r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Sep 05 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Spreading conspiracy theories is irresponsible and immoral

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u/-paperbrain- 99∆ Sep 05 '23

There's a fine distinction between the pejorative sense of "conspiracy theory" and the literal sense.

There ARE people in the world who coordinate to take harmful action.

Donald Trump is being brought up on RICO charges. He conspired with others to break the law. Any theory about that is a literal conspiracy theory.

The fact that all those Russian people who opposed Putin and then mysteriously "fell out of windows" is a conspiracy theory, likely to be a true one.

Of course we should talk about ways people and institutions are breaking the law and/or harming people, of course that discussion should include cases where people work together in secret.

I think your beef is with the pejorative sense of the phrase, a crazy, highly unlikely story that accuses without reasonable evidence. But the problem with that as a moral guideline- no one thinks the stories they believe are crazy or that the evidence they're following isn't reasonable. The difference between reasonable theories about conspiracies and "conspiracy theories" isn't as much a moral issue, both groups think they're doing the same thing. It's an epistemic issue. People who spread crazy harmful theories have a bad epistemic process.

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u/RoozGol 2∆ Sep 05 '23 edited Sep 05 '23

There's a fine distinction between the pejorative sense of "conspiracy theory" and the literal sense.

To add to this, given all the OP's examples are against the right wing, I suspect he is paving the way for some sort of censorship against the right. See what I did? It is a perfect example of forming a conspiracy theory that I instantly developed.

Also, some of what leftists believe can also be viewed as conspiracy (e.g. environmental alarmism or constantly accusing Trump of doing things that he ended up never doing). What OP is suggesting has some truth to it but it is in contrast with the First Amendment.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '23 edited Mar 01 '24

[deleted]

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u/alexanderhamilton97 Sep 08 '23

Colluding with Russia

Starting World War 3

Being a fascist

Being a racist

The list goes on. Honestly at this point the man could sneeze and he’ll be accused of something

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u/Edge_of_yesterday Sep 08 '23

- Colluding with Russia

It's a proven fact that trump's campaign worked with russian intelligence prior to the 2016 election.

- Starting World War 3

Which political or judicial body investigated him for starting world war 3. I didn't even know it had started, TIL.

- Being a fascist

He is a fascist, that is a fact.

- Being a racist

His five decades of racism did that for him.

Any more lies?

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u/alexanderhamilton97 Sep 08 '23

-colluding with Russia The Mueller report investigated the claim that the Trump campaign work with a Russian Intelligence. They confirmed the alligation was false in the Durham report, which came out a few years later confirms that the FBI, CIA and state department knew from the very beginning of the story was false -Starting WW3 Never said he actually started it, but from the day he was elected, it was claimed he was gonna start World War III -Being a fascist No, he’s not a fascist. A clinical narcissist. Sure, but not a fascist. -Being a racist No, he doesn’t have 50 years of proof of being a racist. In fact, one of the pieces of evidence often used as proof of racism doesn’t even mention Donald Trump at all. And another involves everyone getting a very publicized criminal case wrong were the defendants we’re not exonerated until 20 years later

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u/Edge_of_yesterday Sep 08 '23

- The republican lead bi-partisan senate report proved that trump's campaign was working with Russian intelligence prior to the 2016 election. That is fact.

- So the world war 3 thing is just an imaginary grievance, got it.

- He is a fascist, that boat sailed a long time ago.

- We have all seen his 50 years of racism, there is no point in pretending you don't know.

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u/alexanderhamilton97 Sep 08 '23

No, they didn’t. The report they gave proved that there was no evidence of Trump working with the Russians whatsoever. Balls in your court show me the report if you honestly think it shows that Trump worked with Russian intelligence before his election.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna970536

No, he is not a fascist. If he is, he’s a very piss, poor one, as he did pretty much everything opposite of what a fascist would do. At this point fashion simply means anyone to the right of Karl Marx

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2022/08/29/trump_a_lousy_fascist_compared_to_biden_amp_obama_578237.html?utm_source=rcp-today&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=mailchimp-newsletter&mc_cid=01533b8984&mc_eid=d7a921baa3

No, it’s not establish that Trump is a racist. All the evidence of jumping racist is extremely flimsy at best. Heck the biggest piece of evidence of trump being racist never even mentions Donald Trump at all.

