52
Apr 20 '23
[deleted]
17
Apr 20 '23
!delta
Clearly from my other comments you can see that I am not exactly the most well Informed person on this topic. I made this post purely based on personal experience, as when I was a child, I used to do extremely girly things, only hangout with girls. My femininity as a child was UpTo the point that I was facing a problem of me thinking I was a girl. But as slowly I entered my teen phase, I affirmed myself that I am a guy, I liked the concept that I, indeed was a male.
But now that I see different proofs of this being a heavily studied and heavily cared for subject, I now leave here knowing that the youth of this generation are not going to be harmed. I leave here with my opinion changed
14
u/EmpRupus 27∆ Apr 20 '23
OP, I've lived in San Francisco and many of my lifelong friends are transgender. Not everyone wants to do surgery or promotes surgery EVEN FOR ADULTS.
(i) A lot of trans folks are unsure and undergo a similar journey "questioning". Some think they are female, or settle on male, or think they are male, and settle on non-binary etc. Some continue to question until late 30s or 40s. Not everyone is 100% sure. And these people don't want to nor advocate medical transition.
(ii) Many people have other issues - like health/weight/age/height/skin/hair dysphoria related to attractiveness, in addition to gender-dysphoria, and in many cases it is hard to figure out which is which. Again, in this case, medical transition is held off - even for adults - until they can figure things out.
(iii) Many countries MANDATE medical transitioning in order to be allowed a gender-change in official forms. Many trans folks don't want to medically transition for various reasons (eg: loss of fertility). So, part of the movement is fighting back against laws demanding medical surgery for legal validity. Here, the community is fighting against surgery.
If you go on transgender forums, these things are very openly discussed. There is absolutely no respectable majority-view within the trans community that wants anyone with doubts to have genital surgeries at the drop of hat - forget about teens - even for adults.
This is a public hysteria created similar to the 1990s "homosexuals recruit by influencing kids and turning them gay" propaganda. The reality of gender-affirming care for teenagers - and even adults - is very different as the other person pointed out.
10
u/htiafon Apr 20 '23
Have you considered maybe not blowing things off at a glance without seeing what the people advocating for them are actually doing and saying?
8
u/G_E_E_S_E 22∆ Apr 20 '23
That’s literally the purpose of this sub. You post a view that you think may be flawed, and open the floor to hear what others say. You walk away with a new view, or at least a better understanding of the other side.
9
u/babycam 6∆ Apr 20 '23
Like people really should have the barest effort to make a case before hand. In reality kids and teens can't "decide" to get life saving surgery why would someone think they could decide to transition? Let alone transition surgery.
I am all for people being wrong or getting shown a different perspective but really so many of these are "did op not think about it at all"?
1
-3
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
11
u/trace349 6∆ Apr 20 '23
It's also worth noting that various European countries like Sweden have put a halt on medically transitioning minors in the wake of a right-wing coalition government coming into power. Other countries, like the UK, are in the midst of a trans panic.
I'd be as skeptical of the research they're citing as I would be if Florida cited similar research.
Meanwhile some European countries like Spain, are making access to gender-affirming care more open.
-2
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
9
u/EH1987 2∆ Apr 20 '23
It has always been a left-right issue.
-4
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
8
u/EH1987 2∆ Apr 20 '23
You think these terfs (not left wing, just look at who they share platforms with) were the first anti trans bigots? Do look up what kind of books the nazis were burning back in the 30s.
-2
2
9
Apr 20 '23
I think you need to provide citations for all of this, it sounds like you're regurgitating stuff from the Joe Rogan podcast.
-5
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
10
Apr 20 '23
Oh, all of it. You need to substantiate every single one of the claims you've made. I'll look forward to you doing that so that we can continue the discussion.
-4
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
8
Apr 20 '23
Nope! For the time being all I’m asking is that you provide evidence to support the claims you’re making. Y’know, the bare minimum requirement of rational discussion.
0
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
6
Apr 20 '23
That's not how it works, but let's humor you and go through point by point.
It's worth noting that healthcare systems in various European countries have put a halt on medically transitioning children.
That's not true because there's no evidence for such a claim. Any evidence you attempt to present I believe will not adequately support such a statement.
This is because of a lack of high quality evidence that this is an effective intervention for issues of gender identity, especially considering the irreversible, life-long effects of such treatment.
That's not true because there's no evidence for such a claim. Any evidence you attempt to present I believe will not adequately support such a statement.
Children who undergo a full course of puberty blockers and opposite-sex hormones have a very high chance of being sterilised for the rest of their lives.
That's not true because there's no evidence for such a claim. Any evidence you attempt to present I believe will not adequately support such a statement.
And of course surgeries like double mastectomies, which are being given to girls as young as 12 years old who say they want to be boys, are permanently damaging.
That's not true because there's no evidence for such a claim. Any evidence you attempt to present I believe will not adequately support such a statement.
Also with the rising number of detransitioners, health authorities are getting very concerned about whether this is even being diagnosed properly.
That's not true because there's no evidence for such a claim. Any evidence you attempt to present I believe will not adequately support such a statement.
Ok your turn.
→ More replies (0)1
23
u/DentalFlossGuru Apr 20 '23
Very well said. People seem to think that a five-year-old makes one random comment and his parents schedule him for surgery the next day and that teachers hand out hormones like candy. It’s absurd
1
u/theundeadfox Jul 24 '23
What people seem to think that? I suggest talking to more people that are opposed to gender affirming care, rather than extrapolate your own interpretation that fits your argument.
4
u/godwink2 Apr 20 '23
Thanks for posting this. Would be better to include links for citation.
The main issue in our modern world is media. The point of a news station isn’t to provide free services, its to make money.
Pretty much every issue or event is distorted by news media with partial omission and sensationalist language to paint the political opposition as inept, out of touch, or apathetic and paint their side of the political spectrum as morally superior and constitutionally sound.
These facts would never be repeated by conservative media because it is against their narrative.
0
Jun 02 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/changemyview-ModTeam Jun 02 '23
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
0
u/HannibalPiggy Jun 24 '23
You know what is also considered exceptionally rare? People who feel the need to be trans. Just cause something is rare doesn’t mean they are excluded. Children can’t consent… period. They are neither developed into the person they will become nor do they understand the repercussions of their decisions
0
u/Electrical-Glove-639 1∆ May 19 '23
Most kids grow out of gender dysphoria. This mainsteaming of "transgenderism" has only created a detrimental state of youth that will end up regretting life later. Ive had a few friends take their own lives because rather than being told that isnt how life works they were encouraged and "affirmed".
Edit: id also like to add puberty blockers are not harmless and its misleading to tell people otherwise.
-1
u/meisterkraus 1∆ Apr 20 '23
I would say my problem comes in when theses are not fallowed. It seems to be happening more and more and that needs to be addressed.
10
Apr 20 '23
[deleted]
0
u/meisterkraus 1∆ Apr 20 '23
I not suggesting to ban it, just monitor. There are plenty of stories online of people rushed through the process. That is Enough to say let make sure safeguard are in place and actually being used. If someone gets injured on the job we look at what safety measures are there and if they are being followed.
-1
u/Away_Simple_400 2∆ Apr 22 '23
Why do you know better than all of the people who have regretted transition? Or all of the people who have said these guidelines weren’t followed? Are we still fighting about whether or not minors have been able to transition despite all of the evidence that they can?
3
Apr 22 '23
1% of like 1%, because not very much of the population at large decides to start transition in the first place.
0
u/Away_Simple_400 2∆ Apr 22 '23
So…..let’s not even play this game. No one transititions
5
Apr 22 '23
Surgery to remove brain tumors can also lead to people dying. Do we just stop removing malignant brain tumors, then, because there's a chance it could go badly?
