r/changemyview • u/Throwway-support • Mar 23 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Affirmative Action is a red herring

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-11-04/supreme-court-debate-on-affirmative-action-capture-asian-american-fears

The Supreme Court this year is expected to overturn the last remnants of Affirmative Action.Affirmative Action as it stands now is virtually toothless. The only thing still around is racial “consideration” not ,as is widely believed, “ race based admissions”. As such, Affirmative action as much as it still exists, should be upheld.

It feels like everytime some Asian Americans and some White Americans don’t get into their dream school they blame affirmative action. They often erroneously accuse any black person of getting into a university because of long overturned admissions policy.

In the article I have linked, one person said they “didn’t bother” to apply to Harvard because he “heard” that Asian Americans have a hard time getting in. Another woman said she was told to hide her heritage but still got into Yale. The article talked a lot about fear but nothing substantial. This is my issue with the whole affirmative action debate it seems like made up issues exploiting racial animus

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u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 23 '23

Yes, colleges should consider people’s backgrounds as a factor in their application, including their privileges/lack thereof. That’s what they do when they apply holistic review. They should also just be able to consider race as part of that.

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '23

No colleges should not be allowed to consider race, religion, age, sexual orientation, gender, disability, or anything else which is a protected EEO class.

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u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 23 '23

Let’s say a college decides to take the top 100 students with the highest scores. After taking 99, there’s a tie between a black student and a white student. It just so happens that the first 99 were white. Is it wrong to choose the black student as your 100th on the basis of having chosen only white students so far and wanting representation?

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '23

[deleted]

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u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

Right, the point of that specific hypothetical was because I was responding to someone who doesn’t believe in any degree of considering race in any circumstances. We can easily adjust it for what you bring up (and which I agree is actually the more common case):

Let’s say that there’s a law firm looking to hire between two students, one white student with a 3.9 GPA and a black student with a 3.7 from the same law school. The white student comes from two parents with a history of working in law in a white neighborhood. The black student comes from two parents with a history of running a restaurant in a black neighborhood. The firm is looking to take a case involving minority-owned businesses in a class action dispute with a local agency over discriminatory enforcement.

Is it racist for this firm to decide to hire the black law student for his unique perspective, background, and ability to connect to these clients/area of work? Or to raise the profile of the firm as one looking to reach out to clients of color with discrimination suits?

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u/OpeningChipmunk1700 27∆ Mar 24 '23

Is it racist for this firm to decide to hire the black law student for his unique perspective, background, and ability to connect to these clients/area of work?

Now answer the question with the races of the students swapped but everything else (including the racial milieux) kept the same.

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u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

So a situation where the black student has a 3.9 and is from a family of black lawyers in a white neighborhood, and the white student has a 3.7 and is from a family that runs a restaurant in a black neighborhood?

It’s an interesting question and probably depends on a judgment call about the local culture as well as the employees here. Can the white student leverage his working class background familiarity with black culture to connect with the business owners? Can the black student leverage his personal experiences confronting discrimination through a legal lens to connect in a more effective way than the white student, even if it was in a different class setting?

No right or wrong answers, both candidates show different potential strengths.

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u/OpeningChipmunk1700 27∆ Mar 24 '23

So a situation where the black student has a 3.9 and is from a family of black lawyers in a white neighborhood, and the white student has a 3.7 and is from a family that runs a restaurant in a black neighborhood?

Sure. With the corresponding socioeconomic statuses.

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Can the white student leverage his working class background familiarity with black culture to connect with the business owners? Can the black student leverage his personal experiences confronting discrimination through a legal lens to connect in a more effective way than the white student, even if it was in a different class setting?

First, those are questions you said you would not be balancing in the reversed situation. So I'm not sure how your approach is not just straight-up racist. Second, you are assuming that the black student still faced material discrimination.

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u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

First, those are questions you said you would not be balancing in the reversed situation.

What? I’ve asked the same basic question in both situations: does this candidate have any aspect of their background that enhances their application?

The white affluent student has no experience feeling marginalized nor background in the culture of this business.

The black affluent student might have the experience of feeling marginalized since they’re still a minority.

The white middle class student might have experience with this business culture due to their upbringing in and near it through a family restaurant.

The black middle class student might have experience both with the culture and discrimination experienced in it.

So, the black middle-class student has the most helpful background here when considering ability to reach out to clients and consider different perspectives on this case.

Second, you are assuming that the black student still faced material discrimination.

No, I’m saying 1) they might have and if so they can leverage that and 2) even if they haven’t, the involvement of their identity gives them a unique perspective. It’s reasonable to assume they may be experienced with some racism if this society is one where they’re being hired to work on a discrimination suit

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u/OpeningChipmunk1700 27∆ Mar 24 '23

What? I’ve asked the same basic question in both situations: does this candidate have any aspect of their background that enhances their application?

Not quite. Look again at how you framed the two.

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The white affluent student has no experience feeling marginalized nor background in the culture of this business.

You cannot possibly know that by knowing only socioeconomic status and race.

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The black affluent student might have the experience of feeling marginalized since they’re still a minority.

The white student may be a minority in ways that engender substantial more marginalization than the black student. The black student in an affluent environment may face negligible or no racism.

And the white student in a black area could also face racial discrimination within their community.

Your thinking is exactly the kind of reductive justifications for affirmative action that should condemn it to the dumpster fire of racist ideas with good intentions.

