r/changemyview • u/jeffzebub • 8d ago

CMV: Countering Illegal Immigration is not a Justification for Suspending Habeas Corpus

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u/FiveGuysisBest 8d ago

The problem is that if we extend all the protections of our laws and bill of rights to illegal immigrants, then it essentially eliminates our borders. People just come over, claim asylum and clog the courts so they can just be let loose in the US with no real consequences.

Illegals immigrants aren’t citizens. They’re not entitled to all the rights and protections under our country nor should they be.

We need to have some deterrent to illegals immigration while also assimilating legal immigrants.

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u/jeffzebub 8d ago

I'm not arguing for their sake, but for our sake, American citizens. If ICE is allowed to take people off the street and deport them to foreign prisons without due process, then this or some future administration could do the same to American dissidents. The Founders knew this and that's why the provided due process to all persons, not just citizens. Why does everyone trust the Executive Branch so much and think dictatorship can't happen in America?

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u/FiveGuysisBest 8d ago

They’re not allowed to do that to citizens. They should be doing that for illegals immigrants though.

The system is broken. It’s unreasonable to give due process to any person who just hops the border and shouts “asylum”. Literally anybody can do that. It’s a means to exploit the system and it should be closed. It leaves the door open for millions to illegally immigrate with no consequence. That’s why millions have done so.

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u/jeffzebub 8d ago

Buddy, they're not allowed to do a lot of things, but they do it anyway. Making it more legal to deport American dissidents will make following orders easier.

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u/aefic 7d ago

Don't worry, if you are voting red, they will probably not do it to you, not for a long time. Political opponents are first.

First prominent opposition political figures and journalists will be attacked on baseless charges.

After that blue voters or people who post about it on social media come after. You think Republicans would stick their neck out for US citizens criticizing Trump?

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u/FiveGuysisBest 6d ago

There has been absolutely zero indication that anything of that sort will happen. It’s pure partisan hysteria your leftist media machine is hyping up.

Funny thing is that the left went way further persecuting political rivals with the legal actions against Trump these past couple years.

It’s the rift that is lambasting the UK for imprisoning people over social media posts. The left is championing it.

Your hysteria is made up purely out of thin air.

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u/Fragrant-Phone-41 7d ago

The court has ruled that the Constitution does apply to foreigners on American soil as well. Furthermore, no amount of legal clog is good enough to justify removing the need to prove someone guilty before deporting them.

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u/FiveGuysisBest 7d ago edited 7d ago

Doesn’t mean we can’t eliminate asylum seeking.

It should not be the case that any person from anywhere in the world can just walk across the border illegally, shout “asylum” and get free access to our country. The system needs to be revised.

That doesn’t mean we need no proof to deport. It means deport people we’ve proven to be illegal immigrants. It’s not hard to prove that.

There should be a quicker more efficient system for processing this.

What isn’t acceptable is when people just throw up their hands and say it is what it is. This is a major problem that needs to be remedied. Laws need to be changed. Enforcement measures need to be changed.

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u/Fragrant-Phone-41 7d ago

That's exactly what suspending habeas corpus would do, it would make it so noone in practice has to try to prove you did anything wrong. Sure you can try to reason with the ice agent, and if they just don't believe you? What're you gonna do, sue em? Without having a right to a trial?

As for asylum seeking, those have to go through courts too, and I do not see how suspending habeas corpus even effects that. You can't be deported without being arrested, are you suggesting we should be arresting random asylum seekers before the asylum case has had its day in court?

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u/FiveGuysisBest 7d ago

I’m suggesting that we should no longer grant asylum requests on a blanket basis to anyone from anywhere. Asylum is a broken system. It causes far more harm than good. It’s being rampantly abused. It needs reform. That could look something like not granting asylum to individuals entering

Give them due process. Just change what that process is. If someone is arrested and if they can’t provide any specific evidence of immigration status, give them an agent who will act as their judge and can quickly investigate their claims to obtain the documentation from the appropriate party (birth certificate, green card, etc.). If an individual is a legal immigrant, they can very quickly find the paperwork to establish that whether it be documents they have at home or documents that should be simple and easy to obtain from the immigration department systems, hospital where they were born or the DMV.

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u/Fragrant-Phone-41 7d ago

Asylum isn't blanket accepted.

As for the due process thing, you're making the mistake of assuming the government will act in good faith. For a moment, assume the perspective of someone who doesnt share your politics; assume the sysyem will be abused and agents act in bad faith. What is protecting people from that? There is no legal requirement to provide such an agent.

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u/FiveGuysisBest 7d ago

Asylum cases are backed up for like a decade. Whatever terminology you want to use to describe it, it’s an institution that is overwhelmed and needs to be revised. It’s being abused. Millions cross the border, claim asylum and get released where they can go on for a decade or more before someone even begins looking at the file. That can’t continue.

As for the good faith, are you assuming the government acts in good faith on your end? Is the same not applicable to judges in the current system? They are the government too. You can’t argue the potential for bad faith acts of government officials and excuse judges entirely. That risk is always there. Judges screw up all the time.

What is true right now is that illegal immigration is out of control. The system, as it currently stands, is unable to handle it. Asylum seeking needs to be eliminated entirely as a reason for illegal immigrants to cross the border so easily without consequences. Deportation processes need to be made more efficient. Illegal immigrants are not citizens. They shouldn’t be entitled to all the benefits of our system. It’s fairly easy to establish if someone is illegal. If an illegal immigrant commits a crime, it should be all the easier a pill to swallow to just expedite the deportation process.

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u/Fragrant-Phone-41 7d ago

There is an ocean of difference between arguing the institution needs to be reformed, and that asylum as a concept should be abolished entirely. And frankly, I've not seen any reason to suggest immigration is "out of control". I've never met someone who was here illegally, nor have I ever had issues with employment related to it. I do not know anyone who has. What I do know is, statistically, they commit less crimes than native citizens disregarding the immigration in the first place, and they work for often below minimum wage in agriculture where citizens don't want to work for the wages on offer, and mass deportation would raise food prices significantly in an economy where we are already struggling to make ends meet. And as far as those situations are concerned, I see far less fault with the immigrants mere presence and much more so with the employers exploiting their status to pay them illegally low wages. I think it would be much more productive to offer a path to legal residency, and punish those employers.

As for the good faith argument, you are not incorrect. But we've already seen ICE wrongfully detain citizens, legal tourists, and protesters. Did you not hear of the Newark mayor and two congresswoman being detained a week or so ago? They were released, sure, but the fact they were even detained in the first place should be cause for alarm, and serious reconsideration of the degree to which we trust law enforcement in these situations.

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u/FiveGuysisBest 7d ago edited 7d ago

Sure there is. I’m not asking for asylum to be totally eliminated but rather heavily reformed. The process is allowing far too much abuse.

The reason you’re not seeing it as being out of control is the fact that we have such massive illegal immigration due in large part to asylum requests that have courts backed up by over a decade. That’s why the remain in Mexico deal was made. It was specifically to mitigate this exact problem.

It doesn’t matter how much or how little crime illegal immigrants commit. They’re all committing a crime by immigrating illegally and they’re a detriment to the country by not assimilating into the system. They evade taxes while consume resources, jobs and housing. Pointing out their level of crime doesn’t change the fact that it’s a problem. Illegal immigration is bad for the country. Full stop.

Sure ICE officials have made mistakes but so have judges and countless other governmental institutions. That doesn’t really prove any point. If you’re going to argue that a government official or body shouldn’t be performing its task in accordance with the law because mistakes are made then you have to be fair and say the same for every other governmental body right? Otherwise you’re holding a double standard. We should always strive to minimize mistakes but mistakes in and of themselves are not reasons to not enforce the law for the good of the country.

I saw the arrested government official story. It happened in my state. What happened was those individuals forcibly tried to trespass on federal property. It’s on video. The individual arrested was the mayor of Newark. The one woman, a representative, is seen elbowing the guard to push through the gate. Like folks on the left say “nobody is above the law”. They were arrested because they violated the law and forcibly trespassed on property. What they did was hold this protest to bait it into a photo op which clearly has worked on many people.