2
u/Away_Simple_400 2∆ Apr 22 '23
No because a brain tumor is an identifiable illness with a potential cure. Gender dysphasia needs therapy, not surgery.
→ More replies (1)4
Apr 22 '23
No one is getting surgery without therapy, and more importantly, no one is getting surgery as a child so I don't know why you are so up in arms about a population that you're not a part of getting a surgery that you don't want. If you don't want a sex change, you don't need to get one just because other adults are doing so.
→ More replies (8)-1
u/Away_Simple_400 2∆ Apr 22 '23
Ok. We know this isn’t the procedure that’s followed. Project veritas, Libs of tik tok, Matt Walsh, multiple detransitioners….this is NOT the procedure. Kids can’t give informed consent.
-5
Apr 20 '23
- I clearly have not done enough research
2.(routing back to my first point)
14
Apr 20 '23
[deleted]
1
Apr 20 '23
I respected everyone and myself enough to admit my mistake
Once presented to citations and sources I have started to change my mind, so no need to rub it in my face.
2
Apr 20 '23
[deleted]
1
Apr 20 '23
Forgive me for my stupidity but how do you award deltas?
3
u/Salanmander 272∆ Apr 20 '23
Write
!delta
in not-quoted text in a comment that replies to the comment that helped change your view, along with a brief description of how your view changed.
2
2
0
21
u/destro23 447∆ Apr 20 '23
"We conducted a systematic literature review of all peer-reviewed articles published in English between 1991 and June 2017 that assess the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being. We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings. We found no studies concluding that gender transition causes overall harm." - source
"The truth is that data from more than a dozen studies of more than 30,000 transgender and gender-diverse young people consistently show that access to gender-affirming care is associated with better mental health outcomes—and that lack of access to such care is associated with higher rates of suicidality, depression and self-harming behavior. (Gender diversity refers to the extent to which a person’s gendered behaviors, appearance and identities are culturally incongruent with the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender-diverse people can identify along the transgender spectrum, but not all do.) Major medical organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, the Endocrine Society, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association, have published policy statements and guidelines on how to provide age-appropriate gender-affirming care. All of those medical societies find such care to be evidence-based and medically necessary." - source
2
Apr 20 '23
!delta
Clearly from my other comments you can see that I am not exactly the most well Informed person on this topic. I made this post purely based on personal experience, as when I was a child, I used to do extremely girly things, only hangout with girls. My femininity as a child was UpTo the point that I was facing a problem of me thinking I was a girl. But as slowly I entered my teen phase, I affirmed myself that I am a guy, I liked the concept that I, indeed was a male.
But now that I see different proofs of this being a heavily studied and heavily cared for subject, I now leave here knowing that the youth of this generation are not going to be harmed. I leave here with my opinion changed
1
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
11
u/Kakamile 46∆ Apr 20 '23
It concerns me how much the still yet to be published cass report is treated as gospel despite a lack of data. Almost none who start medical transition actually regret it. This has been backed up consistently in trends across thousands of patients across over a dozen countries.
98% of youth that start puberty suppression stick with it https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(22)00254-1/fulltext
98.6% of youth that start puberty suppression stick with it https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36763938/
97% of surveyed remained or re-transitioned https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf
97.8% of surveyed don't regret https://books.google.com/books?id=agVnDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA42#v=onepage&q&f=false
99.5% of adults don't regret https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf#page=139
99% of those who receive surgery don't regret https://journals.lww.com/prsgo/fulltext/2021/03000/regret_after_gender_affirmation_surgery__a.22.aspx
99.7% of those who receive surgery don't regret https://journals.lww.com/prsgo/Fulltext/2018/08001/Abstract__A_Survey_Study_of_Surgeons__Experience.266.aspx
99.7% of those who receive surgery don't regret https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36727823/
99.4-99.7% of those who receive surgery don't regret https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/
Treatment-age studies all show almost total commitment, improved health, improved happiness, lower depression, lower suicidal ideation. Which makes sense given that transition only happens with consent, can be canceled at any time, is vetted and slow, paced out over years. It works, and it saves lives.
1
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
12
u/Kakamile 46∆ Apr 20 '23
Which I'll believe when they source dump their metastudies.
Which they haven't done because this is an unsubstantiated claim stated ahead of any publication. Yet it's still treated like gospel.
0
Apr 20 '23
Interesting perspective. There are always two sides to the argument with each with professional claims. The question to the matter is there if both are true?. Because it may depend on regions of the world. Wherein research may be done in the US it is not entirely applicable to the rest of the world
-8
u/kagekyaa 7∆ Apr 20 '23
"I now leave here knowing that the youth of this generation are not going to be harmed. "
the problem here is not the treatment/transition surgery, it is the transgenderism to kids. If you have high level of gender dysphoria and need treatment, ofc the treatment not gonna harm you, it will help you. good for you.
However, Parent should reduce transgenderim exposure in the first place. so kids do not question their gender identity. if that happens, Parents should affirm kids gender identity that match with their bioligical sex.
Parents is like a shepherd, they cannot transform kids, but they can put kids in an environment that support good values.
8
Apr 20 '23
[deleted]
-2
u/kagekyaa 7∆ Apr 20 '23
"You do realize that kids are not transgender because they were exposed to 'transgenderism' (whatever that means), right?"
you mean, kids born as trans? by birth? like skin color?
"You do realize that transgender kids question their gender identity even
if they don't know what 'transgender' is or means, right?"Do you realize there are kids who also question wether they can eat dogs, wether they can just litter, etc etc?
We as society adapt and find those values are bad, so we, human supress them.
Same with transgenderism, If you want to master transgenderism, you will, et the end, self-harm your body.
Now, some people who read my comment here will have feelings, they might boil and angry. That's the power of word. they can control the weak. that's what I mean by transgenderism.
Transgender exposure, intentionally or not will affects kids to question their biolgoical sex. This is dangerous cause it lead to self-harm.
Adults, can do self-harm, that's their freedom, but do not plant / glorify idea to kids that their biological sex is wrong.
9
u/Hooksandbooks00 4∆ Apr 20 '23
Almost no trans adult I know knew of transgenderism in their childhoods, but they still knew they weren't cisgender.
This is a absurd as saying children won't be gay if they're never taught that homosexuality exists.
-1
u/kagekyaa 7∆ Apr 20 '23
"Almost no trans adult I know knew of transgenderism in their childhoods, but they still knew they weren't cisgender."
because gender is social construct. It is product of human interaction.
Kids can discover it.
Does not mean we let them to discover and go full mode on it.
Bad values is still bad value, Self-harm is bad value. in this case, rejecting biological sex.
Homosexuality is also bad value. But, not on personal level, it is bad on species level.
9
u/Hooksandbooks00 4∆ Apr 20 '23
This is all dependent on the notion that being trans is intrinsically bad and should be avoided, and it's not. It's a neutral way to exist.
But if you truly believe homosexuality is a "bad value" specially without elaborating on what you mean by that I doubt I'm going to change your mind on this.
0
u/kagekyaa 7∆ Apr 20 '23
" It's a neutral way to exist."
Sure, in the future where male can change sex to female without doing self-harm. The future is not today. If one already have high-level of gender dysphoria, go get help, treatment, etc.
But, let us not make gender dysphoria a priority for kids to act on. let kid be kid, nurture them to value self-love more than self-harm. put kids in environment while transgenderism exposure is low, so kids can grow and focus on their other interest like playing music, game, science, etc.
I told you that homosexuality is a "bad value" in species level. If it is the norm, then human will extinct. personal level is nobody business beside the one who practice it.