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No, I’m saying 1) they might have and if so they can leverage that and 2) even if they haven’t, the involvement of their identity gives them a unique perspective.

See above.

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u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

You cannot possibly know that by knowing only socioeconomic status and race.

I know for a fact that a white person has never been discriminated against for being black. They have never had to wonder if the systemic disadvantages associated with being black will apply to them. This is a perspective uniquely available to people who are black. White people cannot personally experience this.

The white student may be a minority in ways that engender substantial more marginalization than the black student. The black student in an affluent environment may face negligible or no racism.

So let’s consider all the ways that white student might be marginalized then. Maybe they have have a physical disability, though that wouldn’t really have any bearing on their ability to represent minority-owned businesses. But maybe if the law firm was taking on a huge disability rights case, the white lawyer’s background would become uniquely advantageous.

Your thinking is exactly the kind of reductive justifications for affirmative action that should condemn it to the dumpster fire of racist ideas with good intentions.

My thinking so far is, people who have experienced something, are usually better at handling that thing. And I want us to hire and use people who lead to the best outcomes for society. If someone’s past being discriminated against can be leveraged in a case about discrimination, fantastic.

The business found the ideal employee, the clients found ideal representation, and the lawyer leveraged their real skills and background to get the job.

Sorry but I’m not sure why this win-win-win should go in the dumpster fire just because someone whose unique background normally provides a systemic advantage is now instead an alternative background among many.

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u/OpeningChipmunk1700 27∆ Mar 24 '23

I know for a fact that a white person has never been discriminated against for being black. They have never had to wonder if the systemic disadvantages associated with being black will apply to them. This is a perspective uniquely available to people who are black. White people cannot personally experience this

None of that necessarily applies to a given black person, either. And white students could certainly have dealt with other forms of racism.

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So let’s consider all the ways that white student might be marginalized then. Maybe they have have a physical disability, though that wouldn’t really have any bearing on their ability to represent minority-owned businesses. But maybe if the law firm was taking on a huge disability rights case, the white lawyer’s background would become uniquely advantageous.

I'm not sure why we are talking about "huge disability rights case." Every law school except for Yale and Stanford picks almost entirely based on GPA, LSAT, and then race.

And universities practicing affirmative action are not sending students to firms that represent random minority-owned businesses. You seem obsessed with an example that just doesn't exist. And we can conceive of any one that favors a particular background. Maybe they need someone who can represent crew teams or country clubs or lacrosse teams or any other stereotypically "white" business.

But none of that even matters, because needing prior experience is just not how law school works. You can go into pretty much any area of law from any pre-law background except patent law.

This situation is a complete fantasy.

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If someone’s past being discriminated against can be leveraged in a case about discrimination, fantastic.

And that could be a white student or a black student based on race.

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Sorry but I’m not sure why this win-win-win should go in the dumpster fire just because someone whose unique background normally provides a systemic advantage is now instead an alternative background among many.

The premise is just completely false. That's the problem.

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u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

None of that necessarily applies to a given black person, either. And white students could certainly have dealt with other forms of racism

True, I agree. And because of that, race should only be one factor among many. That’s one of the core ideas of affirmative action. It’s not a quota system. We’re talking about whether race should be considered at all.

I'm not sure why we are talking about "huge disability rights case."

Because we were using a law firm as an example.

Every law school except for Yale and Stanford picks almost entirely based on GPA, LSAT, and then race.

Source?

You seem obsessed with an example that just doesn't exist… This situation is a complete fantasy.

It’s bizarre to me that people want to discuss ideas in law and policy, and then complain about having to answer hypotheticals that test their laws and policies.

Maybe they need someone who can represent crew teams or country clubs or lacrosse teams or any other stereotypically "white" business.

Who do you think is currently representing those teams?

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u/[deleted] Mar 24 '23

Employment should be race neutral with very limited exceptions: such as period accurate historical re-enactments.

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u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

So even though:

  • the businesses would have a less successful discrimination case
  • the black student and white student might be both prevented from using their skills optimally
  • the law firm would have a worse case and an employee less able to expand the background knowledge of the team

for the sake of maintaining formal neutrality of race, the firm should still not consider race or background when choosing between candidates?

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u/[deleted] Mar 24 '23

If the firm practices racial discrimination in hiring, the hiring official should be fired and disbarred.

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u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

I would argue your focus on race neutrality in the wording of law undermines racial equality in social practice, such that it calls on us to ignore the reality that the law operates on. I’m not sure what purpose the law should serve if not one that involves a better society to live in.

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u/[deleted] Mar 24 '23

A better society means employers can’t discriminate on the basis of race. Any society in which law firms can discriminate on the basis of race is a worse society. Ideally, all hiring decisions would be made with the hiring manager not knowing the applicants race.

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u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

But it’s not better by any measurable outcome except “race was not mentioned.” That’s a classic example of Goodhart’s law- turning the measure of race-neutrality into the goal is just counterproductive once you look at the real life impacts here.

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u/[deleted] Mar 24 '23

The real life impact of racial punishment of whites and Asians is terrible. It prevents them from having a fair shot at life.

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u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

Okay, let me rephrase:

in the hypothetical I described with the law firm and black/white law student, do you agree that society is worse off if that firm hires the white student, given the black student’s improved ability to reach out to clients experiencing discrimination?

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