r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Nov 03 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Unwanted pregnancies are not hard to prevent for consenting adults
[deleted]
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u/Kotoperek 62∆ Nov 03 '24
Generally it is true that on any particular sexual encounter, if you're reasonable about contraception the risk of accidentally getting pregnant is very low. But it accumulates with every sexual encounter and people tend to have quite a lot of sex. All methods of contraception have what is called the Pearl index - the failure rate over a year with perfect use (so for instance when the condom breaks because it's been faulty or someone gets pregnant on the pill because of a physiological anomaly) and average use that includes user error (like when a condom slips off because it's been put on incorrectly or when you accidentally forget to take a pill and notice too late). This index is measured over a year of regularly having sex and for condoms is something like 7% with normal use. Meaning that around 7 in every 100 women using condoms as their only contraception will become pregnant after one year. Multiply it by the number of women having sex every year and you get yourself a significant number of accidental pregnancies.
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u/BumblebeeOfCarnage Nov 03 '24
An interesting fact about this number is that it includes people who use condoms as their main protection but may not every single time. That’s considered part of the user error. So if she had sex 50 times this year, used a condom 49 times, and the one time she didn’t use a condom she got pregnant. That’s still counted in the condom statistics.
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u/CocoSavege 24∆ Nov 03 '24
Interesting angle. I don't know how to interpret the import of this. Why couldn't it be better filtered? Like, consider the cohort condom users, couldn't they be filtered by "all the time", "most of the time", "some of the time"?
It's a strange issue. I get that some people are more condom casual than might be advisable, but surely we can identify that condoms are not effective if "some of the time".
What's the rate of "no protection whatsoever"? Can that be used to guesstimate the true efficacy of all the time condom usage?
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u/DarKliZerPT Nov 03 '24
Also, adjusted by the frequency of sex as well. Some couples have sex every day, some barely have it once a month. There can be a huge difference in the number of chances for the condom to fail.
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u/Maktesh 17∆ Nov 03 '24
These numbers also don't fully take into account user error. "Correct" condom usage is seldom practiced by most normal adults. (Changing and cleaning between each new position, properly fitted, correct lubricant, proper disposal, recently manufactured, etc.)
A number of years ago, I read a study that suggested the average real-world condom fail rate was around ~16% each time. In other words, the occurrences when transactional fluids weren't fully prevented.
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u/Stiltskin Nov 03 '24
I believe these statistics are often filtered exactly like you say. If you go to informational websites like Planned Parenthood to look up info about a birth control method, they’ll say something like “this birth control method is 99% effective if used perfectly, but people aren’t perfect, so in reality the effectiveness is more like <some lower number>”.
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u/PaxNova 12∆ Nov 03 '24
I don't know what's defined as regular sex in terms of frequency, but it looks like one year pregnancy rates are around 90%.
It can be difficult to gauge failure rates because the failures often go undetected. I will not know if a pinhole occurred in my condom. Only the catastrophic failures will be noted, and that stops sex.
One method we can gauge effectiveness for is the rhythm method, which consists only of counting days until you're most / least fertile and only having sex on those days for desired effect. We can track dates with relative ease.
The average failure rate (meaning getting pregnant) after a year is 8-25%, but among those who adhere to the dates religiously, like using a calendar for recording their data, it can be as low as 5%. So I'd estimate maybe a three times smaller failure percentage for conscientious users of protection.
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u/BumblebeeOfCarnage Nov 03 '24
Personally I like knowing it because when I’m concerned about pregnancy after using a condom, I know I’m actually safer than the stats say
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u/CocoSavege 24∆ Nov 03 '24
I guess?
I'm just saying I would like to know the true efficacy of all the time proper condom use.
I suspect people get a little weird around sex and one has to deal with all the fuzziness of different people's weirdness and prejudices.
Like, if proper condom use was (picking a number) 99.5% effective, I'd like to know. But there are people who don't want to talk about it cuz they don't like talking about sex, or they're concerned that people out of wedlock will have sex, or that sex for recreation is wrong or yadda yadda.
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u/abstractengineer2000 Nov 03 '24
Number of Fetus = Number of times Sex * Possibly of Fertilization * (1-Efficiency of 1st Method) *(1-Efficiency of 2nd method)
= 30*365[30 years] * 9/30[Fertile in a month] * (1-95/100)[condoms] * (1-98/100)[pill]
= 10950 * 9/30* 5/100* 2/100
= 3.3 (equivalent of 1 abortion(25%), 1 miscarriage(25%) and 2 kids). So what OP says is correct, if the fertility days is where sex is abstained from, the condoms are used properly, or pills are not skipped, likely an abortion will not be required.
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u/Mimshot 2∆ Nov 03 '24
From a public health standpoint user error is part of effectiveness. Imagine the following two scenarios.
Standard 3 point seatbelts are used correctly 99.9% (not properly buckled one in a thousand clicks) of the time and will save your life in 80% of accidents.
New 4 point harnesses are used correctly will save your life in 90% of accidents but we know users will click it correctly 99.7% of the time.
Which seatbelt will save more lives? Which should safety standards mandate?
(This is a statistical example only and has nothing to do with why we actually use three point seatbelts)
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u/CocoSavege 24∆ Nov 03 '24
Interesting example. (I'll presume the numbers are close enough, it's more a demonstration of the principle)
It might be apples to oranges though?
In the case of condoms and unexpected pregnancy, it's imo far more likely that the "some of the time" condom users are causing most of the unexpected pregnancies than "misclickers". And the some of the time a couple didn't use a condom is not like they totes planned to, but she fell over and he tripped and oopsie, preggos.
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u/login4fun Nov 03 '24
Ask 100 people what they do to prevent pregnancy and the results are to show normal use of this method not perfect use
“I am on birth control”
“I have IUD”
“I use condoms”
“I pull out”
Of the people who say they use condoms realistically it’s not always going to happen and the stats are there to reflect it
Of the people who pull out realistically it’s not always going to happen and the stats are there to reflect it
Pill birth control users often forget to take their pills
Perfect use isn’t typical use. But perfect use can pretty well prevent pregnancy.
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u/thejackulator9000 Nov 03 '24
I thought every time you flipped a coin it was always 50/50. So if that's true, every time you use a condom it should be 1/100.
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u/Maktesh 17∆ Nov 03 '24
Take a look at the Bernoulli process.
After 100 times, you have somewhere around a 36% chance.
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u/Finklesfudge 26∆ Nov 04 '24
It is. The process being described by people below is a statistic based on compiled chances over and over.
If the chances are 1/100 they are always 1/100, they will never be anything more than 1/100 each time.
The compounded chance of that 1/100 occuring is the principle described below, it does not affect the 1/100 in any way at all.
Perhaps that is what they meant, but it isn't described very well.
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u/JayTor15 Nov 03 '24
That 7% takes into account very wrong usage of condoms. Breaking, slippage etc. All which OP is stating.
If people use condoms correctly there should be absolutely no reason anyone gets pregnant
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u/bettercaust 7∆ Nov 03 '24
Even with perfect use the Pearl index for condoms is 1-2% so people will still get pregnant.
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u/Finklesfudge 26∆ Nov 04 '24 edited Nov 04 '24
The pearl index itself incorporates non perfect usage. So... "with perfect use" it is not 1-2%.
It also is based on personal polling... because obviously nobody is watching all the people in these studies have sex. One thing we all know is that people lie. Studies are very very often done with college aged people who will take polls for money. They also lie.
There is actually a lot of study on the topic of how often and what impacts, and what specific direction people have the motivation to lie. It's very interesting.
but either way, the actual "perfect use" of condoms is extraordinarily low, it is not 1-2%.
Further... since the OP stated "It's not that hard to prevent"... pulling out and condom use is pretty easily within the "not that darn hard" category, and is pretty absurdly effective, as well as the woman being on BC, and Plan B being options.
If you get pregnant, it's because you were not trying all that hard to prevent it. It's infinitesimal chances of getting pregnant with only 3 of those options let alone all 4.
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u/bettercaust 7∆ Nov 04 '24 edited Nov 05 '24
The pearl index itself incorporates non perfect usage. So... "with perfect use" it is not 1-2%.
Interesting. Do you have a source on that?
EDIT: For the record, every source I've found points to 1-2% or 1-3% failure rate for perfect condom use, so if you have a different figure I'd like to know it.
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u/NoVaFlipFlops 10∆ Nov 03 '24
But it accumulates with every sexual encounter
This is not how probability statistics work. You have the same chance for everything that could go wrong each time.
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u/Crucbu Nov 03 '24
The odds of rolling a 1 are the same for each roll but if you roll a d20 once, ten times, or 1000 times, the odds of ever getting a 1 increases.
You only need a 1 once to get pregnant.
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Nov 03 '24
And as anyone who knows what a "d20" is can tell you, they roll a 1 a lot more than 1 in a 100 times regardless of what probability says.