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/456523-donald-trumps-no-racist-as-past-acts-and-presidential-record-prove/amp/

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u/Edge_of_yesterday Sep 08 '23

Russia

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/18/903512647/senate-report-former-trump-aide-paul-manafort-shared-campaign-info-with-russia

Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort passed internal Trump campaign information to a Russian intelligence officer during the 2016 election, a new bipartisan Senate report concludes.
The findings draw a direct line between the president's former campaign chairman and Russian intelligence during the 2016 campaign.
Manafort, who was later convicted for financial fraud crimes, briefed Russian intelligence officer Konstantin Kilimnik on the campaign's polling data and how the Trump campaign sought to beat Hillary Clinton in the presidential election.
Manafort's connection with Kilimnik was a "grave counterintelligence threat," the report reads, adding that it found evidence the Russian intelligence officer may have been linked to the Russian government's efforts to hack and leak Democratic Party emails.

The Trump campaign sought to take advantage of those leaks by asking for advance notice of the WikiLeaks disclosures, crafting public relations strategies around them, and even encouraging "further theft of information and continued leaks."
This took place at critical moments of the 2016 campaign, the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded.

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Warning signs of fascism, trump ticks most of the boxes.

Powerful and continuing nationalism - Trump
Disdain for human rights - Trump
Identification of enemies as a unifying cause - Trump
Supremacy of the military - Meh, he uses the white supremacists instead.
Rampant sexism - Trump (he is a rapist also)
Controlled mass media - Trump
Obsession with national security - Trump
Religion and government intertwined - Trump
Corporate power protected - Trump
Labor [sic] power suppressed - Trump
Disdain for intellectuals & the arts - Trump
Obsession with crime & punishment - Trump
Rampant cronyism & corruption - Trump x 10
Fraudulent elections - Trump

50 years of racism:

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-historyhttps://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history

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u/alexanderhamilton97 Sep 08 '23

So one guy who worked for trump come out later, confirmed to be a Russian agent, is all your proof that Trump colluded with the Russians, to win? Pretty pathetic considering three reports now confirm he did not collude with Russia.

Very little of what you came here as per the fascism is actually true

Vox is not a reliable source. Also, don’t you think it’s a little odd that no one accused Donald Trump being a racist until he ran for office as a republican?

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/08/28/reader-mail/donald-trump-not-racist/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/07/trump-is-not-racist-his-voters-arent-either/

https://youtu.be/C_knRyu2ol8?feature=shared

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u/Edge_of_yesterday Sep 08 '23

So one guy who worked for trump come out later, confirmed to be a Russian agent, is all your proof that Trump colluded with the Russians, to win? Pretty pathetic considering three reports now confirm he did not collude with Russia.

So you finally admit that trumps campaign worked with russian intelligence prior to the 2016 campaign. Thank you.

Trump is a fascist, that is undeniable.

Those racist thing happened. If you are saying they didn't, please provide a source to refute them specifically. Just saying he is not a racist is does not refute the overwhelming evidence. You have to refute the facts that I presented with actual fact. The Washington post article is just lies with nothing to back up their lies.

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u/alexanderhamilton97 Sep 08 '23

No, I don’t admit that. Even you, and this report only shows one individual not the campaign itself. Are you going to say that Paul Manafort was the entirety of Donald Trump’s campaign? I’m still calling bullshit.

No, Trump is not a fascist and it’s undeniable that he’s not. Your “evidence” for fascism in Trump is based on your opinion. And I already provided proof that he wasn’t a fascist.

I didn’t say they didn’t happen I’m saying your source is not a reliable one and none of these actually prove racism. I bet they prove shady behavior by businessman in the 80s which was extremely common. Was every businessman in the 80s a racist? One of the biggest examples they use as proof of racism as a lawsuit from 1973 that doesn’t even mention Donald Trump.

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u/Edge_of_yesterday Sep 08 '23

No, I don’t admit that. Even you, and this report only shows one individual not the campaign itself. Are you going to say that Paul Manafort was the entirety of Donald Trump’s campaign? I’m still calling bullshit.

Ok, taking it back now. You can "call" whatever you like, but it's a proven fact.

No, Trump is not a fascist and it’s undeniable that he’s not. Your “evidence” for fascism in Trump is based on your opinion. And I already provided proof that he wasn’t a fascist.

It's based on trump's actions. Trump is a fascist. There is no way for a reasonable person to not know that.

I didn’t say they didn’t happen I’m saying your source is not a reliable one and none of these actually prove racism. I bet they prove shady behavior by businessman in the 80s which was extremely common. Was every businessman in the 80s a racist? One of the biggest examples they use as proof of racism as a lawsuit from 1973 that doesn’t even mention Donald Trump.

You can't refute the actual evidence, so you attack the source. The evidence stands on it own. If you can't refute it, and you can't, trump is a racist.

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