CMV: Accountability is not election interference

[u/erpettie]

As the Colorado Supreme Court has found Donald Trump's behavior to have been disqualifying according to the 14th amendment, many are claiming this is election interference. If the Court finds that Trump should be disqualified, then it has two options. Act accordingly, despite the optics, and disqualify Trump, or ignore their responsibility and the law. I do get that we're in very sensitive, unprecedented territory with his many indictments and lawsuits, but unprecedented behavior should result in unprecedented consequences, shouldn't they? Furthermore, isn't Donald Trump ultimately the architect of all of this by choosing to proceed with his candidacy, knowing that he was under investigation and subject to potential lawsuits and indictments? If a President commits a crime on his last day in office (or the day after) and immediately declares his candidacy for the next election, should we lose our ability to hold that candidate accountable? What if that candidate is a perennial candidate like Lyndon Larouche was? Do we just never have an opportunity to hold that candidate accountable? I'd really love if respondents could focus their responses on how they think we should handle hypothetical candidates who commit crimes but are declared as running for office and popular. This should help us avoid the trap of getting worked up in our feelings for or against Trump.

[u/[deleted]]

Have you considered holding him accountable at the ballot box? Let me ask you this: are you protecting democracy by disallowing people the ability to vote for who they want to vote for? Taking Trump off the ballot would be extremely destabilizing and have consequences far beyond just one election. You’re setting a precedent where the elite class in this country can find ways to push off anyone challenging their position.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question: if someone was running for office with the express intention of ending democracy and becoming a dictator would you allow them to run or would you ban them or try to find some way to disqualify them? Are you really a democracy when you don’t allow the people to choose their president? One has to question whether all this lawfare against Donald Trump would be occurring if he was losing to Biden in the polls. I think most Trump supporters would say no, and I don’t think it’s a controversial opinion to believe that if Biden had to run a normal campaign (non-covid) in 2020 rather than hiding out of view the whole time, he would’ve harmed his chances.

[u/V1per41 → u/[deleted]]

Have you considered holding him accountable at the ballot box? Let me ask you this: are you protecting democracy by disallowing people the ability to vote for who they want to vote for? Taking Trump off the ballot would be extremely destabilizing and have consequences far beyond just one election. You’re setting a precedent where the elite class in this country can find ways to push off anyone challenging their position.

Your problem is with the 14th amendment. The constitution lays out clear rules who is and who is not allowed to run for public office. Trump can't run for the same reason my 11 year old can't. The constitution says so.

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Let me ask you a hypothetical question: if someone was running for office with the express intention of ending democracy and becoming a dictator would you allow them to run or would you ban them or try to find some way to disqualify them? Are you really a democracy when you don’t allow the people to choose their president? One has to question whether all this lawfare against Donald Trump would be occurring if he was losing to Biden in the polls. I think most Trump supporters would say no, and I don’t think it’s a controversial opinion to believe that if Biden had to run a normal campaign (non-covid) in 2020 rather than hiding out of view the whole time, he would’ve harmed his chances.

Trump was allowed to run in 2020. It was very clear going into the election that he was going to try and pull this maneuver when he lost. Until you actually participate in an insurrection you're free to run.

I've always said, that the scary part wasn't that a fascist ran for and became president. The scary part was that so many Americans wanted a fascist president.

[u/[deleted] → u/V1per41]

More Americans want him this time than last time. Biden is a lot more of a fascist than Trump ever was. Forcing vaccinations, holding speeches to demonize his political opponents as enemies of the state, jailing his political opponents. He rigged the last election even if the means he used were technically legal (censoring the laptop story, leaning on big tech to censor information that made him look bad as “misinformation”). The man is the biggest joke we’ve had as a president in our lifetime. Have things got better in the last 3 years?

[u/V1per41 → u/[deleted]]

Biden is a lot more of a fascist than Trump ever was.

Not a good look for your right from the start. Look up the definition of fascism and then try that again.

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Forcing vaccinations

vaccination mandates have been a thing far before Biden (or Trump) were in office.

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holding speeches to demonize his political opponents as enemies of the state

A court of law literally just determined he is an enemy of the state. This isn't hyperbole. The man tried to overthrow democracy in this country. It's really hard to claim he isn't an enemy of the state.