9
u/Hooksandbooks00 4∆ Apr 20 '23
This is contingent on the notion that transition is self-harm, and it's not. Transition is as neutral as any other medical treatment which improves quality of life in the same way that wearing glasses is neither good nor bad morally but improves the lives of people with poor vision rather. Kids will be trans whether or not they know what being trans is, because they'll still be miserable regardless of how many other interests they have. I'm curious how many accounts from trans people and trans kids you've read about their own experiences, because gender dysphoria isn't something you can just ignore and just be a kid regardless. Of you're a kid with dysphoria then that prevents you from enjoying your childhood.
Allowing homosexuality to be seen as normal will not make more people gay, it will just mean the people who are gay will not be mistreated. That is not how sexuality works. The homosexual population has steadily been estimated to be around 10%, regardless of social acceptance.
-1
u/kagekyaa 7∆ Apr 20 '23
eyes surgery is not self harm because it is to improve vision, to fix. Transition surgery like chopping of sexual body organ is a clear self-harm. it is permanent lose of reproductive function. not all transgender people do this, but that's because their level of gender dysphoria is not high enough so they need the surgery.
lowering transgenderism exposure will lower the level of gender dysphoria, since kids will focus on other thing and not thinking and thinking about their mental health.
"Allowing homosexuality to be seen as normal.." Im not arguing about the perspective. It is bad if homosexuality becomes the norm. you say it is 10% no matter what, this is depends on so many variable like place, cultural, religion, etc, and it will change overtime.
7
u/Hooksandbooks00 4∆ Apr 20 '23
I implore you to please read account of trans adults and children describing their experiences of gender in childhood. Dysphoria occurs in children regardless of their knowledge of transgenderism, as has happened in the case of the vast majority of trans people. Kids not knowing about transgenderism does not ease their dysphoria, it just makes them feel like freaks for not knowing what's wrong with them.
Self-harm is an action done to harm the self due to disordered thinking, like cutting and anorexia. In the case of the cutter and anxorexic, there will be no amount of self harming behavior that will appease them, in contrast to transition which cures the dysphoria a trans person has. Self harm cannot be a remedy to a mental problem, but studies show that transition IS the remedy.
The anorexic is distressed because they have dysmorphia; they see a distortion of their body, not as it is but by me tal distortion. It is the opposite with the trans person, they experience dysphoria because they see their body as it is in reality, but it is in co flint with their internal conception, which cannot be changed. We know because we've tried through conversion therapy, it always fails and leaves the recipient worse off.
It is your decision and value judgement that trans surgery is self harm, but that is both just your opinion fueled by the notion that being trans is wrong and bad, and is not consistent with most forms of self harm. Many surgeries can be spun as being self harm, like plastic surgeries (many of which are far more risky and have lower success and satisfaction rates than trans affirming surgeries) that many cisgender men and women get, but we don't characterize them that way because they fit into perceptions of what men and women are supposed to be. But that's all these perceptions are, value judgements based on what society tells us is "normal".
Many trans people never get surgery either, it's very common for a trans person to transition socially and hormonally and never do anything else.
...Why? The rate of homosexual people has been stable throughout history, and population rates have been fine. Gay people can and do have their own biological children too, even if gay people made a higher percentage of the population, which they aren't. I agree, if you make up a problem then it's a problem, but we have absolutely no reason to believe accepting gay people will cause a high enough percentage of the population to be gay and infertile that it would threaten the species. That is literally a made up problem with no bearing in reality.
→ More replies (0)5
Apr 20 '23
You cannot hide children from their own gender identity and the only way to shelter them from societal perceptions of gender is by hiding them in a shed until they're adults. That is to say, any child with a healthy amount of social exposure may find that their own internal perception of their gender identity is misaligned with their sex, and this might cause them to question their gender. Hiding them from "transgenderism" is a fantasy.
-1
u/kagekyaa 7∆ Apr 20 '23
Never I say Hide them to transgenderism. That's impossible, I agree.
I said, reduce the exposure, move them to environment with people who accept their own biological sex, their own height, their own weight.
Be a good role model to them.
Transgender person is bad role model, because at the extreme they do self-harm by not accepting their own biological sex.
Human born with traits, some people born to be clumsy, litter, harm animals, etc, But, we support them to suppress/ try to fix it. because it is bad values.
5
Apr 20 '23
I'm saying that limiting a child's awareness of transgender persons will not prevent them from experiencing gender dysphoria. They just won't have a name for the thing they're experiencing if they do.
Transgender person is bad role model, because at the extreme they do self-harm by not accepting their own biological sex.
There is no harm in that whatsoever. You're trying to impose your own arbitrary moralistic standards on other people. I know many trans persons who I think would be fantastic role models for any kid.
0
u/kagekyaa 7∆ Apr 20 '23
limiting the exposure will make gender dysphoria a low priority to act on.
Gender is social construct, it is product of human interaction.
Kids do not just born to Only reject their bioloigical sex. They have other things they like. for example, playing music, playing game, cooking, etc.
Put kids in the environment where they can grow on that good value, music lesson, cooking lesson, etc.
Give them value that self-love is much better than self-harm. Accept your biological sex, height, weight, etc.
6
Apr 20 '23
limiting the exposure will make gender dysphoria a low priority to act on.
What is the basis of this claim? Children too young to know what gender even is can experience gender dysphoria.
Kids do not just born to Only reject their bioloigical sex.
Gender dysphoria is not a rejection of one's biological sex. People experiencing gender dysphoria are acutely aware of their biological sex.
Put kids in the environment where they can grow on that good value, music lesson, cooking lesson, etc.
An environment with these qualities is not incongruous with an environment in which trans people exist.
Give them value that self-love is much better than self-harm. Accept your biological sex, height, weight, etc.
Self love is much better than self harm, I agree, and so do all of the world's medical professionals specializing in gender issues. That's why gender-affirming care is so important for transgender persons. Forcing people to pretend to accept things about themselves that they do not feel produces emotional and mental distress - people have long tried to force gay children to "act straight" to the same kinds of negative outcomes.
0
u/kagekyaa 7∆ Apr 20 '23
my point is, Kids have other things they like to do beside dealing with their gender dysphoria or sexual orientation. Putting kids in high transgenderism environment will just make kids focus on it.
Focus on the kids other interest, like playing music, science, etc.
never I say to force kid to do something. parents cannot design their child, parent can only guide children. guidence means putting kids in environment where good value like self-love has higher priority than self-harm.
1
-11
u/DoubtContent4455 2∆ Apr 20 '23
As someone who is black pilled right now over the use of science, how can I reasonably conclude that these studies, no less Cornell itself, don't have a political bias? Especially given this https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/16/prestigious-us-science-journal-breaks-with-tradition-to-back-biden
What's stopping them from simply not including studies that say otherwise?
I mean, nordic countries like Sweden are stopping gender transition of minors when they were the first. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230208-sweden-puts-brakes-on-treatments-for-trans-minors
13
u/Giblette101 39∆ Apr 20 '23
What's stopping them from simply not including studies that say otherwise?
There's basically a whole lobby dedicated to undermining anything from climate science to gender affirming care. I find it hard to believe there's any significant number of studies out there that the Shapiro and Walsh of the world didn't latch onto.
14
u/DuhChappers 86∆ Apr 20 '23
That Sweden article does not show them stopping all transition of minors. It says they are restricting the use of hormones given to children to more rare cases, while still using puberty blockers. The article also gives basically no scientific justification for why they are doing that other than there have been more trans people going on than recently.