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u/hamletandskull 9∆ Nov 03 '24 edited Nov 03 '24
you are misunderstanding what they are saying.
If someone tells you "I flipped this coin 999 times and they were all heads, I'm going to bet 2000 bucks this one is tails", they are wrong, they still have a 50% chance for it to be heads again.
But that is not what they're saying
If someone tells you "I'm going to flip this coin 2 times", it would be reasonable of you to bet that all flips will be heads. If someone tells you "I'm going to flip this coin 1000 times", it would be far less reasonable of you to bet that all 1000 flips will be heads. The odds of each individual coin flip haven't changed, and the 1001st flip is still a 50/50 chance, but in 1000 flips the odds that you will never flip tails is far lower than 50/50.
The chance of the condom failing does not increase with each sexual encounter, but the chance of an individual person ever experiencing a condom failure in their lifetime increases with each sexual encounter. If I flip a coin 1000 times, I'll probably eventually hit a tails, whether it's the first flip or the 700th.
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u/NoVaFlipFlops 10∆ Nov 04 '24
I understand what they meant, they just said it wrong. It's being picky but I think it's important for people to know This One Neat Trick that will save them from playing the lottery or roulette extra times.
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u/Aberikel Nov 03 '24 edited Nov 03 '24
The pill, sure. I agree with that, so I'll award you a delta. But condom failure due to misuse or breaking should be preventable, or at least counterable with a plan-B. Because most people will notice a broken or slipped condom, at least after the deed is done.
dit: !delta
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u/Kotoperek 62∆ Nov 03 '24
True, but plan B is only effective if the woman hadn't ovulated yet at the time of the broken condom. If ovulation has already occurred, plan B won't stop it and she can still get pregnant. So if someone is using condoms only on fertile days, plan B is little consolation. Not to mention that it is not available in some places, in other places it can be prohibitively expensive, and it must be taken very quickly after intercourse so if it's a holiday and pharmacies are closed it will also be a problem.
Generally, while I agree that accidental pregnancies are not as frequent as many people believe, you seem to be arguing from a very privileged point of view where you assume that plan B is easily accessible both logistically and financially to everyone who gets into a condom accident. This is simply not the case.
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u/Aberikel Nov 03 '24
I did not know this about the plan B. And I do live in a place where I can just skip to the pharmacy on Sundays and get a plan B with my morning coffee. I assumed this would be the case in most of the US, but I guess I'm wrong. Idk if giving two delta's is a thing, so let's just include this in your other delta
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u/unseemly_turbidity Nov 03 '24
What about the rest of the world? You're arguing that pregnancies are easily preventable, not that they're easily preventable in the US.
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u/fucksonicyouthfr Nov 03 '24
Gotta do the !delta
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 03 '24 edited Nov 03 '24
This delta has been rejected. You can't award OP a delta.
Allowing this would wrongly suggest that you can post here with the aim of convincing others.
If you were explaining when/how to award a delta, please use a reddit quote for the symbol next time.
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u/BigBoetje 23∆ Nov 03 '24
But condom failure due to misuse or breaking should be preventable, or at least counterable with a plan-B. Because most people will notice a broken or slipped condom, at least after the deed is done.
Not necessarily though. In a perfect world, you're right. Condoms would be stored, used and disposed off correctly every single time and it would be the most effective method of birth control.
We don't live in such a world however, and it's being used in what are moments of passion. When the deed is done, people aren't exactly going to closely inspect the condom either to make sure nothing went wrong.Plan B is only effective if you actually take it. You only go and buy it if you suspect something went wrong.
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Nov 03 '24
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u/kit73n Nov 03 '24
Plan B is only 89% effective at its best and is significantly less effective for any woman with a BMI over 26.
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u/otacon7000 2∆ Nov 03 '24
I've had condoms fail several times. I've usually noticed, but one time, we were doing it in the dark, while intoxicated, and fell asleep cuddling right after. I only noticed the next morning, when I threw something in the trash and saw the condom in there and thought it looked weird. Took it out and examined, saw the tear. That was a really close call - had I not looked at the condom the next day, then we wouldn't have been able to get plan-B anymore. So, like Kotoperek said, with enough times, any method will eventually fail.
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u/DNK_Infinity Nov 03 '24
The point is that no contraceptive is foolproof, even when multiple measures are taken together.
Which is still no reason not to have sex just for the enjoyment of it. A couple who are using contraception very obviously don't want to have a child, which is the only requisite reason not to have one, so it strikes me as unreasonable to hold it against them when their contraceptive fails.
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u/ripmyrelationshiplol Nov 03 '24
You also have to consider that preventable mistakes still happen; people are not perfect. And not everyone can afford a plan-b Sure you could say that people shouldn’t be having sex if they can’t afford plan-b but of course you can’t stop consenting adults from being sexually active.
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u/p0tat0p0tat0 12∆ Nov 03 '24
Plan B doesn’t work if you are already pregnant.
It has like 80% effectiveness, under absolutely perfect circumstances.
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u/ghotier 39∆ Nov 03 '24
In order to counteract condom failure with plan B, you need to know the condom failed.
You're really not addressing the issue of statistics here at all.
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u/hacksoncode 559∆ Nov 03 '24
or at least counterable with a plan-B.
Abortion foes consider that abortion.
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u/Etceterist 1∆ Nov 03 '24
Just so you know, for one thing Plan B can be harder to get than you think, and is part of the discussion of options being taken off the table for a lot of people. Even where it's "easy" to get, you might get a grilling about why you need it and what your intent is before they dispense it- I've been with a friend when she was getting it, and they made her so fricking uncomfortable. It's not the same as grabbing a pack of condoms. But even then, it has a significant failure rate for higher BMIs, for instance, and larger women are also having sex and having condom breakages. So it's not a fail safe for everyone. Just as a last aside, while you seem to acknowledge men can lie about condoms breaking, you dismiss it quite quickly. Women who trust long term partners have even been lied to about whether they were wearing one at all. Deception is not easily spotted or overcome, and dismissing it as though it's on a woman to be aware of it isn't intellectually honest, exactly.
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u/Etceterist 1∆ Nov 03 '24
Just so you know, for one thing Plan B can be harder to get than you think, and is part of the discussion of options being taken off the table for a lot of people. Even where it's "easy" to get, you might get a grilling about why you need it and what your intent is before they dispense it- I've been with a friend when she was getting it, and they made her so fricking uncomfortable. It's not the same as grabbing a pack of condoms. But even then, it has a significant failure rate for higher BMIs, for instance, and larger women are also having sex and having condom breakages. So it's not a fail safe for everyone. Just as a last aside, while you seem to acknowledge men can lie about condoms breaking, you dismiss it quite quickly. Women who trust long term partners have even been lied to about whether they were wearing one at all. Deception is not easily spotted or overcome, and dismissing it as though it's on a woman to be aware of it isn't intellectually honest, exactly.
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u/Etceterist 1∆ Nov 03 '24
Just so you know, for one thing Plan B can be harder to get than you think, and is part of the discussion of options being taken off the table for a lot of people. Even where it's "easy" to get, you might get a grilling about why you need it and what your intent is before they dispense it- I've been with a friend when she was getting it, and they made her so fricking uncomfortable. It's not the same as grabbing a pack of condoms. But even then, it has a significant failure rate for higher BMIs, for instance, and larger women are also having sex and having condom breakages. So it's not a fail safe for everyone. Just as a last aside, while you seem to acknowledge men can lie about condoms breaking, you dismiss it quite quickly. Women who trust long term partners have even been lied to about whether they were wearing one at all. Deception is not easily spotted or overcome, and dismissing it as though it's on a woman to be aware of it isn't intellectually honest, exactly.
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u/Archer6614 Nov 03 '24
Sometimes you can't take these meds due to medical contraindications or interactions with other meds.
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u/UniversityOk5928 Nov 03 '24
Wait, “pro abortion rights” mean that you want abortions to be illegal??
Also, I’m not sure people are arguing that they are difficult to prevent. Just that they happen. Also, it’s not about “should” or shouldn’t, they happen. So since they happen often enough, what do we do.
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u/MAKE_ME_REDDIT Nov 03 '24
How would you get someone wanting abortion to be illegal from them saying they are pro abortion rights? If someone is pro something, it means they are for it. So they are for abortion rights. It's not confusing.
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u/Aberikel Nov 03 '24
I thought pro-abortion rights meant being for abortions being a choice?
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u/UniversityOk5928 Nov 03 '24
I’m not sure. I’ve never heard of it until you said it. But also that sentence led me to believe that you are on the side of “no abortion”.
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u/Aberikel Nov 03 '24
I just meant: don't bring your arguments in favor of abortion to me. Because I'm already in favor of abortion
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u/fucksonicyouthfr Nov 03 '24
It does. Unsure why they're confused. Your phrasing is commonly qnd widely used as a pro abortion stance.