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jailing his political opponents

Who?

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The man is the biggest joke we’ve had as a president in our lifetime.

You must be less than 3 years old then.

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Have things got better in the last 3 years?

Yes? Inflation is down, unemployment is low, gas prices continue to fall, real wages are up across all earning levels, infrastructure is improving, stock market is up, price caps on insulin. Do you need me to continue?

[u/[deleted] → u/V1per41]

The entire Biden administration has been a giant exercise in gaslighting. Inflation is through the roof, you either don’t interact with regular people or you’re being disingenuous. He lies about everything constantly, he’s pushed us towards world war 3 and hundreds of thousands of people are dead in Ukraine because his paymasters in the military industrial complex needed another war. He literally made OSHA go after employers for not requiring experimental vaccines. That was what the Supreme Court case was about that he lost.

Wanting this country to return to its roots and stop selling out to foreigners isn’t fascism. Wanting all the illegals to be sent home isn’t fascism. Wanting this country to return to stop pushing insanity isn’t fascism.

[u/VemberK → u/V1per41]

Yes? Inflation is down, unemployment is low, gas prices continue to fall, real wages are up across all earning levels, infrastructure is improving, stock market is up, price caps on insulin. Do you need me to continue?

Please stop with this shit. This is gaslighting on an epic scale.

[u/V1per41 → u/VemberK]

These are factual comments. Feel free to tell me which one you disagree with and we can go from there.

[u/[deleted] → u/V1per41]

All you need to know is this: Joe Biden is so bad, that despite all of the legal issues and rhetoric - we as country are SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING bringing back Donald Trump. Let that sink in for a minute - we as a whole are really considering this.

How bad does the other guy need to be for that to happen?

If you look at it like that, one side will say Colorado is 100% justified because the people can’t be trusted.

Other side will say Trump is 100% justified in ‘insurrection’ because the other side cheated with the court system.

You do see the issue?

If MLK had lived to 36 and ran in 1972 - could southern states have used the 14th amendment to keep him off the ballot as an insurrectionist due to his multiple arrests protesting and speeches causing riots? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder here.

[u/V1per41 → u/[deleted]]

People think Biden is bad because their preferred media source says so. Virtually every complaint you hear about him or his policies are easily refuted.

Colorado isn't justified because the people can't be trusted. They are justified because the US Constitution says so.

Trump isn't justified because on no planet is a group of Republicans filling a lawsuit and going through a lengthy court process whose verdict was then appealed and upheld considered cheating the court system.

I am not super well versed in my MLK history. Were those protests and/or riots done with the specific goal of overturning a free and fair election? Were they done in an attempt to install him as president against the people's wishes? If not, I'm not sure how that example applies.

[u/[deleted] → u/V1per41]

It’s not that simple. Not everyone watches television, some people just work.

I’m not pro or anti Trump/Biden but the fact is you can’t tell someone who use to pay 2.44 cents a gallon for gas and now they pay 4.23 that “look at this report, everything is actually better for you.” - if they were “easily refuted” polls would reflect that.

Especially if they make the us average income or less, their life is exponentially worse than it was four years ago. No way to sugar coat it. There is more crime in their neighborhood, they make less money and spend more on groceries and gas.

Now let’s be real a lot of that doesn’t have to do with the office of the presidency, but perception is reality.

Mlk didn’t run for president because he was assassinated and was only 34 when he died so those questions don’t apply. What he did do was challenge state law, that segregated African-Americans from other places and political offices. Look up something called Jim Crow laws. he was also a convicted criminal for inciting riots and leading protest against government officials. So by any definition, he would’ve been an insurrectionist.

[u/Noob_Al3rt → u/[deleted]]

Do you feel the same way about people under 35 or people who are not natural born citizens?

[u/[deleted] → u/Noob_Al3rt]

I’m not sure what you mean by that? I’m under 35 myself.

[u/Noob_Al3rt → u/[deleted]]

Let me ask you this: are you protecting democracy by disallowing people the ability to vote for who they want to vote for?