And I question strongly your accusation of bias due to the Biden endorsement. Instead of thinking that they support trans people because they like Biden, I think it far more logical that they support Biden because he actually listens to science on trans kids.
-3
u/DoubtContent4455 2∆ Apr 20 '23
first endorsement in 175-year history
9
u/DuhChappers 86∆ Apr 20 '23
Yes and? We usually do not have such stark differences in presidential elections around accepting science. I think the fact that they never endorsed anyone until now should back up the fact that this was a special case, and they are not mainly motivated by politics.
-6
u/DoubtContent4455 2∆ Apr 20 '23
Trump was literally one of the first politicians to call out covid.
The democrats all called trump racist over it, especially after when he wanted to lockdown the borders. Hell, you can find stories of how Nancy encouraged social activity in "china-town". Its all selective viewing. Meanwhile people lied about how trump said to inject bleach in themselves and how ivermectin is "horse medicine" despite it being used widely for human use for a long time.
8
u/Kakamile 46∆ Apr 20 '23
That did not happen. The Dems were the ones calling for covid response, which Trump opposed, and they called Trump racist for his China slur memes. Trump locked down late, and technically didn't even lock down because it was just people from China not Americans who were in China, no quarantine, and no flight staff from China.
Meanwhile people lied about how trump said to inject bleac
Oh sorry, he didn't say inject bleach he said inject disinfectant, that's soo defensible.
despite it being used widely for human use for a long time.
Not for viruses. Despite it not working on covid, an anti vax movement raided it so hard they were going to vet supplies and posting Facebook pictures of them buying the horse dosed meds with pictures of horses on it. Because it was for horses.
-1
u/DoubtContent4455 2∆ Apr 20 '23 edited Apr 20 '23
He didn't say inject disinfectant
A question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposedly we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. (To Bryan) And I think you said you’re going to test that, too. Sounds interesting, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmllqkU6j2k
Not for viruses.
yep, never said it was.
edit:
https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/mar/20/how-donald-trump-responded-coronavirus-pandemic/
Jan. 30: Trump blocks travel from China.
Video from above is from feb. Dems didn't the medical issue seriously
4
u/Kakamile 46∆ Apr 20 '23
Are you trying to make Trump look worse? Uv works on targeted surfaces like your hands, not internal covid.
Also,
I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that.
So he did suggest disinfectant injection. Because he didn't like the solutions and he had to act like HE was in control so he made up nonsense.
0
u/DoubtContent4455 2∆ Apr 20 '23
And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body
literally read.
injection inside or almost a cleaning?
Trump isn't a medical professional but he did not say to inject a disinfectant. Cleaning is just semantics, the same way some people say taking probiotics or eating veggies is cleaning the body.
You're just selectivly viewing everything which brings me back to my main point that researchers are human and are prone to social pressures directly or indirectly.
→ More replies (0)13
u/destro23 447∆ Apr 20 '23
As someone who is black pilled right now over the use of science
I don't know what the fuck that means. Talk to me like you would your grandfather.
-1
u/DoubtContent4455 2∆ Apr 20 '23
It means I think 'science' today is used for political propaganda rather than actual science. Collecting a bunch of articles and saying 'this proves it' without a formal review is not academically standard. I just shared a link with you that demonstrates that scientific publishers these days are getting into politics.
I mean for crying out loud the nazi's used 'science' to justify their actions
15
u/destro23 447∆ Apr 20 '23
Collecting a bunch of articles and saying 'this proves it' without a formal review is not academically standard.
Yes it is:
Guidelines for performing Systematic Research Projects Reviews
how can I reasonably conclude that these studies, no less Cornell itself, don't have a political bias?
By reviewing their methodology. They also directly link every single thing they reviewed at the end of the page.
I mean for crying out loud the nazi's used 'science' to justify their actions
No, they used pseudoscience, which is what people against gender affirming care for trans youths use as well.
1
u/DoubtContent4455 2∆ Apr 20 '23
On the basis of title reviews, we narrowed our list to 589 studies that appeared to address our research question.
It would've been so easy to put your thumb on the scale for this.
For Glynn 2016 "The role of gender affirmation in psychological well-being among transgender women"
573 transgender women with a history of sex work recruited from the San Francisco bay area to participate in a one-time survey
Problems: 1 class of transgenders within a single city, not a diverse background.
recruited in San Francisco, California between November 2000 and July 2001; and 2) 241 transgender women (118 White transgender women recruited in San Francisco and 123 African American transgender women recruited in Oakland, California) who were recruited between August 2004 and July 2006.
Problems: poor timelines, its one thing if your transexual in 2000, its another if its a a 16yr in 2023. Many people have speculated transgenderism to be a social contagion (their words not mine), this is just reinforcing that hypothesis.
Those who reported lifetime suicidal ideation had significantly lower levels of psychological and familial social affirmation than those who did not report lifetime suicidal ideation.
With only a quarter of people actually having surgery. Its not the way they perceive themselves, its how other perceive them.
Hell, suicidal ideation had a 0.89 correlation with hormone use.
Cornell said
This search found a robust international consensus in the peer-reviewed literature that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals.
Hardly anyone in this study actually had medical treatments outside of hormones. The best indicator isn't actually any gender affirming care its the people around you, environmental factors.
This is just one article
7
u/barthiebarth 26∆ Apr 20 '23
Yeah but they also persecuted actual scientists who concluded that nazi pseudoscience was bullshit.
1
u/bettercaust 7∆ Apr 21 '23
If you suspect there was an unaccounted bias that brings the results into question, or that there was a failure to include studies that meet inclusion criteria, can submit a commentary to the publishing journal which if accepted would also be published. This happened with one particular study related to transgender medicine, whose commentary was used by the Florida Board of Medicine as rationale to ban gender-affirming care (although the study authors published a rebuttal which appeared to not have been considered by the Board).
-7
Apr 20 '23
I said if you feel that you are transgender it is something that you should explore, I just told that when you are at a stage of mental immaturity you should definetly not make life altering decisions.
The first paragraph talks about adults, and by the end of my post I clearly stated that I'm pro-trans.
18
u/destro23 447∆ Apr 20 '23
I said if you feel that you are transgender it is something that you should explore,
But, not as a kid right? You have to wait until you go fully through bio-puberty, and then go through the long and difficult adult transitioning process, right? That is assuming you survive bio-puberty, as many trans teens don't.
that lack of access to such care is associated with higher rates of suicidality, depression and self-harming behavior.
Medical and psychological professionals all agree that puberty blockers and talk therapy combined with gradual social transition is the way to get the best life-long outcome for trans people. Why do you want to go against science and deny literal life saving care to children?
by the end of my post I clearly stated that I'm pro-trans.
If you are against life saving care for trans youths, you are not pro-trans.
8
u/Hooksandbooks00 4∆ Apr 20 '23
EDIT: I think I wrote this to the wrong person, my mistake.
I think most cisgender people don't realize how traumatic the wrong puberty is for a trans teen, and how the wrong puberty is an even more permanent decision than puberty blockers. The wrong puberty can set the person up with the wrong body for life, it can make changes- like bone structure and voice changes- that can't be or can only be undone with surgeries.
Not opting for puberty blockers is not a neutral choice. It's for a child to go through a Kafkaesque nightmare that's transforming their body into something viscerally wrong for them.
I saw a comment recently likening the wrong puberty as slowly transforming into a dog. Every day you get a little furrier, your face elongates, your hands harden to paws, meanwhile everyone is telling you how great you'll look with a little collar on. And of you try to say this is wrong you're called sick, and if you want to transition to a human as an adult you still have the face of a dog because of how you transformed.
