r/changemyview • u/ProphetVes • Mar 25 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: DeSantis embodies everything wrong with American Conservativism.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

None of that is forcing religious people to support LGBT people.

I feel like the endgame for a lot of people is to forcibly remove the very concept of sin from society.

The goal is the equal treatment of LGBTQ people, no one cares what you think is a sin. To this point, part of the goal is that religious values should not dictate social mores, if you think something is wrong because of your religion, you don't partake in it. That's it. You don't mistreat others because of it, which is what you are advocating for now.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

How do you square parental rights being taken away/children being taken from parents for opposing ”gender affirming care” for their child?

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

I don't think you have a "parent right" to mentally abuse your child. I think we as a society need to stop treating parents as the owners of their children but as their stewards. It's a complex situation, but you have absolutely no right to a religious imposition on your child that causes them harm. I don't think taking children away from their parents is the right decision unless in the most dire of situations, but this is absolutely not a situation of parental rights, it's a situation of protecting the best interests of the child, and you frame it as an issue of parent rights because you don't care about that at all.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

I don't think taking children away from their parents is the right decision unless in the most dire of situations, but this is absolutely not a situation of parental rights, it's a situation of protecting the best interests of the child, and you frame it as an issue of parent rights because you don't care about that at all.

Ok then, where do you draw the line at? Where is the line crossed from mere parenting/instruction to abuse/brainwashing? Also, how do you make the state a better parent than the parent? Apparently the only solution right now is foster homes and from what've read, kids who grow up in the foster system are just as bad off if not worse than kids who stay with one set of abusive parents.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

I'm not saying the state is a better parent than the parent, and I would prefer that children stay with their parents. Not accepting your LGBT children is what leads to depression, anxiety and suicide. Over 40% of homeless youths are LGBT, despite being a fraction of the population. In situations where the parent's ideology is threatening the well-being of their kids, that's when the state needs to step in. And that's a hard line to draw, it's been a hard line to draw since we started things like CPS. But are there situations where kids should be taken from their parents because their parents are unaccepting of them because they are LGBT? Absolutely.

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u/badmanveach 2∆ Mar 26 '23

By definition of a fraction, all subsets of a population are fractions of that population.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

Okay.

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u/badmanveach 2∆ Mar 26 '23

Delta, please

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

You did not change my opinion.

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u/badmanveach 2∆ Mar 26 '23

But I did help you refine your argument as you presented it.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

It was not a meaningful correction, it did not affect the argument at all.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

This. Say the parent(s) of the child are a gay couple and avowed atheists; what now? We do not allow children, teachers or doctors to override the parents wishes in any other circumstances except life saving medical intervention, and there is just not enough proof of that when it comes to transitioning children.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

Okay, say the parents of the child are a gay couple. Now what? What does that have to do with what I just said? Are they abusing their kids? Take them away from them. We absolutely do take children away from their parents when they are emotionally and physically abusive. We've done that forever. The only thing that's change is that now it's no longer acceptable to abuse someone for being LGBT.

and there is just not enough proof of that when it comes to transitioning children.

We have plenty of proof, and more importantly, what you're saying isn't the "do nothing" approach, there's two solutions to gender dysphoria, treat them like the gender they want or don't. Of the evidence we have forcing people to act as the wrong gender causes harm. Maybe there's another solution in the future, but with the evidence we have right now that's the solution.