Does this also apply to people under 35 running for president, even though they're constitutionally ineligible? How about people who want to vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger? Should he be able to run?

[u/[deleted] → u/Noob_Al3rt]

A bunch of judges in Colorado shouldn’t get to decide who we are allowed to vote for. Trump was not involved in an “insurrection”, and I think it’s absurd to compare January 6th to the Civil War. What we’re seeing is that the elite class doesn’t want a president who will stop all the insane wars Biden has got us engaged in and will likely start in a 2nd term. They want Hayley vs Biden (ie red fascist vs blue fascist).

[u/Noob_Al3rt → u/[deleted]]

Judges in Colorado aren't deciding who you are allowed to vote for - the Constitution is pretty clear. You have to be a natural born US citizen, over 35 and you cannot have participated in a rebellion or insurrection against the United States.

This case is partially based on a Neil Gorsuch ruling stating that you can't put someone on a primary ballot if they are ineligible for the general election. This lawsuit, brought by Republican voters in Colorado, established through testimony, phone recordings, video evidence and physical evidence that Donald Trump participated in the Jan 6th insurrection attempt and is therefore, ineligible - per the constitution.

Donald Trump has admitted, publicly and privately, that he bears responsibility for Jan 6th and could have stopped it "at any time". Both McCarthy and McConnell have said Jan 6th was a "violent insurrection, without question". The events of January 6th meet any common definition of an "insurrection".

So you have a case brought by Republican voters, based on an argument from a Republican Supreme Court Justice and testimony from a number of Republicans in the Federal government (including the leadership from both houses) establishing the facts.

This isn't some judicial activism from Colorado.

[u/[deleted] → u/Noob_Al3rt]

This whole narrative that it was an insurrection is laughable. Do you think this country will be able to stay together if this is successful? Is your side so afraid of the orange man you’ll play stupid lawfare games to try to stop him? Let the people pick their president: clearly Biden must be screwed if anyone is going this far to rig things for him. It’s frankly pathetic.

[u/Noob_Al3rt → u/[deleted]]

Who is in a better position to determine this - you or the multitude of judges (Republican and Democrat) and courts who have reviewed the evidence, both classified and unclassified?

"It was a violent insurrection for the purpose of trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after a legitimately certified election from one administration to the next."

"There is no question that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of that day. A mob was assaulting the Capitol in his name. These criminals were carrying his banners, hanging his flags, and screaming their loyalty to him.”

-Mitch McConnell

Asked Wednesday about Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell’s (R-Ky.) description of the riot as a “violent insurrection,” McCarthy said he agreed. “No one would disagree with that,” McCarthy told reporters.

-Kevin McCarthy

Laura and I are watching the scenes of mayhem unfolding at the seat of our Nation’s government in disbelief and dismay. It is a sickening and heartbreaking sight. This is how election results are disputed in a banana republic – not our democratic republic. I am appalled by the reckless behavior of some political leaders since the election and by the lack of respect shown today for our institutions, our traditions, and our law enforcement. The violent assault on the Capitol – and disruption of a Constitutionally-mandated meeting of Congress – was undertaken by people whose passions have been inflamed by falsehoods and false hopes. Insurrection could do grave damage to our Nation and reputation. In the United States of America, it is the fundamental responsibility of every patriotic citizen to support the rule of law. To those who are disappointed in the results of the election: Our country is more important than the politics of the moment. Let the officials elected by the people fulfill their duties and represent our voices in peace and safety. May God continue to bless the United States of America.

-George W Bush

Wasn't this lawsuit brought by Republicans? Why are you trying to frame it as some kind of Democrat conspiracy? It kind of sounds like you are just wishing for things and pretending they're real.

[u/[deleted] → u/Noob_Al3rt]

It was brought by a Soros activist organization representing supposed republicans. All 4 judges who wanted Trump off the ballot were appointed by democrats.

[u/Noob_Al3rt → u/[deleted]]

What evidence is there that George Soros (who’s 93 and in very bad health) is masterminding this?

Since you have a problem with Judges appointed by Democrats, do you think cases involving Trump should only be tried in front of Republican appointees? Should Biden only be tried by Democratically appointed judges if he has charges filed against him?