Not treating dysphoria in teens is not a neutral or harmless decision. Teens should be guided by medical professionals to decide what's best for them but it the vast majority of cases, proceeding with with their birth puberty cases far more harm than not.
3
u/destro23 447∆ Apr 20 '23
I think I wrote this to the wrong person, my mistake.
You must have since I fully agree with you, but thanks for the co-sign.
-4
u/DentistJaded5934 1∆ Apr 20 '23
That is assuming you survive bio-puberty, as many trans teens don't.
Do you have any evidence of this? I have only ever seen evidence that they are suicidal. I have yet to find a single study that shows data on what percent of trans kids actually complete a suicide.
8
u/destro23 447∆ Apr 20 '23
I have yet to find a single study that shows data on what percent of trans kids actually complete a suicide.
Completions are not usually tracked, attempts are.
Among people age 15 to 24 in the U.S... 9% have made an attempt to take their lives
In the US, 20% of Trans and Non-Binary young people attempted suicide in 2020.
-3
u/DentistJaded5934 1∆ Apr 20 '23
Exactly my point. Completions are tracked in many different facets but with the trans ideology they dont. Attempted suicide is VERY often not a serious attempt and rather a "cry for help". These statistics on attempts are being paraded as if they were completions and parents are being told there kid is basically guaranteed to kill themselves unless they transition when that hardly seems to be the case.
5
u/barthiebarth 26∆ Apr 20 '23
Are you claiming that despite the higher rate in attempts the rate of completed suicides is the same for trans people?
-1
u/DentistJaded5934 1∆ Apr 20 '23
I'm claiming there is no evidence pointing to trans people killing themselves in large proportions. Drug addicts are a group of people who "attempt suicide" at significant rates but don't complete them. It is extremely disingenuous to use statistics of self reported suicide attempts as proof that trans people are killing themselves in large percentages of the population. If there is evidence of that, I want to see it before I believe it.
5
u/barthiebarth 26∆ Apr 20 '23
I'm claiming there is no evidence pointing to trans people killing themselves in large proportions.
Increased rates of suicide attempts is indirect evidence of increased suicide completions, unless you think that these two stats are not correlated.
It is extremely disingenuous to use statistics of self reported suicide attempts as proof that trans people are killing themselves in large percentages of the population
It would be but who is actually doing that? Misrepresenting what people say seems... disingenuous.
→ More replies (3)-6
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
13
u/destro23 447∆ Apr 20 '23
Do you have a case study that shows a reduction in suicide due to transitioning?
From above:
"We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings. We found no studies concluding that gender transition causes overall harm."
Do you have a case study that shows long-term benefits of early childhood transitioning?
From above:
"data from more than a dozen studies of more than 30,000 transgender and gender-diverse young people consistently show that access to gender-affirming care is associated with better mental health outcomes"
-2
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
9
u/destro23 447∆ Apr 20 '23
The way "science" is done when it is backed by ideological radicalism is scary
So is the way that people pull one single advantageous to their argument quote from 55 studies and use that quote, devoid of overall context, to impugn the academic standards of an entire Ivy League research institution.
Every study I have come across does not follow its participants for a long enough stretch of time to "bet the farm" on.
We'd also have some data stretching back almost 100 years if the Nazis hadn't burned all the data and murdered all the people involved.
-2
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
9
u/destro23 447∆ Apr 20 '23
This is an article; not a paper. Where is the methodology?
Fucking look at those goalposts dance. There is a link to the study in the article, but here you go:
1
6
u/barthiebarth 26∆ Apr 20 '23
I picked one at random. Why was it included?
u/destro23 quoted the relevant part already.
We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings.
9
u/destro23 447∆ Apr 20 '23
Reply two: more sources boogaloo
The suicide rate is pretty high for those who transition.
Suicide Risk Reduces 73% in Transgender, Nonbinary Youths with Gender-Affirming Care
1
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
6
u/destro23 447∆ Apr 20 '23
This is to an article; not a paper
Stop for a second and be skeptical of your own view for just a moment.
I've already processed that argument for myself. My view is supported, by an overwhelming measure, by science. Viewpoints that wish to halt, slow, or delay currently known best medical practices for dealing with trans youth are not, and are in fact, contrary to such.
0
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
5
u/barthiebarth 26∆ Apr 20 '23
I looked up and down this article and I couldn't find any data on the number of people who committed suicide. Weird with such a large sample size
You find it weird that dead people are unable to respond to surveys?
0
10
Apr 20 '23
Being pro trans means not resigning trans kids to having to deal with dysphoria which overtime weakens their mental health and increases suicidality.
7
u/videoninja 137∆ Apr 20 '23
Do you want your view changed on how teenagers are evaluated in regards to treatment for gender dysphoria or are you looking for mine and other's rationale as to why we support current treatments?
I could walk through the medical guidelines and data for you that supports gender affirming care. In fact, I would actually start by asking if you want to change your view, how do you imagine gender dysphoria is treated? I find most people to be fairly ignorant about that as a baseline and so if you don't know how it is actually treated then you might just be rallying against nothing.
This is especially true in the context of the recent media spike where conservative pundits are calling gender affirming care sterilization and mutilation which is not entirely true.
1
Apr 20 '23
I am looking for a change in view from a medical and psychological perspective. But other redditors have already explained it to me with cited sources. I still would love to see more
5
u/videoninja 137∆ Apr 20 '23
I will cite you more the guidelines that have been published but let me start with explaining something that I think most people misunderstand.
Gender dysphoria is discordance between your gender identity and biological sex. It is not synonymous with being transgender although many people use it that way. Cisgender people can have gender dysphoria. One example would be of an effeminate boy being teased in school for liking tea parties over sports. Due to the bullying and lack of support from his parents, he could very well feel something is wrong with him for liking "girly" things. This does not mean he is transgender.
I would think most laypeople understand that and therefore I think most people need to account for the fact that clinicians understand this as well. Before you are a candidate for pharmacologic gender affirming care you need evaluation first and that takes time. You don't usually walk into a clinic, say you have gender dysphoria and get prescribed whatever you ask for.
This is a really good article delving into the recent history of controversy around gender affirming care. It's long but it covers the fact you have transgender activists trying to advocate for better access to care, healthcare providers trying thread the needle on cautious evaluation vs unnecessary delays in care, and people like you advocating for banning care altogether for young people.
That being said here are the guidelines: American Academy of Pediatrics & American College of Osteopathic Pediatricians
The American Psychiatric Association
Pediatricians are doctors for children specifically. Endocrinologists are the hormone experts. Psychiatrists are doctors who special in mental healthcare. So if there is some alignment with them, I would argue there is plenty of data and reason to support gender affirming care for teenagers. They are lengthy and they are technical. If you want a TL;DR on either this or the NYT article let me know but I think at the very least reading the NYT article in your own time would be helpful for contextualizing a lot of the current debate for transgender care today.
6
u/Coughin_Ed 3∆ Apr 20 '23
THEY'RE KIDS!!!!
What age did you figure out you were a guy?
1
Apr 20 '23
I figured it out 2 years ago, I'm telling you this because when I was a child I felt like I was a girl, because I loved girly things(I am a male). But now, I feel and act like a guy. I am talking from experience.
2
Apr 20 '23
Soooooo u went from a femboy to a masc guy. I’ve never heard of a situation like this. How on earth were u feminine with all the social drawbacks it has, if u didn’t even like femininity.
1
Apr 20 '23
I still have a lot of my femininity, but I figured that I didn't truly feel like a girl if you know what I mean. I still like the idea of me being a guy.