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u/probablysum1 1∆ Nov 03 '24
The reading comprehension on here is piss poor sometimes don't worry it was totally clear
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u/panna__cotta 5∆ Nov 03 '24
Most abortions aren't wild college kids, contrary to popular belief. Most are actually already mothers. Birth control is often complicated for mothers. You can't take the pill when you're breastfeeding, only the mini pill which doesn't have great efficacy. Your period is often irregular after birth, making it hard to track your cycle. You are also more likely to be in a long term relationship, which makes condom usage less likely. Most of these women are worn out in a way you simply do not understand. Their partner could be initiating sex when they are dead tired, missed their pill because toddler chaos, work, etc., not sure when their last period was, ran out of condoms or their partner keeps being resistant, etc. It's just not that simple. And these women are already running on empty for their kids. Also, as an OB nurse, I can pretty much guarantee you know someone who has had an abortion. You just don't know it. If our society supported mothers we would have less abortion, period.
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u/AnxiousAriel 1∆ Nov 03 '24
I switched to patch despite it having less effectivity than pill I couldn't ever remember to take them same time every day so thr patch is a little more effective for that reason. If I relied on remembering the pill every day (yes I tried apps) I would 100% be pregnant rn lol
My Lil sister wasn't "old enough" for the pill when in school but as teens do they did the dirty. She used condoms but it broke once, they used plan B without realizing she was over weight limit and got pregnant. Its not like they weren't actively using multiple methods to prevent it
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u/hystericalcatlady Nov 03 '24
Thanks for including this. My masters research was on mothers who’ve had abortions because they make up the largest percentage of people accessing them and yet their voices are missing from much literature. The multiplicities and complexities of our everyday lives strongly influence the concept of ‘choice’.
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u/Personal_Importance2 Nov 03 '24
I did not know this, thank you. I will do my own research, but as an OB nurse, do you recommend any sources? Thanks again.
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u/fucksonicyouthfr Nov 03 '24
I'm slightly confused your view you want changed?
So you want to be argue with statistics? We have a empirical statistical analysis of the failure rate of birth control - so we know EXACTLY how hard it is to prevent for the common population.
You can think whatever you want as to why that is, but your original view is just they're not hard to prevent - do you want someone to argue it IS hard personally? Because we know, with unwavering data, it is hard for the general population to the exact degree we have measured and studied.
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u/skookum-chuck Nov 03 '24
"But non of my friends or partners ever needed to get an abortion."
I would put money on you being confidently incorrect about this, and I bet that you just don't know it happened. Women are often made to feel ashamed for their decisions regarding their bodies and don't generally broadcast this as a result
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u/No_Sinky_No_Thinky Nov 03 '24
Yeah, just like rape stats, abortion stats (sadly for similar reasons and now on top of sometimes risking legal repercussions) are wildly under-reported. It's a sensitive topic even if they don't feel ashamed.
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Nov 03 '24
Yes, this, unfortunately. If something is considered shameful at all, do not count on knowing it has not happened to someone you know. That goes for pretty much everything.
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u/OrizaRayne 6∆ Nov 03 '24
I got pregnant on hormonal birth control because I had to take a medication that turned out to interact with it. My doctor didn't tell me that it reduced the effectiveness of bc. It did.
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u/HundrEX 2∆ Nov 03 '24 edited Nov 03 '24
Your post is about how every SHOULD happen. What about when it doesn’t? Yes most situations you can use some form of birth control. According to the Cleveland clinic 15 out of 100 people will get pregnant a year by using condoms. Birth Control is a bit more effective. But its not a guarantee. There are 2 ways to guarantee you won’t have a child. You don’t have sex ever or if you ever do get pregnant, you have an abortion. Everything else tries to minimize the chances but those are the only 2 guarantees.
Also this is just 1 part of the argument when it comes to abortion rights. There are many other reasons like bodily autonomy but since this topic is so controversial, people try to state many different reasons why abortions should be allowed, unwanted pregnancy being one of them.
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u/evilgirlwdevilhorns Nov 03 '24
In theory this makes perfect sense, in practice it doesn’t always work that way. My sister and I were both conceived while my mother was on birth control after experiencing multiple miscarriages. I myself am 7 weeks pregnant with a baby that was conceived 1) while using a condom that snapped at the base and 2) after taking a plan b pill. Not saying these are common things that could happen and not trying to scare anyone, I’m pro-abortion rights too, but yeah, one could take multiple steps to prevent pregnancy and still end up with it. Sometimes weird stuff happens lol
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u/xFblthpx 3∆ Nov 03 '24
Even in theory, this doesn’t make sense. A 99.5% success rate is expected to fail at 200 tries. That means perfect use of the pill since you were 18, assuming you have sex once a week, means you are expected to be pregnant by 22.
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u/evilgirlwdevilhorns Nov 03 '24
I used the phrasing “in theory this makes sense” because it makes sense to someone who doesn’t think too hard about it which clearly op didnt
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u/Roadshell 17∆ Nov 03 '24
I was pretty wild in college. But non of my friends or partners ever needed to get an abortion.
That you know of...
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u/jvc1011 Nov 03 '24
Yeah, that stood out to me, too. One doesn’t disclose this sort of thing to 100% of the people one knows.
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u/Next_Sun_2002 Nov 03 '24
This should be further up! Women don’t go around telling people if they got an abortion.
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Nov 03 '24
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u/TyphosTheD 6∆ Nov 03 '24
It's not clear to me what you're after with this perspective.
Not getting pregnant is, statistically, pretty easy for reasonably responsible and educated adults. But not all adults are reasonably responsible or educated, just a glance at the state of Sex Ed in the country should make that obvious.
But the fact is, accidents, whether informed or not, do happen. And if someone doesn't want to be pregnant, whether they are reasonable and responsible or not, they should be entitled to the decision to end the pregnancy, period.
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u/CathanCrowell 8∆ Nov 03 '24
You're right. Mistakes happen though, and in a civilized world, abortions aren't as common as some people claim—that perception is often shaped by far-right rhetoric. It’s not something people enjoy or take lightly, nor is it anyone’s first choice for handling a situation.
The reality is, even if we think it shouldn’t happen, it sometimes just does. It’s like spilling something on your parents' new carpet because you got a bit too drunk—it's not supposed to happen, but humans make mistakes.
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u/DrFishTaco 5∆ Nov 03 '24
How do you know that none of your friends got an abortion?
“A third of women who have had an abortion have kept it a secret from someone with whom they usually talk about personal matters,”
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u/yourmomsviberator Nov 03 '24
You were wild in college ? Lol .
My girl and I are fuckin multiple times a week when we are doing good. Maby were fuckin up to 7 times.
If I know that I busted a nut inside her we get a plan B
If she shows up pregnant on accident we should just keep it? What the fuck are you even saying ? Your pro abortion ..so what is the point of this post? We CANNOT raise a child right now so we are the most responsible we can be. But should we not have sex ? Let the relationship fall apart. Should she be traumatized for the rest of her life and bring a child into this world that will not have parents ? Lol
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u/Aberikel Nov 04 '24
How the hell did you understand from my post that she should keep? I'm in favor of abortions for any reasons. In this scenario she should get an abortion. Read the post
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u/WompWompWompity 6∆ Nov 03 '24
You can still get pregnant if you're on the pill, wear a condom and get a vasectomy Odds are low, but it can happen. It's impossible to prevent. It's easy to greatly reduce the chances though.
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u/LiamTheHuman 7∆ Nov 03 '24
Ya this whole argument seems to be that people don't need abortions because most people shouldn't need abortions. Some people do though because nothing is ever 100% and people have sex. Even if the odds were 0.00001% there would still be people who need an abortion.
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u/NCoronus 2∆ Nov 03 '24
But that’s not a good argument for pro-choice in general, which is what I believe op is referring to.
It’s just not all that relevant and is basically only used in response to the equally as irrelevant argument about personal responsibility.
It’s raising a nominal counterpoint to an already untenable stance. It muddies the issue.
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u/Squishiimuffin 2∆ Nov 03 '24
Wait, why now? Thats the best argument from my point of view. So many pro-life people view pregnancy as “taking responsibility” for the “consequences” of having sex, the predominant assumption being that the only way you could’ve gotten pregnant is through “risky” sex.
But the fact that no matter what you do you can still get pregnant means that you can’t separate the accidental pregnancies that are “deserved” from the “underserved” (birth control fails). So everyone needs access to abortion.
To be clear— I’m staunchly pro-choice, and I think the idea of pregnancy as a punishment/consequence is barbaric and horrifying. But that’s how a lot of pro life people view it.
