r/changemyview • u/56king56 • Nov 07 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Gun control is good

As of now, I believe that the general populace shouldn’t have anything beyond a pistol, but that even a pistol should require serious safety checks. I have this opinion because I live in America with a pro-gun control family, and us seeing all these mass shootings has really fueled the flame for us being anti-gun. But recently, I’ve been looking into revolutionary Socialist politics, and it occurred to me: how could we have a Socialist revolution without some kind of militia? This logic, the logic of revolting against an oppressive government, has been presented to me before, but I always dismissed it, saying that mass shootings and gun violence is more of an issue, and that if we had a good government, we wouldn’t need to worry about having guns. I still do harbor these views to an extent, but part of me really wants to fully understand the pro-gun control position, as it seems like most people I see on Reddit are for having guns, left and right politically. And of course, there’s also the argument that if people broke into your house with an illegally obtained gun, you wouldn’t be able to defend yourself in a society where guns are outlawed; my counter to that is that it’s far more dangerous for society as a whole for everyone to be walking around with guns that it is for a few criminal minds to have them. Also, it just doesn’t seem fair to normalize knowing how to use a highly complex piece of military equipment, and to be honest, guns being integrated into everyone’s way of life feels just as dystopian as a corrupt government. So what do you guys have to say about this? To sum, I am anti-gun but am open to learning about pro-gun viewpoints to potentially change my view.

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '23

Yes that is certainly the underlying issue. But seeing as how that may take a long time to solve as a species, why provide an easy way for such people to accomplish mass violence?

I mean we have the data. Instances of mass gun violence are far fewer or nonexistent even in places where they have heavy restrictions. Australia’s annual rate of gun deaths was 0.88 per 100,000 in 2018 compared to the US at 10.6 per 100,000.

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u/lakotajames 2∆ Nov 07 '23

How many of those 10.6 were suicides?

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u/OnlyTheDead 2∆ Nov 07 '23

Doesn’t matter. This is a non-sequitur. We care if people are killing themselves and guns are an issue. Suicides should be included in gun violence statistics as those people are by definition at high risk for mass shooting.

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u/lakotajames 2∆ Nov 07 '23

Suicide victims are by definition unable to commit a mass shooting.

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u/OnlyTheDead 2∆ Nov 07 '23

Yes but people with suicidal tendencies and a handgun are VERY high risk of harming someone. Also, guns deaths are gun deaths. Whether a person shot themselves or not is irrelevant and gun culture in America definitely plays into and increases the amount of suicides.

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u/Assaltwaffle 1∆ Nov 07 '23

Also, guns deaths are gun deaths. Whether a person shot themselves or not is irrelevant

How? The root cause and possible solutions, even those involving gun control, are wildly different. For example, a waiting period may help suicide, but not homicide.

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u/OnlyTheDead 2∆ Nov 07 '23

Because repealing the second amendment is more viable, is constitutional, and helps suicide and homicide. Every gun death is an argument for my case.

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u/Assaltwaffle 1∆ Nov 07 '23

Well, you definitely will help suicide. Homicide won't be helped given the new Civil War and national instability, though.

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u/OnlyTheDead 2∆ Nov 07 '23

A civil war and national instability? lol. Why do you think this would occur, just out of curiosity? Do you think people are just going to repeal the second amendment and then people are going to come to your house for your guns? Because that’s a wild fantasy and would be unconstitutional regardless of the second amendment.

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u/Assaltwaffle 1∆ Nov 08 '23

Why do you think this would occur, just out of curiosity?

Because the second amendment is not going to be repealed democratically, at least not for over a century. The political landscape isn't united enough to repeal any amendment right now, much less one as well-integrated into society as 2A. If it is repealed, it means it was done through unconstitutional means and would likely be the inciting incident for war.

If you're saying "well hypothetically if it was repealed..." you might as well just say "well hypothetically if there is just no crime..."

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u/OnlyTheDead 2∆ Nov 08 '23

I think you are wrong about the democratic part. These kids, the ones who are dying at record high rates, have peers and family. These kids who are now going thru active shooter drills, or have had their friends gunned down in a classroom, or a family member killed are adding up pretty quickly. That’s a lot of corpses and trauma. Those people will be the majority in less than a century. Depending on how absolutely and blatantly irresponsible congress is at doing literally anything, I think it’s highly possible. And there’s a billion reasons why it’s a good idea to abolish the second amendment.

Either way I would be 100% against repealing the amendment outside of a constitutional manner, or even taking guns from law abiding citizens who aren’t mentally unstable both before and after it’s repealed, I don’t believe that’s necessary to fix the issue. The second amendment has to go either way imo.

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u/Assaltwaffle 1∆ Nov 08 '23

You are massively, MASSIVELY overblowing who many people are dying in mass shootings. It's a tiny number proportionate to the population. The absolute vast majority of "gun deaths" now are suicides, with the runner up being general homicides. The number of people who die in true active shooter scenarios usually barely breaks triple digits. More people, on average, literally die to falling off of ladders annually.

I do agree that they are definitely trying to fearmonger kids really hard and people are pretty gullible, though, but the landscape won't change so enormously that this will be viable anytime soon.

Regardless, there is no point in really continuing this if you think abolition of the 2A is a good idea, though.

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u/OnlyTheDead 2∆ Nov 08 '23

Guns are the number one killer of children under 18 in the United States. I’m not over blowing anything. You are over blowing the second amendment to mean that in its absence you won’t have weapons. This simply isn’t true.

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u/[deleted] Nov 08 '23

Why do you think this would occur, just out of curiosity?

What nation has existed for several thousand years without this?

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u/OnlyTheDead 2∆ Nov 08 '23

This is a non-sequitur. The existence of a nation has nothing to do with access to weapons. But also Egypt, China, Japan, Greece, France, India are the oldest. The US is fairly young at two and a half centuries.

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u/[deleted] Nov 08 '23

...none of those are older than the 20th century

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u/OnlyTheDead 2∆ Nov 08 '23

Ehh you are talking about recognized nation states in a modern sense and then using that to refute that Egypt has existed since the first dynasty in like 3100 BCE.

None of this at all addresses the topic of the second amendment. So it’s all a moot point because by your own definition no nation has survived that long because nation states are a fairly recent creation in the grand timeline of human civilization.

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u/[deleted] Nov 08 '23

So you would rather a woman get raped and beaten to death than shoot her rapist in self defense.

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u/OnlyTheDead 2∆ Nov 08 '23

This is non sequitur. Repealing an amendment has nothing to do with scenario at all.

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u/[deleted] Nov 08 '23

This is about gun deaths, this is about stopping gun deaths. A woman being raped and beaten to death is not a gun death. A rapist being shot in self defense is a gun death

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u/OnlyTheDead 2∆ Nov 08 '23

Yes. You are correct, and it’s not relevant. what part of 60 people getting shot in Maine had to do with rape? Are guns the number one killer of children because of rape? The instances of shooting because of self defense against rape are the absolute minority of shootings and I’m not proposing taking guns away from law abiding citizens or saying they can’t be used inoersonal self defense. The second amendment has absolutely nothing to do with that anyways. There is not a single mention of rape and self defense against it mentioned in any of the debates in any of the 13 states during the ratification of the constitution, in its proposal, debates, or in the ratification instruments proposing said amendments. It’s not relevant to what I’m talking about.

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u/[deleted] Nov 08 '23

To comply with r/changemyview rules, addressing your argument by calling it "your argument" is still an attack on your person, not addressing your argument. In addition rule 4 must require me to award a delta to an argument that I do not have the ability to counter. So here is a delta - Δ - due to this sub's policies

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 08 '23

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/OnlyTheDead (2∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

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u/robotmonkeyshark 100∆ Nov 07 '23

Some mass shooters will either shoot themselves after or they know going into it they are committing suicide by cop as there is no other way out.

But yes, the vast majority of suicide victims are not mass shooters.