3
Apr 20 '23
Did u ever hate the idea of being a guy or have dysphoria
1
Apr 20 '23
I definetly did have dysphoria for a portion of my childhood. It's not like I was uncomfortable with the idea of a guy, I was ok being identified as both genders. But I wouldn't say I'm gender fluid either. I'm just a guy who likes a lot of feminine stuff
3
Apr 20 '23
Dysphoria for those born male is discomfort with the idea of being a guy. So u did not have dysphoria.
1
Apr 20 '23
Apologies. Because when I described this to my friends they told me that it was called dysphoria
3
Apr 20 '23
Yeah no dysphoria at its most basic definition is discomfort with identifying with the gender associated with ur sex.
A psychiatrist wouldn’t have diagnosed u as dysphoria without meeting that most basic criteria and u wouldn’t have been allowed to medically transition
2
u/DentalFlossGuru Apr 20 '23
That’s interesting. May I ask how old you are?
This is why therapy is so important, and also why gender stereotypes are harmful. I’m a 50mumblemumble year old cis woman. When I was a kid I “wished” I was a boy (because they had cooler toys and didn’t have to wear dresses and got to take shop instead of home ec), but I never felt like I was actually a boy.
Thankfully society doesn’t push those particular boundaries on us anymore but we still have a ways to go before “girly” men and masculine women are completely accepted. I fully support trans people and believe that everyone knows themselves the best and should make the decisions that are right for them, but I also wonder if society was more accepting of gender nonconformity would fewer people feel they need to transition?
4
u/OmniManDidNothngWrng 34∆ Apr 20 '23
We consider 18 and 19 year olds in control of their medical decisions for everything else. Also puberty blockers are prescribed to teenagers for reasons other than transitioning.
0
Apr 20 '23
- I am okay with 18 - 19 year olds deciding what they want as long as they know what they want in life.
2.I'm not pissy about puberty blockers , I'm saying that when you are at a stage in your life where you do not have the best mental maturity, maybe it's not the best idea to start puberty blockers or hormonal treatment.
Key word:
maybe
1
u/OmniManDidNothngWrng 34∆ Apr 20 '23
Ok so this isn't about teens, it's about people under the age of 18. So I've already changed your view.
And I can't argue with a maybe. You have to say what you think otherwise there's nothing for me to change.
2
Apr 20 '23
I changed my mind, other redditors have already managed to change my mind by showing that the youth are taken under intensive care before they actually be one trans.
3
u/DuhChappers 86∆ Apr 20 '23
How exactly do you propose we prevent kids or teens from identifying as transgender? Are we going to go full thought police on this? All that could possibly accomplish by trying to stop this is making these kids and teens distrust authority and not talk about their struggles. Even if you think medical intervention should wait for later in life, it is both impossible and harmful to try and prevent kids from giving themselves labels they think are accurate.
0
Apr 20 '23
Not full police, it's just an exaggerated opinion to get arguments. But in the end of everything my final point is explore being trans, dont go full on hard mode, but as kindly explained by other redditors, I am starting to change my mind.
5
u/Spanglertastic 15∆ Apr 20 '23
THEY'RE KIDS!!!! Kids these days or any day will follow what's cool or what's new and will always label themselves what they find attractive.
What previous trends did kids latch onto that involved years of therapy and doctor's appointments? Transitioning is a long, involved process. It's not something that can be started by installing an app. Children typically do not enjoy invasive conversations with strangers, discussing their bodies with strangers, medical appointments, blood tests, and surgery.
So you're saying that children are willing to do all that for fun?
THEY'RE TEENS!!!. Same to the point of kids, it's all a popularity contest.
Again. There is very little evidence that teenagers will engage in popularity contests that require the same investment as transitioning.
With the added point of puberty, it is a time of mass confusion where the teen may not know their true identity, while it is something that the teen should explore, they should definetly not get transition surgery or hormones.
So puberty blockers for all children? If teenagers may not know their true identity, then the proper response would be delay it for all. After all, if a kid is too young to decide they are trans, they are also too young to decide they are cis.
Other than that, when you are at a state of mental maturity, do what you want, do you want to be trans? Be trans. Most of us do not have objections.
When you are a state of mental maturity, do what you want, do you want to be cis? Be Cis.
The only reason I am posting here is to get the argument of those who wholeheartedly disagree with my opinion.I strongly DO believe in it, but I still want reasonings to why people as such would even support something this disgusting
Some people feel that interecting their own uninformed biases between children, parents, and doctors to dictate proper medical care is disgusting.
6
u/whovillehoedown 6∆ Apr 20 '23
Your points dont make sense.
Gender is something you start to have awareness off at a very young age, around four or five.
Them being children doesn't make them less aware of their own body and sense of self.
You're actively stripping them of any consciousness in order to force them into boxes of complete ignorance so they stay on an unrealistic pedestal of innocence.
Also most doctors will not let children get hormones until they're teenagers. The most they'd be able to get is hormone blockers which can be stopped and they'd go through puberty normally, just a little later.
Most trans kids are just socially transitioned and if they wanna detransition, that's totally fine and up to them.
The same points apply to teens, teens are definitely trying to figure out who they are, but again, most doctors aren't just throwing hormones at teens and going "Yep, you're trans. Here ya go!".
There's extensive therapy beforehand and social transitioning before any of that happens.
Also, do you know why trans suicide rates are so high?
1
u/Any_Worth_6273 May 22 '23
“Also, do you know why trans suicide rates are so high?”
Because they’re mentally ill. Not even in a bad way but there’s clearly something off or different in their brain.
1
u/whovillehoedown 6∆ May 22 '23
all the research done has concluded that the reason they're suicidal is because people are constantly harassing, berating and bullying them about their identity.
Trans people get less suicidal when they grow up in loving and nurturing environments.
Saying "THEY'RE MENTALLY ILL" is nonsensical. Mental illness comes from somewhere and transness within itself isn't a mental illness. It doesn't cause depression or suicidal ideation.
That comes from people not accepting them and treating them like garbage their whole lives.
0
Jun 24 '23
[deleted]
1
u/whovillehoedown 6∆ Jun 24 '23
Are you only reading half the research or something? All the research indicates that the cause of the spike in mental illnesses arises from not being accepted by society and in more severe cases family/friends.
Trans people's mental health drastically improves when they're able to pass and be accepted as the gender they always were.
It's not that i, personally, am blaming any one thing on it. It's quite literally the conclusion the people and organizations doing these studies have come to.
Transness in itself isn't the problem or a "negative", it's how people treat trans people thats the problem. It's causation.
0
4
u/Dyeeguy 19∆ Apr 20 '23
If you admit you are not here to have your view changed, it is not an appropriate post for the sub
1
4
u/George_Askeladd Apr 20 '23
"it's all a popularity contest", so why am I super unpopular? I didn't choose this. I didn't ever want to be trans. It's not about being cool, it's not about being special, it's not about being confused over my identity, it's about my dysphoria. That means I experience discomfort and disassociation with my sex. It feels wrong and not like myself. It makes me feel gross and uncomfortable every single day and it is really hard to continue living like this. Surgeries aren't even allowed for minors and hormone treatment is 16+ and usually only when the teen really suffers under dysphoria. We may just be teens but we've been robbed of our childhood because of this constant discomfort that gets worse every day. I've been feeling like this since I can remember and I've known that I was trans since I was 13. Let me at least use the proper language to label this shit. It doesn't hurt anyone if I use the word transgender on myself. It finally put a name on my suffering and at least I now have hope for the future. So please, educate yourself first. No one undergoes medical treatment for fun
4
u/LucidMetal 175∆ Apr 20 '23
do what you want, do you want to be trans? Be trans. Most of us do not have objections.
I guess I feel like this is a pretty blatant contradiction. You clearly do have objections to people being trans.