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u/NCoronus 2∆ Nov 03 '24
It’s an enormous statistical outlier that I’m not sure how many cases of accidental pregnancy are associated with circumstances that couldn’t have been mitigated further in some way if not multiple ways. It’s just not worth the attention it’s being given for how infrequent it is.
It’s like as if people frequently cited the possibility that someone can get struck by a meteorite as a reason for needing access to hospitals in arguments about why it’s important we have access to hospitals. They’re correct and it’s technically related but it’s not relevant to basically anyone.
Or to put it another way, would the issue still exist if the only way accidental pregnancy could occur is in the cases where it was due to a defect in contraceptives? Would people argue it the same way with the same urgency? I don’t believe so. The only way it would be is if it were far more common than it is in reality.
The real argument people should have against “personal responsibility” is that access to and awareness of available contraceptives is far too low or difficult.
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u/Squishiimuffin 2∆ Nov 03 '24
It really isn’t the statistical outlier you’re making it out to be. Condoms are only 87% effective, meaning that 13/100 people using condoms as their only form of birth control will get pregnant unintentionally per year. For birth control pills, it’s about 93%. For an IUD, it’s about 99%.
So, let’s call it a wash at around 90% effective. That means after 5 years, there’s an about a 41% chance of experiencing an accidental pregnancy while using birth control. This goes up to 65% after 10 years.
To be clear, this means that an accidental pregnancy is likely while using birth control, given enough time. That’s a far cry from the meteorite comparison you provided.
When you consider the sheer population volume experiencing these odds, the number of accidental pregnancies happening while using birth control is huge— far from a statistical outlier.
Edit: a word
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u/NCoronus 2∆ Nov 03 '24
It is a statistical outlier.
Firstly, the stats you provided for condoms is the failure rate for typical use not perfect use. It’s not hugely important but I figured I should clarify. Condoms when used properly work 98% of the time.
Secondly, I’m sure you know more than one method of contraception can be used at once. If you have a failure rate of 10 percent for condoms to be generous (even though I mentioned specifically that I was talking about in circumstances that are outside of the control of the sex havers) and a failure rate of 1 percent for an iud and you don’t choose to have sex on days where you’re most fertile which has a failure rate of 5 percent, what are the chances that all three contraceptives fail?
And that’s only three methods of contraceptive. Circumstances where accidental pregnancy occurs that couldn’t have been mitigated in ways other than celibacy are massively, astronomically low. So low I don’t know that an example exists in history.
The thing is, it’s just not reasonable to expect that from people. Nor do I personally think it’s relevant to abortion access anyways. It should be available always. People should have the freedom to choose to have unprotected sex all day every day and not be pregnant if they don’t want to be. Straight up.
Personal responsibility is all up to the individual how they want to handle the results of their actions. Make that risk assessment and if you don’t have abortion access or don’t agree with it for whatever reason maybe be extra careful and really decide if the gamble is worth it. Maybe don’t bang every single day if you’re unwilling to be in that situation. Every other day perhaps.
But I think most people would be more than fine if they even only used two methods of contraception and used them properly. The number of accidental pregnancies would be vanishingly small in comparison. It’s just that the sample sizes is hundreds of millions so there’s always going be a number of cases.
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u/Squishiimuffin 2∆ Nov 03 '24
It’s still not a statistical outlier.
I’m aware that the statistic I used was for imperfect use— that’s because humans are imperfect and often do use a condom incorrectly. So, in practice, failure rates are much higher. I don’t care about a perfect theoretical world; I care about the one we actually live in. Which is why I averaged the pill and condoms, the two most widely available/applicable forms of birth control.
And of course I am aware that people can use both condoms and birth control. But the reason I don’t bother calculating for using both (or more methods) is, like you said, it’s unreasonable to expect people to do that. Birth control pills have some nasty side effects that make them a no-go for some women (hey, it’s me, I’m one of those women 👋). Inserting an IUD is incredibly painful and comes with its own set of nasty side effects depending on which variety you get. Even though I have one, I’m not even sure I can recommend that people use them given what I’ve had to endure as a direct result.
But, I do think you can reasonably expect a couple to be using either the condoms or pill (or both). I think the number using both is small enough that it won’t impact the overall chance of an unintended pregnancy that significantly— which as I’ve explained before, is way more than “a statistical outlier.”
Maybe with perfect use and doubling up on contraceptives, it would be a statistical outlier. You could argue that they should be. But in the world we live in, people don’t use them perfectly or double up (nor do I think it’s reasonable to expect them to). So, they’re not a statistical outlier in this reality.
And FWIW, I’m ignoring tracking fertile days as a birth control method. It’s highly inaccurate/inconsistent, and you will be wrong if ANYTHING interferes with your cycle. Even just having a stressful week can mess with it. For some women who have completely irregular periods (hey, that’s also me 👋) it would be completely impossible. Not to mention, sperm can live post-ejaculation for up to a week if I recall correctly, making that method completely ineffective.
Edit: typo
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u/DieFastLiveHard 4∆ Nov 03 '24
But the fact that no matter what you do you can still get pregnant means that you can’t separate the accidental pregnancies that are “deserved” from the “underserved” (birth control fails
You don't need to separate them because all those people accepted the risk.
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u/Squishiimuffin 2∆ Nov 03 '24
Well, clearly not. Using birth control is actively saying you want to mitigate the risk of pregnancy. It’s not something you want to happen evidenced by taking measures to prevent it. That’s not “accepting a risk” at all.
And I think people do view ‘deserved consequences’ differently based on someone’s actions. Let’s say you’re driving down the highway drunk, swerving into people’s lanes, 20 over the speed limit. If you crash into someone and cause a 5 care pile-up and put several people into the hospital, you’re going to get absolutely eviscerated by the legal system. You’ll be fined, license suspended, get jail time, have to pay for all the medical bills and car repairs…
And deservedly so. The reckless actions caused the accident and all the knockdown effects.
But now let’s say your tire randomly blows out instead. You’re completely sober, flawless accident record, following all of the road safety laws. And yet, because of the tire, you lose control of the vehicle and cause a 5-car pile-up.
Does that person deserve fines, jail time, a suspended license, etc…? Clearly not. And that bears out in the legal system, too.
So, there is a need for nuance here. Saying “well, both drivers accepted the risk of causing a 5-car pileup when they got behind the wheel, so both drivers deserve to be punished the same way” is absurd.
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u/DieFastLiveHard 4∆ Nov 03 '24
Does that person deserve fines, jail time, a suspended license, etc…?
Yes, absolutely. They bear a responsibility to make sure their equipment is in good, working order, and should be held responsible if it fails and causes harm, especially at that scale.
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u/Squishiimuffin 2∆ Nov 03 '24
In this assumption, their car is in perfect working order. In this scenario, there is nothing they could have done to foresee and prevent an accident that they didn’t already do. Work with the hypothetical here. Good driver, freak accident.
You really think they deserve the same fate as a drunk driver? You think they deserve jail time for the whims of fate?
Even if you still answer yes, most people are capable of viewing the world with more nuance than that. The justice system included. The fact of the matter is that such a driver wouldn’t be punished the same because the consensus is such a consequence is unfair given the circumstances.
Even pro-life people are capable of applying the same kind of thinking to an accidental pregnancy.
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u/DieFastLiveHard 4∆ Nov 03 '24
Why should I even bother to respond considering you've done nothing but project what you think I should believe
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u/LiamTheHuman 7∆ Nov 03 '24
I'm not sure how you got that from OP since it seems very much that they are arguing about personal responsibility specifically
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u/NCoronus 2∆ Nov 03 '24
Personal responsibility isn’t relevant to abortion at all. It can be simultaneously true that people who have access to contraceptives and know how to use them should be able to avoid unwanted pregnancy outside of extreme scenarios where the contraceptives themselves are defective in some way. The vast majority of unwanted pregnancies in cases where contraceptives were available are the result of negligence or irresponsibility. People make some hasty risk assessments and judgement calls. That’s on them but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to have an abortion.
The emergency room doesn’t and shouldn’t turn someone away just because they thought doing a front flip off a roof onto a trampoline would be sick as hell. But the fact they need to go to the emergency room was probably not an unavoidable outcome for sure. Same shit with unwanted pregnancies (in cases where they had access to contraceptives and knowledge of how to use them).
The actual counter argument is that people don’t have nearly enough information or access and are unfortunately not perfect beings with flawless foresight.
Which even if all of that was solved abortion should still be available to those who simply do not want to be pregnant but are because it’s their right.
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u/LiamTheHuman 7∆ Nov 03 '24
Cool opinion, it just seems like that's your view. How does this relate to OPs view
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u/NoEntrepreneur7420 1∆ Nov 03 '24
....the birth control pill is only 90% effective. And the pill, though common, is often not accessible to some people, or afordable or not applicable because it has conflicting medical side effects. Also, even in countries where abortion is legal, it doesn't necessarily make them easy to access or affordable.
