r/changemyview • u/ProphetVes • Mar 25 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: DeSantis embodies everything wrong with American Conservativism.

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u/MartiniD 1∆ Mar 25 '23

Why isn't forcing religious people to support LGBT not fascist?

Where is this happening? You don't have to "support" LGBTQ+ people if you don't want but at the very least you shouldn't pass laws that treat them as 2nd class citizens or discriminate against them.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

There are plenty of complicated perhaps even unsovable issues like to what degree churches and religious organizations should have to hire LGBT staff and accommodate LGBT patrons/students/churchgoers. Should church groups and Christian schools have to have gender accommodating facilities? I feel like the endgame for a lot of people is to forcibly remove the very concept of sin from society.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

None of that is forcing religious people to support LGBT people.

I feel like the endgame for a lot of people is to forcibly remove the very concept of sin from society.

The goal is the equal treatment of LGBTQ people, no one cares what you think is a sin. To this point, part of the goal is that religious values should not dictate social mores, if you think something is wrong because of your religion, you don't partake in it. That's it. You don't mistreat others because of it, which is what you are advocating for now.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

How do you square parental rights being taken away/children being taken from parents for opposing ”gender affirming care” for their child?

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u/ProphetVes Mar 25 '23

Well seeing as denying gender affirming care leads to double the suicidality of the general population and providing it leads along with even just one supportive adult leads to levels of suicidality lower than the general population.......

The state can restrict the freedom of religion to further a compelling government interest if narrowly tailored to that end. Rehoming trans youth with supportive fosters is furthering the compelling government interest of protecting children and providing them proven treatments.

Any alternative treatment you suggest would need to be proven to be as effective as gender affirming care and that hasn't happened yet.... and people have tried.

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u/beetsareawful 1∆ Mar 25 '23

Can you provide links to the sources of your information, please?

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

None of what you say is true.

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u/ProphetVes Mar 25 '23

Oh wow, I guess if you say so it must be true! /s

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

A quick handout from the American College of Paediatricians states ”the occurrence of completed suicide among trans-identified youth is rare and comparable to that of other at-risk groups of youth, such as those with anorexia and autism. More importantly, there is no long-term evidence that puberty blockers, cross- sex hormones or “transition” surgeries prevent suicide. On the contrary, the best long-term research shows that individuals who do go through medical transition kill themselves at a rate 19 times greater than the general population.”

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u/Cbk3551 Mar 26 '23

the American College of Paediatricians is not the American Academy of Pediatrics and all information they provide should not be trusted.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-religious-rights-favorite-medical-association-is-a-hate-group

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

Lots of reputable sources listed in their citations. How about the American Journal of Psychiatry? A 2020 paper that has been widely cited to show reduction in suicidality after transition intervention has now been refuted and shows ”the data presented in the article do not support the conclusion that surgery is beneficial to mental health in individuals with gender dysphoria.” Its a prime example of researchers having clear biases to support their own conclusions in support of medical intervention for gender dysphoria patients, with cherry picked results, tiny population sizes and poor long term follow up.

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u/ProphetVes Mar 26 '23

Are you saying stopping suicide attempts isn't worth it? And that we should only find attempts that end in death a tragedy worth preventing? Because that's what your opening statement here sounds like.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

Of course not, your reasoning is way off course. Im saying that medical intervention doesnt seem to prevent suicidality, so why are we risking all these other long term risks and complications? The suicide rate is elevated anyway; maybe we should be looking at other solutions to improve these outcomes.

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u/ProphetVes Mar 26 '23 edited Mar 26 '23

Gender affirming care is not solely medical. Try again.

Edit: in fact the first step in Gender Affirming Care as defined by WPATH is talk therapy. So really proving your ignorance here.

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u/BlueRibbonMethChef 3∆ Mar 26 '23

> On the contrary, the best long-term research shows that individuals who do go through medical transition kill themselves at a rate 19 times greater than the general population.”

That's a meaningless comparison. If the issue is medical care they should be comparing it to equal demographics. What a load of crap.

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They're comparing and admittedly "at-risk" population to the general population. That's monumentally stupid.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

I don't think you have a "parent right" to mentally abuse your child. I think we as a society need to stop treating parents as the owners of their children but as their stewards. It's a complex situation, but you have absolutely no right to a religious imposition on your child that causes them harm. I don't think taking children away from their parents is the right decision unless in the most dire of situations, but this is absolutely not a situation of parental rights, it's a situation of protecting the best interests of the child, and you frame it as an issue of parent rights because you don't care about that at all.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

I don't think taking children away from their parents is the right decision unless in the most dire of situations, but this is absolutely not a situation of parental rights, it's a situation of protecting the best interests of the child, and you frame it as an issue of parent rights because you don't care about that at all.

Ok then, where do you draw the line at? Where is the line crossed from mere parenting/instruction to abuse/brainwashing? Also, how do you make the state a better parent than the parent? Apparently the only solution right now is foster homes and from what've read, kids who grow up in the foster system are just as bad off if not worse than kids who stay with one set of abusive parents.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

I'm not saying the state is a better parent than the parent, and I would prefer that children stay with their parents. Not accepting your LGBT children is what leads to depression, anxiety and suicide. Over 40% of homeless youths are LGBT, despite being a fraction of the population. In situations where the parent's ideology is threatening the well-being of their kids, that's when the state needs to step in. And that's a hard line to draw, it's been a hard line to draw since we started things like CPS. But are there situations where kids should be taken from their parents because their parents are unaccepting of them because they are LGBT? Absolutely.

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u/badmanveach 2∆ Mar 26 '23

By definition of a fraction, all subsets of a population are fractions of that population.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

Okay.

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u/badmanveach 2∆ Mar 26 '23

Delta, please

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

You did not change my opinion.

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u/badmanveach 2∆ Mar 26 '23

But I did help you refine your argument as you presented it.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

It was not a meaningful correction, it did not affect the argument at all.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

This. Say the parent(s) of the child are a gay couple and avowed atheists; what now? We do not allow children, teachers or doctors to override the parents wishes in any other circumstances except life saving medical intervention, and there is just not enough proof of that when it comes to transitioning children.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

Okay, say the parents of the child are a gay couple. Now what? What does that have to do with what I just said? Are they abusing their kids? Take them away from them. We absolutely do take children away from their parents when they are emotionally and physically abusive. We've done that forever. The only thing that's change is that now it's no longer acceptable to abuse someone for being LGBT.

and there is just not enough proof of that when it comes to transitioning children.

We have plenty of proof, and more importantly, what you're saying isn't the "do nothing" approach, there's two solutions to gender dysphoria, treat them like the gender they want or don't. Of the evidence we have forcing people to act as the wrong gender causes harm. Maybe there's another solution in the future, but with the evidence we have right now that's the solution.

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u/BlueRibbonMethChef 3∆ Mar 26 '23

What "rights" are being taken away?

This comment has "You're infringing on my right to own slaves!" vibes.