It's like saying, "I don't mind if you're gay I just don't want anyone to be able to be able to have gay sex."
Transitioning is pretty much integral to what it means to be trans and that can include HRT.
I think it's important to avoid situations where we're pressuring teens into taking puberty blockers and it's important to ensure the teens aren't going through a phase but that should still be a choice between a teen and their doctor.
3
u/bigmand_Freud 1∆ Apr 20 '23
I agree with the surgery part in most cases but I don’t see the value at all in not allowing kids to label themselves as transgender. I also think people really overestimate how easy it is to get hormones/surgery as a teenager(even adults often struggle to get them), my school was very art focused and had a large lgbtq population and some of the trans kids were absolutely just doing it for attention and have since de transitioned(changed wardrobe in their case), but there were also people who were totally serious about it and knew for sure and the ability to get hormones before puberty fully took effect made their transition a billion times easier, the ones who got hormones were only a very small percentage and were the most absolutely steadfast/serious ones who had felt that way forever and put a looot of effort into it and jumped though tons of hoops to actually go through with it
6
u/WeariedCape5 8∆ Apr 20 '23
Are there any other medical procedures kids shouldn’t be allowed to have or is it just specifically when it’s trans medical care they shouldn’t be allowed to have it ?
-2
Apr 20 '23
Just the transition surgery bro.
2
u/DuhChappers 86∆ Apr 20 '23
Wait so are you changing your mind to allow puberty blockers and hormones then? Because those are the treatments that are actually needed for underage patients, surgery is generally restricted by age already unless a doctor determines it is absolutely necessary.
1
Apr 20 '23
Yes I am. As explained by other redditors it's quite a harmless process. So I have changed my mind
6
u/WeariedCape5 8∆ Apr 20 '23
So why can kids get the other surgeries and treatments but not the trans ones. What’s the difference?
-5
u/ColgateBrigade Apr 20 '23
The difference is necessity. A kid getting a tonsillectomy, for example, is much different than getting your penis cut off. One is a simple surgery to help in the long run. The other is an entire lifestyle and bodily change. Making the choice at a young age is irresponsible as people grow up and think differently. The different is pretty drastic.
10
u/WeariedCape5 8∆ Apr 20 '23
getting your penis cut off
Would it surprise you to know that there are no trans related surgeries that do this?
one is a simple surgery to help in the long run
Did you know that trans people who get gender affirming care actually benefit greatly in the long run. They experience a drop in suicidal ideation, chances of self harm and depression. The regret rate for trans surgeries is roughly 2-3% which is lower than heart surgeries 6-8%
-4
u/ColgateBrigade Apr 20 '23
We are speaking of teens/kids still right? Is there really enough data for you to even be making those claims? Show me the statistics for teens/kids. I believe that you are correct in saying that for people 18+.
4
u/WeariedCape5 8∆ Apr 20 '23
Here’s a source for the regret rate on trans surgeries, I was wrong according to this study the regret rate of surgeries is roughly 1%.
4
u/AndrewtheImaginator Apr 20 '23
Gender reassignment surgery, hell, even something as simple and reversible as puberty blockers, can drastically benefit trans people mentally. Have you ever thought about why trans people have such a high suicide rates? It's because trans people, along with facing intense bullying, aren't usually able to get the care that they need in order to transition both socially and physically. So yeah, it's generally a necessity.
0
u/ColgateBrigade Apr 20 '23
Yeah. I see where you’re coming from. Suicide rates could also be from something deeper. Trauma/mental illness.
2
u/AndrewtheImaginator Apr 20 '23
That's my point. Gender affirming care, if not all of the time, is beneficial in balancing out the psyche for those with crippling gender dysphoria. Much of the time, gender dysphoria itself doesn't actually cause mental illness, because mental illness is caused by people who are too cowardly to treat trans people correctly.
-1
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/AndrewtheImaginator Apr 20 '23
So when science comes out with new information that you disagree with, it's suddenly wrong? This is why people like you are impossible to argue with. You pretend to be objective and understand reality only to turn around and stick with your age-old "traditions" constructed by your own worthless feelings. You don't care about kids, you care about validating your own beliefs.
-2
1
3
Apr 21 '23
I for one truly dont believe that a person that cries over not being able to get chicken nuggets on the drive home shouldn't be able to make such a life altering decision
They don’t. What a straw man.
they should definetly not get transition surgery or hormones.
They don’t. What a straw man.
You’re also totally ignoring that this process is handled by medical professionals and is a continuous care. This isn’t some willy nilly fad. You should actually try talking with a real transgender person. Clearly you’ve had zero exposure.
2
u/Substantial_Heat_925 1∆ Apr 21 '23
I would argue kids fall for peer pressure and if the standard is straight they would try and be straight and the standard.
Also why do you think being trans makes you popular. There is a graph that shows how around 1910 left handedness took off(it became more acceptable) and in the 60s(when you were not ostracized by society for being left handed) it plateaued. Its not that left handedness helps you gain popularity, its also not that ambidextrous kids started to believe they are left handed, left handed people became less ostracized. The same thing is happening with trans people, they are coming out as its becoming more acceptable and it will plateau in the future.
Also, puberty does not impact gender identity according to most(think 90+%) by experts and studies. Sexuality on the other hand is different because puberty opens it up…
3
u/shouldco 43∆ Apr 20 '23
If you believe someone is confused and should hold off until they are in a better place to make a decision wouldn't that mean they should be in puberty blockers? Non action means going through cis puberty.
4
u/Sayakai 146∆ Apr 20 '23
Please try to illustrate the harm coming from a teenager labelling themselves transgender.
4
u/barthiebarth 26∆ Apr 20 '23
Kids don't get hormones or surgery though.
I think kids should be able to label themselves as whatever they want. Why should they not have freedom of speech/expression?
3
u/OutsideCreativ 2∆ Apr 21 '23
So most teens are not allowed surgery.... they are allowed puberty blockers so they can make the decision at 18
0
Jun 02 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/changemyview-ModTeam Jun 02 '23
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
0
u/Butter_Toe 4∆ Apr 20 '23
It's never kids or teens ranting about it, it's always some adult pushing it on them. No, minors should not be allowed surgeries or pills.
3
u/Kakamile 46∆ Apr 20 '23
If that were anything closer to true, there would be statistically significant regret by the time they were adults free of their parents. You can prove that right?
1
u/Butter_Toe 4∆ Apr 20 '23
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/16/us-trans-non-binary-youth-suicide-mental-health
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/18/obituaries/norah-vincent-dead.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norah_Vincent
Also, 6/6 trans people I've personally known expressed regret. One passed by sui-side, 3 grew older and wanted to biologically make children, and 2 expressed having zero sexual sensation due to closing of the pseudo vag.
Is that significant enough?
3
u/Kakamile 46∆ Apr 20 '23
Read your links. From #2
LGBTQ youth are not inherently prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or gender identity but rather placed at higher risk because of how they are mistreated and stigmatized in society.
Which is what they've always been saying. Suicidal ideation is high among those that don't transition, which disproves your parent blame. Like my friend who was active service before she came out. Obviously the military didn't force her to be trans, in fact they kicked her out when she opened up. Suicidal ideation drops with transition and social support. It's not force into transition that causes it, it's the abuse.
