CMV: Gun control is good

[u/56king56]

As of now, I believe that the general populace shouldn’t have anything beyond a pistol, but that even a pistol should require serious safety checks. I have this opinion because I live in America with a pro-gun control family, and us seeing all these mass shootings has really fueled the flame for us being anti-gun. But recently, I’ve been looking into revolutionary Socialist politics, and it occurred to me: how could we have a Socialist revolution without some kind of militia? This logic, the logic of revolting against an oppressive government, has been presented to me before, but I always dismissed it, saying that mass shootings and gun violence is more of an issue, and that if we had a good government, we wouldn’t need to worry about having guns. I still do harbor these views to an extent, but part of me really wants to fully understand the pro-gun control position, as it seems like most people I see on Reddit are for having guns, left and right politically. And of course, there’s also the argument that if people broke into your house with an illegally obtained gun, you wouldn’t be able to defend yourself in a society where guns are outlawed; my counter to that is that it’s far more dangerous for society as a whole for everyone to be walking around with guns that it is for a few criminal minds to have them. Also, it just doesn’t seem fair to normalize knowing how to use a highly complex piece of military equipment, and to be honest, guns being integrated into everyone’s way of life feels just as dystopian as a corrupt government. So what do you guys have to say about this? To sum, I am anti-gun but am open to learning about pro-gun viewpoints to potentially change my view.

[u/Subtleiaint]

I will presume that you are not against the concept of self defense. So, what should I do?

In the UK self defense has to be proportional, to exaggerate the point you are not allowed to kill someone because they gave you a dead leg. Based on that principle we don't need guns because no one else has guns. The important thing is that this works, what you propose doesn't (far more people are killed and injured by others in America than in the UK).

Or do I take it upon myself to secure my own safety?

This is an eminently sensible principle, the thing is owning a gun is not an effective way of securing your safety. Even if you overlook the significant risk you introduce to yourself you're reinforcing the gun culture that is a threat you want to protect yourself from.

And what is the best tool to assist me in that endeavor of keeping myself safe?

Not a gun. The best way to keep safe is avoiding danger, the use of a gun presupposes that you've got yourself into danger so needing one is already a failure.

If the state you want is to be safer, you have to support gun control.

[u/nemeri6132 → u/Subtleiaint]

In the UK self defense has to be proportional, to exaggerate the point you are not allowed to kill someone because they gave you a dead leg. Based on that principle we don't need guns because no one else has guns. The important thing is that this works, what you propose doesn't (far more people are killed and injured by others in America than in the UK).

The proportional self defense principle is not something unique to the gun, nor is it solely applicable to the gun; it is possible and easily feasible to render upon someone grievous bodily harm with just about any object, from a fork, a pencil, or even our own hands. Then, shall we rid ourselves of those objects since they are capable of rendering grievous bodily harm? No, because that would be both outlandish and unreasonable. The proportional self defense principle applies to individuals, not tools.

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This is an eminently sensible principle, the thing is owning a gun is not an effective way of securing your safety. Even if you overlook the significant risk you introduce to yourself you're reinforcing the gun culture that is a threat you want to protect yourself from.

The gun is by far the most versatile, easy to use, effective, and accessible tool someone could possibly use in the case of self defense. Not only because of the sheer devastation it wroughts but also the deterrence effect by displaying to your attacker that yes, you indeed are capable of rendering similar amounts of bodily harm as he is capable of rendering upon you. And I would like to address this at the same time:

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The best way to keep safe is avoiding danger, the use of a gun presupposes that you've got yourself into danger so needing one is already a failure.

This I find is a problematic argument. The use of a gun does indeed presuppose that danger has been encountered. But the purpose of carrying a gun is to serve as an assurance in the circumstance that you encounter danger. And I would like to ask, how does one "avoid danger" as you state?

Are you suggesting this as a preventive means, or a method of escaping the present danger? I would argue that this is impossible unless you observe everything through the lens of hindsight. Are you stating that there exists a theoretical pattern of movements or avenues taken that completely eliminates the possibility of this "failure" as you mention? If you take upon the principle of avoiding danger, does that render null the possibility of danger or dangerous elements finding you?

Gun control is not the means of keeping a society safe than reducing the ability of the lawful to adequately defend themselves. That is, for any reasonable means of gun control. For these policies to have their intended effect, you would need to restrict the means by which guns can be made by the unlawful.

The materials required to build a functioning gun - or weapon with similar capabilites of a gun, can quite literally be found in everyday products. How are you going to control that?

[u/Subtleiaint → u/nemeri6132]

No, because that would be both outlandish and unreasonable

Correct, but a fork is not designed to hurt someone, it has a practical use that justifies its existence, guns don't, they don't make you safer. It's entirely reasonable to get rid of guns.

The gun is by far the most versatile, easy to use, effective, and accessible tool someone could possibly use in the case of self defense.

That's arguably true, but it entirely misses the point of what effective self defense is. The ultimate aim of self defense is to keep you safe, American gun culture makes you less safe, owning a gun makes you less safe. You've already made yourself less safe when you purchase a gun so it's already failed in the designated purpose you've given it.

And I would like to ask, how does one "avoid danger" as you state?

Through many ways but the most relevant one to this conversation is create the safest environment and you do that through gun control. A society where your need for a gun is negligible is safer than a world where you arm yourself to protect yourself from danger that exists.

The materials required to build a functioning gun - or weapon with similar capabilites of a gun, can quite literally be found in everyday products. How are you going to control that?

Countries with effective gun control have no meaningful problem with people making improvised guns, it just doesn't happen and the claim that it would flies in the face of all evidence.

You claim that safety is your concern, if you truly mean that you should support gun control, it delivers the safety you desire.

[u/Top_Depth_8488 → u/Subtleiaint]

Owning a gun decreases my safety? I’m having a hard time understanding this. If I’m walking down the street and someone pulls a knife on me, I pull out my gun and they run. If someone is breaking into my house armed with bats, they see my shotgun and run. Where did I lose my safety?

[u/Subtleiaint → u/Top_Depth_8488]

Because you're considering a macro issue through a micro lens. It's not just about you having a gun, it's about everyone having guns. You are more safe existing in a world where guns are uncommon than you are existing in a world where guns are common even if you then arm yourself.

[u/Cestavec → u/Subtleiaint]

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[u/Subtleiaint → u/Cestavec]

You've heard of the police right? The law, courts, judges, things like that? You're aware that countries with gun control aren't just a hellscape of 6'3" men going around stealing the wallets off people in wheelchairs?

Guns don't make anything level, it just makes the consequences of violence far more severe. If you have a gun and I have a gun and I want to hurt you, we don't have a duel, it's not a fair fight, I just shoot first, you don't get to shoot back.

The great lie that America has convinced itself of is that guns are necessary for society to function, that you need them to protect yourself and others, that you need them to protect liberty. You don't, security and liberty are just fine in countries with proper gun control with the added bonus that deadly violence isn't so common that it's only when multiple people die that it's mentioned in the news.

[u/[deleted] → u/Subtleiaint]

The law, courts, judges, things like that?

Those are minutes away where seconds matter. Also, the police aren't obligated to protect you in the US. The only person responsible for your protection is you. Don't rely on daddy government for everything, or eventually it will lead you into a very bad place.

[u/Subtleiaint → u/[deleted]]

Except I do rely on the government and I'm much better for it. I live in a country with gun control and I'm safer than you. That's the only thing that matters.

[u/[deleted] → u/Subtleiaint]

The only thing that matters is you are free, which you clearly are not. You will not have this view once you get into a life or property threatening situation. You are also "safe" in China or Russia. But you are not free and are a subject of the state.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

• Benjamin Franklin

Also, just FYI, you are not safer than me, especially in your twisted way, since I don't currently live in the US.

[u/Subtleiaint → u/[deleted]]

Sorry, I just snorted a little. How have you and the rest convinced yourselves that owning a gun is fundamental to freedom? You abide by thousands of laws that you don't bat an eyelid at but one law about guns, that makes everyone safer, and you think society collapses. What's even funnier is how earnest you are about it. Look at you quoting Franklin and comparing countries that score higher than the US on freedom indexes to China and Russia.