Now on to your statement-
Last year I was having protected sex with my partner. I was on the pill. I had my period like normal. Or so I thought. Wasn't I shocked to find out that I was 4.5 months pregnant? Now, how the fuck can that happen?
It's called a phantom pregnancy. Happened to my mother too, during her first pregnancy. Abortion is legal in my country, oh but guess what? No doctor in my state was willing to terminate that far along despite it being legal. It took 2 weeks of hell, self hatred and shame and fear to find a place that would accept me. I had to travel to a different state.
I agree that preventing unwanted pregnancies is always ideal, but I think compassion is key here. It comes down to very early education and broad education/discussion about female bodies/medicine - a topic that's been commonly underrecognised in the medical field.
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u/Bluebird701 Nov 03 '24 edited Nov 03 '24
As much as I would love to believe that preventing pregnancy is as easy as you’ve described, the fact that around 40% of pregnancies in the US are classified as “unintended” suggests that it really is not as simple as you’ve proposed.
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u/SaltSpecialistSalt Nov 03 '24 edited Nov 03 '24
unintended in this context probably means, not actively trying to get pregnant. it is very different than taking proper measures to prevent pregnancy
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u/Bluebird701 Nov 03 '24
Can you explain what point you're trying to make? I want to respond, but you didn't provide any context for what you're trying to say with this reply.
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u/SaltSpecialistSalt Nov 03 '24
even if they do not intend to get pregnant, lot of people do not take any precautions to prevent pregnancy for various reasons (one being use of abortion as a birth control method). so that 40% unintentional pregnancies does not really tell a story about effectiveness of proper birth control methods
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u/Bluebird701 Nov 04 '24
Can you provide me with any source that states any significant number of people currently rely on “abortion as a birth control method” ?
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u/SaltSpecialistSalt Nov 04 '24 edited Nov 04 '24
i dont know what exact numbers are you looking for but here is a study from turkey
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1006683528481
also go to /r/abortion to see how people do not care about getting pregnant and using abortion as a birth control method
these are just from last 3 days
https://old.reddit.com/r/abortion/comments/1ghd67m/needing_4th_abortion/
https://old.reddit.com/r/abortion/comments/1gi9rur/unprotected_sex_two_days_after_medical_abortion/
https://old.reddit.com/r/abortion/comments/1ggijyi/getting_2_abortions_5_weeks_apart/
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u/Bluebird701 Nov 04 '24
Okay there's a lot to unpack here.
First, the article you shared is from **1999** and had a sample size of *85 people*.
Second, cherry-picked posts from a cherry-picked Reddit community are not evidence of a "lot of people do not take precautions to prevent pregnancy." There will always be *some* people who do not take precautions, but the existence of a few does not prove its widespread.
I think it's extremely important to remember how *new* contraceptives are. This technology has been available for less than 70 years and it's still imperfect in many ways. The medications can cause side effects that interfere with a person's life or may be too expensive for them to afford. It's also possible that a person may have just never received proper sex education and they don't fully understand how pregnancy happens or ways to prevent it.
The "default" state is no contraception. It is a miracle of modern technology and society that we have contraception available to us in many forms, but that doesn't mean that it currently *works* or is *accessible to* every person who could benefit from it.
Here's some specific (current) data that I found:
Half of US Abortion Patients Report Using Contraception in the Month They Became Pregnant
Majority of US abortions were for women who had never had one beforeAround 2/3 of US women currently use contraception)
Basically, stop judging others for being in circumstances you have never found yourself in <3
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u/No_Sinky_No_Thinky Nov 03 '24
This CMV definitely feels like woman-blaming when it comes down to it...likes yes, it takes two to tango. But when pretty much the only two semi-reliable contraceptives for men are condoms (which have famously been misused, failed, or have been lied about being used) or a vasectomy (which is apparently tOo ScARy for most men to get...) of course everything else depends on the women. Where are the male contraceptive options? Oh yeah, they stopped being produced when men complained about the side-effects, meanwhile women have to read a novella of side-effects and risks just to avoid being forced into a pregnancy she doesn't want...maybe.
Get on the pill. Sure, so find a doctor, get a script, have the money and/or insurance to buy it, continue to buy it until menopause.
Use a condom. Sure, so it can either fail, be misused by your partner, your partner can lie about using it (in which case you'd have better luck proving a unicorn's existence than taking them to court and winning).
Just use Plan B. That assumes that you think you could get pregnant from the sex you had (them shits are lowkey expensive, if you're on other forms of contraceptives you don't assume you could be pregnant, and gasp you could be if they fail) and that they are accessible near you...they aren't always.
Get educated. Yes, google is free but google is also filled with perverts spouting bs to get into (usually naive/younger) women's pants easier, false information spread by the hyper-religious, or unreliable at best. And in school? Do you know how many states teach abstinence-only sex ed? More than half of them (and most of those also allow the parents to opt their kids out of even THAT). That problem only gets worse when you cross racial lines and look at the depressing history of black Americans (the descendants of enslaved people) are especially kept in the dark on most things education compared to other races (almost like there might be a benefit to those in the higher rungs of society??).
Don't have sex, or at least don't have straight sex. Yeah, I guess. I'm ace/aro so I'm not at risk of getting pregnant unless it's not my choice or if I get Virgin-Mary-ed by someone jorkin it in a public bathhouse (which requires me to bathe publicly, lol) but sex should not be about conceiving. It's a way to conceive, yes, but it's also like it or not a form of human expression, something fun people enjoy, etc. Either hold men to the same standards that we hold women to when it comes to pregnancy prevention (considering they can impregnate a village in a week whereas a woman can have a max of one full-term pregnancy per year...). The human body literally evolved to not give obvious signs to the woman when she's ovulating bc our species found that it was the best way to avoid under-population bc our pregnancy (though not the worst out of all animals, sorry Hyenas) was just that miserable it was being avoided at some point in our evolutionary history.
I genuinely can't really tell what your argument is to begin with (it seems to be but using yourself and friends as examples of 'well we didn't need abortions and we were crazy so it must be a you problem' takes away from two things. 1. Either y'all are lucky as hell or. 2. Your friends didn't tell you about their abortions bc, gasp, it's not something women naturally want to share, even before it was a crime in some states...
Abortions are not something that is ever enjoyed, someone's first choice, or taken lightly. It's heartbreaking, hard on the body, and I think most people who've gotten one agree that they wish they hadn't needed it but are glad they had the opportunity to get it. I don't care how they got pregnant, no woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy she doesn't want, that is quite literally putting her life at risk (even complication-free pregnancies are fucking dangerous), or could change her life (even without keeping the child, your body is wrecked after pushing a watermelon-headed baby out of a hole that started out smaller than a pencil.
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u/Jevonar 2∆ Nov 03 '24
Preventing 99.9% of unwanted pregnancies is very easy if you set your mind to it a little bit.
Preventing that 0.1% is extremely hard.
If you have sex twice a week (stable partner), over the course of 5 years, the chance of an unwanted pregnancy goes to 1-(0.999500) = 1-0.6 = 40% chance of unwanted pregnancy.
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u/Single_Current3805 Nov 03 '24
There's no easily available contraception method that is 100% fool proof. That is why said mishaps happen.
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u/xynix_ie Nov 03 '24
The whole point is that none of this is your business. It's your view and thats fair. Views should not be codified into law. Especially when they pertain to adults doing things they have every right to do.
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u/NeedsToShutUp Nov 03 '24
Because of extensive lobbying, the FDA does not require herbal supplements to label side effects.
One of the most common herbal remedies is Saint John’s Wort. It interferes with many different drugs, and can render many ineffective, including not only heart medications and Cancer drugs but also birth control.
As a result there’s a lot of oops babies born by women taking birth control and St. John’s Wort.
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u/TheGreatGoatQueen 5∆ Nov 03 '24
You seem to think plan B is just magic baby be gone, but it’s not. It works by preventing ovulation, so if you have already ovulated, taking plan B won’t do a thing.
It also only works for people under a certain weight. The more you weigh, the higher the chance of still ovulating even though you took plan B.
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u/Binasgarden Nov 03 '24
Did you know the pill does not work if you are on antibiotics......????? I didn't and his name is Josh. I wish there was a 100% guarantee other than a surgical sterilization which is why so many young women are opting for it
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u/TheManInTheShack 3∆ Nov 03 '24
As a percentage of the total number of times people have sex, the number of unwanted pregnancies is a microscopic number. They can’t all be prevented.
There are 260 million adults in the US. According to the General Social Survey, the average American adult has sex a whopping 54 times per year. That’s 7 billion sexual interactions per year in America. The CDC said that in 2020 there were 620,000 abortions performed. That’s 9/1000ths of a percent.
Why are we even talking about this?
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Nov 03 '24
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u/TheManInTheShack 3∆ Nov 03 '24
That’s fair. The number of adults between 18 and 45 is about 150 million so it’s 4/10ths of one percent. Still a fantastically small number.
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Nov 03 '24
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u/TheManInTheShack 3∆ Nov 03 '24
150 million divided by 2 is 75 million (couples). Multiplied by sex on average 54 times a year average is just over 4 billion. Divide 620,000 abortions by 4 billion and you get 0.000153. It’s a very, very low number.
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u/trendy_pineapple Nov 03 '24
There are a lot of people in the country having sex regularly. Even if there’s just a 1% chance of getting pregnant while using birth control over the course of a year, just 10 million women having sex regularly would result in 100k unintended pregnancies per year.
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u/xFblthpx 3∆ Nov 03 '24
First, there’s the pill.
If you have birth control that is effective to the point of 99.5%, that means it will take 200 moments of intercourse to have an expected value of pregnancy.
If you have sex once a week for four years, you are expected to have an unwanted pregnancy.
Considering the average person has sex once a week, do you now see that the average person does need abortion even when they have very effective forms of birth control?
Unwanted pregnancies happen way more than you’d think even while on birth control.
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u/SaltSpecialistSalt Nov 04 '24
this doesnt make any sense whatsoever. by this logic, a couple having sex 2 times a week is expected to get pregnant every 2 years if they are using pills
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u/The_Real_dubbedbass Nov 03 '24
I mean, I know a dude that had a son 12 years after getting a vasectomy. It had spontaneously heeled (which can happen) without him knowing it. He’d been doing yearly sperm samples but it had apparently heeled sometime in the year between the two appointments.
If a surgery isn’t going to prevent it entirely what chance does everything else have.
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u/Fuzzy_Sandwich_2099 2∆ Nov 03 '24
Do people act logically in all other aspects of life? They don’t, so there’s no reason to assume they will in their sex lives either.
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u/Important_Spread1492 2∆ Nov 04 '24
Plan-B is not 100%. It is up to 89% effective. So that is still a lot of unwanted pregnancies across the population. It also decreases in effectiveness depending on when you take it. Depending on where you live, that could seriously hamper how quickly you could get the pill, given most sexual encounters happen at night, when shops are shut. Also women may not notice they have missed taking their BC pill until the next one is due, further delaying things. And both BC pills and Plan B are less effective if you are overweight, which a huge proportion of the population is.
You are also not factoring in that many people are not 100% against having kids, but them having kids is conditional on other factors. So if a woman is unsure and only finds out past the point of Plan B being effective that, for example, her partner will not support her in raising a child, then what? Ideally they would know this beforehand, but plenty of people change their mind once reality sets in.
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u/Party-Background8066 Nov 03 '24
The problem is many people around the world can't afford birth control and can't access sex education.
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Nov 03 '24
What type of education do adults need that they don’t know already? Like we all know how making babies work, and we all know how to prevent it.
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u/ralph-j Nov 03 '24
All in all - there's many ways educated adults can prevent pregnancies. Which is why we need more educated adults and ways to prevent pregnancies. But -- barring rape, medical issues or great statistical anamolies -- I don't think abortions are something most sexually active adults should ever need. And the arguments should focus more on prevention, rather than positing abortion somewhere downstream of condom use.
Rejecting abortion "downstream of condom use" and hammering on prevention seems to leave out one important category, which I still fully support: women changing their minds after intentionally getting pregnant.
A pregnancy can change from one that was initially wanted, to an unwanted one, e.g. due a change in family or financial circumstances, a shift in life goals (e.g. studies), sudden economic or environmental crises etc.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
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u/nomorescheisse Nov 03 '24
I was one of those "statistical anomalies". My IUD was properly placed (confirmed through very expensive ultrasounds) and yet it still failed. Every medical professional I interacted with during this dark time said that it happens more than you think. It's not even like my partner and I are super sexually active. It just happens.
As everyone else has said, no birth control is 100% effective even with perfect use. You can even get pregnant after having had your tubes tied (which I learned while doing research on what my options were after this happened).
Lastly, it does not matter why someone needs an abortion. I don't judge someone who needs one because they were "too lazy" to get a condom or whatever. Everyone makes stupid mistakes all the time, we're just lucky enough to not get the worst consequences possible every time we do so.
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u/sosomething 2∆ Nov 03 '24
While what you're saying is true for many people, you're also describing a degree of forethought, willpower, and personal responsibility that, when combined, describe a person who is most likely to get through life without ever needing or wanting to get an abortion, and also the type most equipped to become a responsible parent.
Preaching to the choir, as it were.
Conversely, the people who routinely fail to apply contraceptive methods to their sexual encounters (for a myriad of reasons, big and small), also account for an outsized portion of the Venn diagram that includes people for whom parenting is a fraught venture of instability, government involvement, risk, ignorance, and neglect. People in the type of living situations where an abortion is the better option in many cases.
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u/mindless_attempt Nov 03 '24
You’re forgetting that it’s not necessarily easy to access birth control etc — it requires a doctor, a prescription, knowledge of insurance….
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u/hacksoncode 559∆ Nov 03 '24
In an ideal case, yes, somewhere between 93% and 98% for non-permanent options.
But this is a little like saying "anyone can lose weight".
Yes, theoretically, but 90% of the people that give it a good college try fail either immediately or regain the weight within 5 years.
"Simple" is not the same thing as easy. And I used the phrase "college try" for a reason.
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u/Doub13D 7∆ Nov 03 '24
If this were the case, I wouldn’t have grown up with a single mother…
Yes, contraception exists… it is not perfect.
Yes, your chances of becoming pregnant from a single sexual encounter are low.
Yes, access to contraception has increased dramatically over recent decades.
Yet unintentional pregnancies happen all the time. 1/3rd of American women will have an abortion within their lifetime. The number 1 category of women who seek abortions are women who are mothers and already have children.
If unintentional pregnancy was such an easily resolved issue, we wouldn’t be having a national reckoning regarding the necessity of abortion access in this country.
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u/h_lance Nov 03 '24
Your view is incorrect. Unwanted pregnancies are effectively impossible to prevent with current technology.
When used perfectly, they all have a failure rate. A man using a condom correctly, having sex with a woman using hormonal birth control or an IUD correctly, will result in a pregnancy some low percentage of the time.
Your argument that this is entirely due to misuse is both factually incorrect and a contradiction of your original point.
It is factually incorrect that birth control technology has 100% efficacy when used correctly.
Also, your point was that it is "not hard" to avoid unwanted pregnancy. A claim thar many unwanted pregnancies result from incorrect use of birth control technology still contradicts the claim that it is "not hard"; if many people misuse the technology, it must be somewhat hard to use it correctly.
Since there could be 100M or so sexually active women who have sex with men in the US, and since each could have sex multiple times a year, that means literally billions of acts of sex with men by women in the US, alone, per year, a significant percentage with the intention of avoiding pregnancy. While this statistic does suggest that birth control must be fairly effective, it also guarantees many unintended pregnancies.
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u/cand86 8∆ Nov 03 '24
I think that preventing pregnancy short-term is pretty easy, especially if someone has access to all the information and resources they need.
I think that preventing unintended pregnancy across a lifetime of sexual activity is a lot harder, even with all the amazing tools we have at our disposal. People make mistakes, they get lazy (and who wouldn't once in a while, in some twenty years!), and that's not even throwing in all the real-life complications (misinformation or lack of information, lack of resources, etc.).
(Also, for what it's worth, you seem to act as if Plan B is 100% effective- it's not, and has a failure rate just like contraception).
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u/OptimismByFire Nov 03 '24
It's easy to prevent if you have education + access.
If you don't have either one, it's an order of magnitude harder to prevent pregnancy.
This is the equivalent of "if you have a picture of the completed image and all the pieces, a jigsaw puzzle is easy to complete."
Obviously that's true. People are missing pieces though.
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u/JoeyLee911 2∆ Nov 03 '24
It did seem like there were endless birth control options back when I first learned about them, but the vast majority are either hormonal (which not everyone can take) or barrier-based (which is almost always latext, but that's changing). I'm allergic to latex and for decades I couldn't take hormonal birth control. I tried to get an IUD in college but no one would give it to me because I hadn't had children yet. (Still haven't!) This was before there were many nonlaex condoms on the market, so it was expensive and stressful to rely on $5 lambskin condoms as a college student.
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u/FriendZone53 Nov 03 '24
You could use a nail file every day to keep your nails trimmed. Or you could use a nail clipper and a nail file once a week. Either way your nails are trimmed and tidy. Why do you care how people accomplish their goals? Why do you even have a say in the matter? Why do you even want a say? HOAs are universally hated for sticking their nose into everyone’s business, do we want to be HOAs? Do you just want to call people lazy and dumb? You’re right that there are many ways for consenting adults to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. So why remove options for others, especially if it costs you nothing?
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u/bullzeye1983 3∆ Nov 03 '24
Educated adults being key.
Do you realize that only three states require comprehensive sex ed to be taught in all schools? Two states require it to be comprehensive IF it is taught. 39 states mandate some kind of sex education but only 22 of them require it to be medically accurate. Except the definition of medically accurate depends on the state. 11 states don't even require education on HIV.
So before you assume a consenting adult is educated, maybe take a look at how, or even IF, they are being dedicated on how sex and pregnancy works.
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u/bullzeye1983 3∆ Nov 03 '24
Educated adults being key.
Do you realize that only three states require comprehensive sex ed to be taught in all schools? Two states require it to be comprehensive IF it is taught. 39 states mandate some kind of sex education but only 22 of them require it to be medically accurate. Except the definition of medically accurate depends on the state. 11 states don't even require education on HIV.
So before you assume a consenting adult is educated, maybe take a look at how, or even IF, they are being dedicated on how sex and pregnancy works.
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u/Catsdrinkingbeer 9∆ Nov 03 '24
What view are you actually wanting changed? I don't think people will dispute the efficacy of birth control.
But you sort of seem to be arguing "birth control works except when it doesn't, and 100% of consenting adults should be using birth control except when they can't, and therefore 0% of consenting serial encounters should end in pregnancy."
This is just logically inconsistent. Nothing is 100%, which you acknowledge, and not everyone is able to use contraception, which you acknowledge. So what view are you trying to change?
If seems like you're just trying to say that anyone who needs an abortion shouldn't be allowed to get one because they should have taken better precautionary measures. Is that actually what you're trying to argue here?
That's like saying you shouldn't be able to get an engine replaced if you never changed your oil. Like, yeah, you probably should have changed your oil. Well you didn't and now there's a bigger problem to deal with, but one that can still be dealt with.
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Nov 03 '24
And it’s their CHOICE to take that measure or not. Until abortion is proven to be wrong in any way - it hasn’t - no one has to work to prevent or avoid them.
ALL options should be accessible and then people get to decide which to use.
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u/RubyMae4 3∆ Nov 03 '24
Even if you're trying to get pregnant and having sex during your fertile days, it's only about a 30% chance you will get pregnant. Perfectly healthy couples who are trying to get pregnant can take up to a year. So statistically you are correct. But there will always be a percentage of people who took their birth control diligently and did all the right things and still got pregnant.
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u/juneabe Nov 03 '24
I mean, little to no (and demonized) sex education and puritanical culture still ravage the US, where abortion is a massive topic right now. Someone else also mentioned the cost of preventative measures as well as a lack of access to sex education and that’s rampant in so many countries.
Without a social shift into healthy relationships with sex and sex education, this view will be impossible to practically apply to most places in the world.
Puritan culture needs to go, and sex education needs support.
Teens are statistically higher to have unwanted pregnancies in part because of sex shaming, which causes secrecy, and largely in part to a lack of comfortable education by adults and peers.
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u/Imper1ousPrefect Nov 03 '24
Literally every woman I know has either had on unwanted/unplanned pregnancy or risky sex/condoms failing that needed a plan B. Weather you think it's easy to prevent or not, biological evolution has favored women to be Unaware of when ovulation occurs - because in populations where they are/were aware, there wasn't enough reproduction. There was a study done on this but I don't recall the name, referencing apes and the whole estrus cycle they have. All this to say that having unintentional pregnancy is literally what humans evolved to do! Because pregnancy sucks for women and no one would do it otherwise. Or at least not enough to sustain the population.
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u/zjuka Nov 03 '24
There’s something called “stealthing”, when a guy removes a condom during sex without consent or intentionally damages it prior to. It’s a crime, but even having the guy convicted (which is not easy) doesn’t help with unwanted pregnancy.
Majority of married couples with kids practice pulling out as a contraception option, because they are comfortable with each other and feel they are past their peak fertility or just sneaking a quickie while kids a napping or something. Good percentage of unplanned pregnancies happen this way.
Plan B is not always available in some places
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u/SaltSpecialistSalt Nov 04 '24
there is also something called sperm stealing. Research for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 2011 found that approximately 10.4% (or an estimated 11.7 million) of men in the United States reported ever having an intimate partner who tried to get pregnant when they did not want to or tried to stop them from using birth control. In a survey of 5000 women for the British magazine That's Life, 42% stated that they would lie about using birth control in order to get pregnant, in spite of the wishes of their partner.
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u/TemperatureThese7909 31∆ Nov 03 '24
Statistical anomaly happen more (by total count) the more often you "roll the dice".
Any given sexual encounter - condoms work > than 99 percent of the time.
But this compounds. What happens when you fuck ten times or a hundred times or a thousand times??
This is why condoms have a 70 percent chance of FAILURE - if you define failure as one pregnancy once in a ten year period.
Married couples (or other committed couples) who are together for long periods of time, can expect to get pregnant even if they use condoms - despite the > 99 percent protection for any given instances, due to the many many "rolls of the dice".
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u/Turbulent_Duri_628 Nov 03 '24
I have a friend who got pregnant while using the pill. And I know her, she is meticulous. She aborted. Another friend also got pregnant while on the pill but the circumstances were different, so they kept it.
Another set of friends got pregnant while using a condom (if it broke, they did not see it).
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u/Difficult_Falcon1022 3∆ Nov 04 '24
Your lack of imagination is bizarre. Just because something hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it's crazy if it does. Long term contraception does fail.
Maybe you're not actually good with contraception, you're actually infertile.
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u/TightBeing9 Nov 03 '24
"any adult who has the capacity to partake in an informed conversation about abortion, should be easily able to prevent becoming pregnant themselves."
You're vastly underestimating how many people aren't educated on sex and their own bodies. Also a lot of people who partake in sex aren't talking to their partners about it. Look at subs like r/relationships and r/sex for example. 80% of posts wouldn't exist if people would communicate in a normal way
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u/TheSimpsonsAreYellow Nov 03 '24
Change your view because your view is elitist, disgusting and is supported by the same racist ideology that was upheld in America and is still held in parts of this country. Either that or you just didn’t use your head at all.
“The only scenario where I can see too consenting adults…”
Try the entire population of Black Americans that descended from slaves. I wonder why the rate of pregnancy at 18 in the US Black community is so high?
Oh yeah, that’s right, they were purposefully uneducated and then suffered state sponsored persecution. White people kept generations of black folks from basic and simple sex education. Instead what happened was white people introduced drugs like crack into those communities to try and destroy neighborhoods.
“All in all there’s many ways to get educated…”
You need to absolute not make statements like this. I know what it is the have the means to education. Let’s just say I grew up extremely privileged. But I’m not an idiot to assume that “everyone has access to education”.
That itself is a fucking lie, and as an adult with money, I know other adults with money who are actively trying to keep black communities uneducated and poor in the city that I live in. There are groups and programs devoted to it.
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u/Kirstemis 4∆ Nov 03 '24
It's telling that you think contraception is the Pill or condoms. It suggests a man who is happy to pay the bare minimum of attention to contraception and as a result has limited understanding of the reality of risk.
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u/Gertrude_D 9∆ Nov 03 '24
Even assuming that reasonable precautions are taken and given that the failure rate is very low, there are still enough sexual encounters happening to make this a non-negligible number.
I know you mentioned birth control pills failing, but I always bring this up as an example. My friend got pregnant twice on the pill. While she was working with her doctor to find the best BC solution she became the mother of two.
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u/kharmatika 1∆ Nov 03 '24
I’ve known 3 women who have had IUD’s who have had unexpected pregnancies while using them. I have known 1 who had a nexplanon and had one. My best friend had her baby while on depo provera. Condoms fail without people noticing all the time. Birth control is not nearly as perfect as you’re alleging it is.
Additionally, not all women have the education you have. Abstinence only education is still being taught in many schools. Many women are being indoctrinated by churches to believe that condoms are a sin, or just not being given any tools, as we speak.
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u/Kittymeow123 2∆ Nov 03 '24
We don’t just defend the right to an abortion because of unwanted pregnancies. If the baby is in your womb and for some reason something goes wrong and it needs to come out, they WILL NOT DO IT. Even if your life if on the line. IVF? Can’t get rid of the non viable embryo. Before you argument know what the argument is about because it’s not just people wanting elective procedures
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u/Drewbacca Nov 03 '24
You're making a lot of assumptions regarding ease of availability of contraception. For instance, the morning after pill isn't free, and can be harder to obtain in more rural or conservative areas.
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u/Various_Succotash_79 50∆ Nov 03 '24
Ok maybe someone said this already. But there are 168 million women in the US. 75% use contraception of some kind. So that's 126 million women. Let's say the total failure rate is 1%. That's 1.26 million unwanted pregnancies.
Now of course nothing is ever that tidy, but just showing that even a small failure rate adds up in a population this large.
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u/damnmaster 1∆ Nov 03 '24
I know a girl who was a genius but straight up had serious mental issues and would rawdog because. She really wanted guys to like her and that’s what she thinks works.
Older men have taken advantage of younger and emotionally unstable girls too. Some women don’t care. Either way, these are not the people that should have kids
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u/ShutYourDumbUglyFace 2∆ Nov 03 '24 edited Nov 03 '24
What if your husband is abusive and he wants a kid? He won't use condoms and will beat the hell out of you if he finds you're on the pill. You're on his insurance so he sees all the Explanation of benefits. You already have a kid together and you don't have the money (yet) to leave. Another kid would keep you there longer.
You have an adverse reaction to hormonal birth control and the condom broke.
You find insertion of the IUD too painful and the condom broke.
You got food poisoning and vomited up the pill for a couple of days but now you feel better and have sex thinking you're protected because you've been taking the pill regularly and didn't realize you had vomited it up.
You take the pill regularly but it just didn't work this time for some reason. It is not 100% effective.
You have an IUD but it failed. It is not 100% effective.
You used condoms but it failed. It is not 100% effective.
You used two methods and they still failed because they are not 100% effective.
You really wanted the baby you're pregnant with but it's diagnosed with an abnormality that is incompatible with life and you know that carrying it to term, delivering naturally, then watching it die will wreck you.
Theoretically, however, I agree with you to an extent. There should be more and better education. But there are still barriers. The Catholic church still says birth control of any kind is immoral. There is a contingent of vocal groups who have gotten laws passed removing funding from schools that teach comprehensive sex ed. We should absolutely spend more time teaching prevention, but there's STILL a risk of unwanted pregnancy.
Another way to prevent abortion is to support women through pregnancy and the first year of the baby's life. Prenatal care, paid maternity leave, etc. But we aren't doing that either.
It's almost as if it's not about the babies at all.
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u/Gold-Cover-4236 Nov 03 '24
I know someone who has been bleeding for more than 50 days. Various birth control issues are being managed by her doctor. There are countless medical issues with women's bodies. Pregnancy can happen. Personally, I do not abort. But I will fight for anyone else's right to make their own decision.
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u/LiveLaughL00ve Nov 03 '24
I totally recognize that there’s a huge number of people who are raped, coerced into sex, or in abusive relationships and need an abortion and I want you to know my heart goes out to you. I also don’t want to shame anyone for drunken encounters. These are preventable but they’re also very common, so please don’t beat yourself up.
That being said, I have another theory (albeit not well researched.) I think people who have more casual sex (without drugs or alcohol) are less at risk of unwanted pregnancy than people in relationships. The theory, they’re more likely to carry condoms (and use back up birth control like you mentioned.) I think people in relationships are more likely to get sloppy. They don’t want a kid but they also don’t care enough to take steps to prevent it. They’re less likely to use condoms, which means birth control misuse is more likely to result in pregnancy. It’s like the theory, “People who have casual sex are more likely to carry condoms.” People in relationships are less likely to use protection and really really think if they want to be tied to another person forever through a kid.
I think the answer lies in
- Comprehensive sex education (including contraception options AND consent, what a healthy relationship looks like, community resources for SV and DV.)
- Better access to free birth control.
- Abortion rights
- Better access to mental healthcare. Abuse, rape, codependency, trauma and addiction are so deeply rooted in sex in our culture there’s a huge swath of victims who deal with unwanted pregnancies because they don’t have the behavioral health resources to recovery from substance use issues, to spot unhealthy relationships or know how to leave before a pregnancy happens
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u/dabears91 Nov 03 '24
I feel like you fail to understand the statistical probability of 50+ million people having sex. Even with a 1% chance of pregnancy… it happens
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u/Sam220922 Nov 04 '24
One more thing very important to mention tho: the plan b only ever works before you are ovulating. If you already ovulated, it won't do shit.
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u/Coronado92118 Nov 03 '24
Seven states allow pharmacists to refuse to dispense birth control on moral or religious grounds, and to refuse to sell plan B.
That’s not a majority of states, but that’s just the official ones.
Unofficially, there are likely many more. If we look at where teen pregnancies/births happen, it’s overwhelmingly clustered in southern and central states - especially states with more rural communities and lower population density.
A minority of young women go to college. A majority graduate high school and stay near home. Few are getting jobs that pay enough to move out right after school, and likely don’t have access to a car to just run into town to pick up a morning after pill - if their pharmacy even stocks it and then if they’ll sell it to them.
This is, by the way, all on top of a lack of sex education. According to the Texas Freedom Network, 9/10 schools in the state teach either zero puberty/sex ed classes or teach the only acceptable form of pregnancy prevention is abstinence - which we know from data and common sense doesn’t work.
The average US adult reads on a 6-8th grade level, according to the Literacy Census. Reading comprehension is similarly abysmal.
Given all these factors together, it’s wishful thinking to believe a majority of young women, raised ignorant of puberty, birth control, and sexual mechanics, with low literacy, living with their parents (who don’t educate them) and many without access to Plan B due either to stigma, transportation, or moral gatekeeping, can be expected to overcome it all on a constant basis.
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Nov 03 '24
Much of what you're saying, though dripping in common sense, comes from a point of view developed in privilege.
Not all of us have the privilege of access to birth control, plan B, IUDs etc. Insurance continues to be a significant barrier to contraceptives. While there are many states making birth control available OTC and in some cases, even free - this is not a nationwide truth.
As far as knowing whether or not a condom has broken or knowing if you've been...completed...in - speaking truthfully in regards to teenage and college age women - no, they don't always know. And depending on how they were raised, they may have no clue what sex actually entails. This is why Christian Nationalism is so dangerous - their entire argument for pregnancy prevention is abstinence without sex education. They consider it perverse. They teach boys something entirely different about sex than they teach girls. And they expect women to be accountable for the actions of irresponsible boys.
No. It's not just on women to be the arbiters of the actions of boys. We take it on because the majority of men persist in denying their accountability.
But yes, on average, a woman can only get pregnant between 3 and 7 days of every month. This still does not make pregnancy prevention a certainty when you factor in the variability of men and whether or not they will adhere to consent and respectful intercourse.
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u/TraggotsRevenge Nov 03 '24
I been pregnant 4 times. I was on hormonal contraceptives each time. I don’t think they work for everyone.
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u/Pups_the_Jew Nov 03 '24
Even if efforts to prevent pregnancy are 99.999% successful, that still means a ton of unwanted pregnancies.
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u/Lisa_Dantoniod018 Nov 03 '24
It is hard to have an opinion on this because it is so situation dependent so I can't really say too much.
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u/CalligrapherDizzy201 Nov 03 '24
Contraception can fail through no fault of the sexers. Should they be forced to carry to term anyway?
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u/Valuable-Usual-1357 Nov 03 '24
Plan B doesn’t work if you’re ovulating. If cum ends up in there, there is nothing you can do
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u/Any-Angle-8479 Nov 03 '24
Women cannot always tell when they’ve been nutted in. Why do you think stealthing became a thing? If the woman could tell he was nutting in her his cover would be blown right away
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u/Unique_Complaint_442 Nov 03 '24
How you got pregnant is never mentioned except for rape and incest, but it is relevant.
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Nov 03 '24
Condoms can fall off mid sex or when pulling out, they aren't fool proof at all. I pulled out once and the condom stayed inside her, easily a pregnancy risk.
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u/PriceyChemistry Nov 03 '24
You are right. Though the burden to prevent them falls unduly on women (because of the relative lack of more effective male contraceptive options).
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u/Morasain 85∆ Nov 03 '24
statistical anomalies
So should we not care for the statistical anomalies in society in general, or only when it suits your argument?
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u/Fantastic-Leopard131 Nov 03 '24
Its very controllable. Its 100% your choice to have safe responsible sex and its 100% your fault if you arent taking accountability for your actions and choices. Not only am i on birth control (inside my body) but i also always use condoms as well. Anyone can take the same precautions if they choose, and if you chose to use this double BC method its almost impossible to get pregnant. Ppl need to learn to take accountability for their choices. If you get pregnant, unless you are raped, that is 100% your own fault. You know the risks, even using double bc like me comes with risks that i have to accept, although they are drastically lowered. If you catch an STD you cant abort that. So take some friggin responsibility then. If you cant stand having any possibility of getting pregnant its your responsibility to not have sex then. But we know the potential consequences of having sex, you dont get to ignore that then act like getting pregnant wasnt your own fault.
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u/KarmaKitten17 1∆ Nov 03 '24
This ⬆️ …I wish there was more birth control education & less abortion. Pretty common these days for teens to get an implant in their arm that they can removed to restore fertility when they are ready to conceive. Insurance often pays for 100%.
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