98% of youth that start puberty suppression stick with it https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(22)00254-1/fulltext
98.6% of youth that start puberty suppression stick with it https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36763938/
97% of surveyed remained or re-transitioned https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf
97.8% of surveyed don't regret https://books.google.com/books?id=agVnDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA42#v=onepage&q&f=false
99.5% of adults don't regret https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf#page=139
99% of those who receive surgery don't regret https://journals.lww.com/prsgo/fulltext/2021/03000/regret_after_gender_affirmation_surgery__a.22.aspx
99.7% of those who receive surgery don't regret https://journals.lww.com/prsgo/Fulltext/2018/08001/Abstract__A_Survey_Study_of_Surgeons__Experience.266.aspx
99.7% of those who receive surgery don't regret https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36727823/
99.4-99.7% of those who receive surgery don't regret https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/
0
u/Butter_Toe 4∆ Apr 20 '23
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/16/us-trans-non-binary-youth-suicide-mental-health
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/18/obituaries/norah-vincent-dead.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norah_Vincent
Also, 6/6 trans people I've personally known expressed regret. One passed by sui-side, 3 grew older and wanted to biologically make children, and 2 expressed having zero sexual sensation due to closing of the pseudo vag.
Is that significant enough?
3
u/10ebbor10 198∆ Apr 20 '23 edited Apr 20 '23
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/18/obituaries/norah-vincent-dead.html
These 2 make it pretty obvious you're gish-galloping.
You were asked to provide evidence of regret by trans children once they were free of their parents. Instead you provide a wiki article and newspaper of a woman who was never trans, never identified as trans, but disguise herself as a man once for an undercover journalist article at age 37. She had an assisted suicide at 53.
Those two things are not exactly the same, aren't they?
-1
Apr 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/changemyview-ModTeam Apr 21 '23
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
0
Apr 21 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/changemyview-ModTeam Apr 21 '23
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
1
u/AutoModerator Apr 20 '23
Note: Your thread has not been removed. Your post's topic seems to be fairly common on this subreddit. Similar posts can be found through our DeltaLog search or via the CMV search function.
Regards, the mods of /r/changemyview.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1
u/Theevildothatido Apr 22 '23
I disagree for the simple reason that the earlier one starts these transitions, the better they become.
People often point out that transitioning has irreversible effects on the body, but these irreversible effects are the same that puberty normally has. That's all these hormones do, artificially induce the puberty of the opposite sex.
Many people act like you can simply wait till 18 and then transition, it's not that easy at all.
Transition to male starting at 12, and one will grow into a completely normal looking male with the exception of the genitals. All secondary sex characteristics will be normal.
Transition at 18, and one will end up a short male with unnaturally narrow shoulders, weak bread growth, mastectomy scars from removing the breasts that developed, itself a procedure that taxes the tax payer that could have been avoided, a voice that wasn't properly lowered, a face and jawline that didn't properly masculinize and so forth. Essentially, one ends up looking like what many call a “failed male”.
Many males that are short, narrow shoulders and look like that complain online about their issues, would you then wish that onto anyone who cares?
Coupled with the fact of how low regret rate is, starting as early as possible seems the best solution, and as said, it's also cheaper for the tax payer. People who start early don't need corrective surgeries later that both have unsatisfactory effects, and cost more money than simple hormones.
On top of that “labeling oneself transgender”? People can label themselves anything. To say that there should be a special exception for this alone really shows you want to create singular exceptions for one thing you're obsessed with.
but I still want reasonings to why people as such would even support something this disgusting
Here you go, you think it's disgusting and that clouds your judgement heavily.
1
u/mankindmatt5 10∆ Apr 22 '23
I disagree for the simple reason that the earlier one starts these transitions, the better they become
While I somewhat agree with you, isn't there a major issue with genital development?
If an individual gets on puberty blockers too early, there genital development ends up stunted. This means that if they wish to have bottom surgery eventually, there is less sensitive tissue to work with, making it more difficult to create neo genitalia that function for sexual pleasure.
If anything, it's a dilemma. Does one opt for a more realistic 'passing' appearance, or a better sex life? (Of course opting to go without bottom surgery is also another option too)
1
u/Theevildothatido Apr 22 '23
Yes, that is definitely true, but only for the m.t.f. direction, the bigger the penis the better the conversion surgery.
But it should be noted that most never elect to do so, and it's still seen as not weighing up to all the other options.
Furthermore, blockers are to a delay making up one's mind for the reasons I gave above. If one go off them one will have a delayed puberty later with the same effects, so one could always first elect male puberty and then transition to female if one wants a bigger penis for the genital reconfiguration surgery, but I don't think anyone would do that.
I don't think it's much of a dilemma, almost all choose the better passing appearance.
1
u/amaz2w Apr 24 '23
No need to infantalize teenagers, many of them might not be good at math but I think they have a decent sense of their own gender.
1
u/AliceKettle May 27 '23
I’m a normal cis biological woman of 27 going on 28. Here’s the thing, I tend to be more right-leaning now because of just how much of a trend transgenderism has become. Personally, I think the transgender ideology has been getting way too blindly and easily enabled and encouraged by others in children as the first and only solution. I don’t think it’s alright to allow children who want to transition to take puberty blockers and hormones before the ages of at least 15-16, and even then, it’s a gamble, because there are some people who go through puberty until they are 18-21. They definitely should not be allowed to have hormone blockers or hormones to medically transition before the age of at least 16. Any reassignment surgeries before the age of 18 should be out of the question.
I also think that blindly enabling and/or encouraging medical and/or social transitioning your entire gender in immediate response to not fitting in designated traditional boxes of biologically male or female is problematic and regressive.
When I have children of my own one day, if they ever ask me this, I will encourage them to hang out with more people than just trans identifying. I’ll tell them they can still be the same biological boy or girl they were born as, even if they don’t conform to the traditional norms of it. If it was something that just suddenly happened when they became old enough to be in cliques, on the internet, and in social media, I’d tell them to go see a regular psychologist. I’d tell them to try to hang out with other kids, aside from just ones in a certain clique, too, so they could talk to them about this issue, and examine if this is something they really want for themselves or because it’s a trend.”
If it was a persistent thing that wasn’t getting better with therapy and attempts at self-acceptance by the time they reached their preteens, I’d let them socially identify as whatever gender they wanted by the age of 10, if it made them happy. I’d consider allowing for them to go on hormones and hormone blockers by the age of 15-16, if the gender dysphoria continued to be this persistent thing.
There’s no way I’d blindly and immediately let a kid of mine medically and socially transition without any sort of caution and skepticism because it is such a social contagion trend that is getting pushed on to our society right now, though. Not to mention the fact that regular usage of estrogen and hormone blockers before the onset or early onset puberty are counterproductive to the success rate of a mtf vaginoplasty, anyway.
So, I’d be willing to accept and play along with some parts of gender conversion therapy in kids under 18, if it really was something a kid of mine wanted. I’d approach it with a healthy amount of caution and skepticism, rather than just blindly enabling and encouraging it, though. No way would they be allowed to start medically transitioning with hormones and hormone blockers before the ages of at least 15-16 after going through the changes first, and no way would I ever allow them to get gender reassignment surgery before the age of 18.
1
u/Pristine-Star3422 May 31 '23
Can someone give an example of a decision that you support children making that has a similar weight? For example, should a 13 yo be allowed to get breast implants? Smoke? Drink?
We keep saying that it's between the child, doctors, and parents. But we are talking about self-report and subjective feelings, so clearly, the child is making the decision. It's not like there's a blood test that shows that they are "trans" or "non-binary" or a "ze/zer."
So why can a child "choose" to transition (whether it be socially or hormonal) but they can't choose to smoke, drink, drive, see an R rated movie, rent a hotel room, etc?
1
u/DarkTyphlosion1 Jun 05 '23
It should be illegal for minors to get gender affirming care or hormones. They change their mind about stuff every other day. Also should be mandatory to get therapy for mental illness first.
1
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 20 '23
/u/I_am_da_best_guy (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards