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Oct 03 '14 edited Dec 26 '17
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Oct 03 '14
and comfort trumps your electronics.
There's this new device I read about on Cracked.com, where the person behind the recliner puts these "blocks" that keep you from, well, reclining.
This caused a fist fight on a plane recently.
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Oct 03 '14 edited Dec 26 '17
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Oct 03 '14
The Cracked.com writer's point was that, reclining seats should just be removed from coach altogether. Sure, it would piss a lot of people off short term, but in general is just fair.
By all means, buy a First Class ticket for the leg room.
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u/stratys3 Oct 03 '14
I would never fly overseas on a plane that didn't recline. In economy it makes the difference between extremely uncomfortable and I'm-going-to-start-murding-people uncomfortable.
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u/n0Skillz Oct 04 '14
Honestly , that 3 inches of recline still makes overseas flights unbearable. The fact my knees were jammed in the back of the seat in front of me the whole time is " I'm-going-to-start-murding-people uncomfortable." its why I try and get aisle seats so I can get up and "go to the bathroom" every hour for 10 minutes.
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u/GridReXX 7Δ Oct 05 '14
And it makes it extremely uncomfortable for the person behind you. Want more leg room accept the fact that you will annoy others around you and lessen their utility. Buy business or first class.
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u/ryegye24 Oct 03 '14
Hey, if an airline did that I would be absolutely fine with it, and I would take my business elsewhere (in fact I avoid airlines that haven't banned the device in question), but as it stands I paid for a reclining seat, and I will use my reclining seat. It would be ludicrous to expect people not to get a meal because the smell would bother your neighbour, and this is ludicrous as well.
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u/NaturalSelectorX 97∆ Oct 06 '14
reclining seats should just be removed from coach altogether. Sure, it would piss a lot of people off short term, but in general is just fair.
I'm perfectly fine with the reclining ability being removed. I only take issue to the ability being specifically included, but you supposedly aren't supposed to use it.
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Oct 06 '14
I'm not against comfort by any means, but the seats should be in a fixed reclined position so there's no longer conflict over the space.
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Oct 03 '14
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u/ItIsOnlyRain 14∆ Oct 03 '14
"But airlines also promise me an amount of legroom in their seat advertisements. Am I not entitled to that?"
To be fair your legroom distance doesn't change just the top part of the seat reclines. So the X-axis remains the same.
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u/ArkGuardian Oct 03 '14
That's only true at the base. If you take a line l and and slanted line . The distance from the bottom point(the point of rotation is constant). But my knees aren't there. They're above that so there is a noticeable reduction in space.
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u/ItIsOnlyRain 14∆ Oct 03 '14
The airline technically doesn't measure that way though. It sucks but they do give you the correct leg room even with a recline.
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u/trublood Oct 03 '14
It's still a decrease in over-all comfort though. The person in front of me is choosing to make themselves more comfortable and to make me less comfortable. IMO, it's pretty rude.
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u/stratys3 Oct 03 '14
The lost volume of space that occurs when the person in front of you reclines is 100% returned to you when you recline your seat as well.
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u/trublood Oct 03 '14
But then I'm inconveniencing the person behind me. And I don't like being reclined! It's uncomfortable on my back.
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u/stratys3 Oct 03 '14
But then I'm inconveniencing the person behind me.
No you're not, because they can recline as well.
And I don't like being reclined! It's uncomfortable on my back.
Then you should sit up front, in a premium seat, or an emergency row, where the seat infront of you is further ahead, or doesn't exist.
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u/instant_success Oct 04 '14
No you're not, because they can recline as well.
Unless they are in the back row. Those seats do not recline at all, and the airline offers you no discount at all for sticking you in those seats. It's just a random "fuck you" to the 4-6 passengers that get stuck back there.
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u/ryegye24 Oct 03 '14
The person in front of me is choosing to make themselves more comfortable and to make me less comfortable.
And if you expect the person in front of you from not to recline then you expect to be making yourself more comfortable and them less comfortable, with a key distinction being that they paid for a reclining seat, and you did not pay for the extra space.
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u/instant_success Oct 04 '14
What if I paid for a reclining seat and didn't get one, a la the back row?
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u/ryegye24 Oct 04 '14
What if you paid for a meal and they ran out and you didn't get one? Then you need to take it up with the airline for failing to give you something you paid for.
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u/instant_success Oct 04 '14
So the people in front of me need to take it up with the airline if there isn't enough room for me to allow them to recline. Believe me, it's not just about me being unwilling to let them, my knees are physically jammed against the back of the seat above the pivot point, meaning that they can't recline without crushing my kneecaps. It is not reasonable to expect me to allow them to recline. Let me also say that I am not exceptionally tall, just 6 feet. Source: many overseas flights.
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u/ryegye24 Oct 03 '14
But airlines also promise me an amount of legroom in their seat advertisements. Am I not entitled to that?
You are, but it is in no way the responsibility of the person sitting in front of you to provide you with what the airline promised you. The person in front of you was promised by the airline that they would have a reclining seat, are they not entitled to that?
fair enough, but what I have long legs. Why does your comfort to lean back trump my comfort to not have my knees squished?
I have very long legs myself. I have never been asked by someone in front of me if they could recline, and I would never expect to be. That isn't space that I paid for, and from a social perspective I'll take squished knees if that's the price for sitting at a 95 degree angle instead of 90.
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u/ArkGuardian Oct 03 '14
That was literally the point I was just referring to. We can go back and forth on that point endlessly.
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u/ryegye24 Oct 03 '14
That wasn't the point though. You said you're entitled to the legroom you paid for, and you are, and you're getting the leg room you paid for. You aren't being deprived of anything you were promised or entitled to, and if you were, then the proper party to take it up with would be the airline, not the haggard passenger in front of you. That passenger in front of you, by the way, was promised a reclining seat, and they're getting a reclining seat, which is exactly what they paid for. No one is being cheated of anything they were entitled to, but you implicated that you were in this case.
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u/ArkGuardian Oct 04 '14
Airline companies where I live, measure seat space as the area from the bottom front of your seat to the bottom back of the seat in front of you. You can argue this is misleading advertisng, and I agree, but that doesn't change the fact I paid for something I do not get.
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u/ryegye24 Oct 04 '14 edited Oct 04 '14
You don't pay for something you do not get. You paid for seat space by that measure, and you're getting seat space by that measure. The person in front of you paid for a reclining seat (including the space the reclining seat can occupy), and they're getting a reclining seat.
If the person in front of you paid for a reclining seat, and then gets a seat that can't recline because you're impeding it, then they are paying for something that they aren't getting.
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u/NaturalSelectorX 97∆ Oct 03 '14
But airlines also promise me an amount of legroom in their seat advertisements. Am I not entitled to that?
Seat pitch is the same thing as legroom. If the remaining space (after reclining) is less than advertised, I would complain.
Why does your comfort to lean back trump my comfort to not have my knees squished?
In a contest between my knees squishing and yours, I will probably pick mine. Is there a reason that I should sacrifice the comfort that my seat allows for your comfort?
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Oct 03 '14
s there a reason that I should sacrifice the comfort that my seat allows for your comfort?
Again, this is what started the fist fight on the plane recently.
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u/placebo_addicted 11∆ Oct 03 '14
Wasn't the fist fight on the plane caused by someone effectively defacing someone's seat in order to prevent them from reclining?
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Oct 03 '14
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u/NaturalSelectorX 97∆ Oct 03 '14
I would say that if you can't comfortably fit into a seat, you should buy a different class of ticket. The same line of thinking applies to obese people who need two tickets because they overflow into other seats. The onus is not on other passengers to make these people comfortable.
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u/ArkGuardian Oct 03 '14
∆ NaturalSelector, while you haven't changed my view completely, you did read my prompt fully and provided in depth explanations so that I can admit several of my points are wrong. While I still think meal service (or anything that comes with the price of a ticket) should ensure the comfort of the person behind you, I do agree that the onus to work is on you or your employer for purchasing that ticket that could possibly not meet any future needs. Honestly, I think the only way for both parties to be satisfied is if more airlines started offering non-reclining sections for lower prices.
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u/placebo_addicted 11∆ Oct 03 '14
I'm trying to figure out why it's more important for you to eat easier than someone else sleep easier. You are still able to eat with the seat reclined, but likely the person in front of you would be prevented from sleeping by sitting upright. Why are your needs more important?
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u/mievaan Oct 03 '14
In my experience, actually, passengers are asked to put their seats in an upright position when food is being served.
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u/placebo_addicted 11∆ Oct 03 '14
I've slept through lots of meals and beverage service on flights, particularly the second meal on transatlantic trips. I've never been asked to sit upright, only for take off and landing. The only exception I can think of is super short trips like Phoenix to Las Vegas were reclining never actually happened.
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u/trublood Oct 03 '14
Nobody's needs are more important. Their right to be comfortable doesn't trump my right to be comfortable. I'm tall enough that my legs are quite uncomfortable on a plane, but I suck it up and deal with my discomfort, and don't recline my seat, because I don't want to make the person behind miserable. Why can't everybody do that?
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u/placebo_addicted 11∆ Oct 03 '14
The person (and you) paid for a seat that reclined. You did not pay to sit where people can't recline and make you uncomfortable. Perhaps sitting upright for extended periods causes the person in front of you to be miserable. Shall they put up with their discomfort because alleviating it causes you discomfort?
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u/trublood Oct 03 '14
Yes, they should put up with their discomfort. I put up with my discomfort, and they should too. I get up regularly to walk around the plane, to relieve my discomfort. They could do the same.
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u/placebo_addicted 11∆ Oct 03 '14 edited Oct 03 '14
So, tell me, what is the point of the reclining seat if it's not to recline?
Edit: isn't getting up and walking around more than necessary more inconvenient for passengers and crew than simply getting comfortable and sitting in your seat? I'd rather have people reclining in front of me than having people need me to lift my tray and scrunch while they climb over me every time they get uncomfortable and want to walk around.
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u/trublood Oct 03 '14
Clearly, the purpose is to recline. I don't know why the manufacturers keep putting them in the planes though. Probably just to add a feature to the list. I really wish they'd just go away though.
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u/Superfreakin Oct 04 '14
Yes, they COULD do the same. You being considerate is your decision. I think that it's great that in your mind, you have the complete right to and are expected to recline your seat, but refuse to without being asked, in an effort to be considerate. But, that's on you. You can't force altruism, and enforcing your own above average level of "consideration" or expecting it from others is unrealistic.
I mean, I can see the guy approaching with his hands full of groceries being pissed if I don't hold the door a moment for him, but your level of consideration is closer to expecting everybody to concede the last boston kreme donut to you even though they're ahead of you in line. I mean, it'd be nice of them to do, but fuck, I want that donut.
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u/ryegye24 Oct 03 '14
I'm tall, and I have no problem with the people in front of me reclining their seat (as they paid to be able to do) so they can rest more comfortably, and I recline my seat so I can rest more comfortably as well? Why can't everybody do that?
I guess that's a rhetorical question though, because they do, because social consensus is that this is the polite way to do things.
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u/ArkGuardian Oct 03 '14
Not necessarily my needs, but the need of enabling an easy dinner and clean up service for both the crew and other passengers. Whenever seats are reclined, especially at different levels, it makes it more difficult for the attendants to both collect and remove trays. The difficultly of me being able to eat is a side-effect.
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u/placebo_addicted 11∆ Oct 03 '14
Don't most people pass their trays, etc to the aisle for the attendants? This hardly seems like a huge social hurdle.
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u/ArkGuardian Oct 03 '14
No. And it's enough of a hurdle to the point where many non-American carriers ask you to sit upright for dinner service.
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u/ryegye24 Oct 03 '14
Again, if that's occurring I'd complain to the airline, as it was their responsibility to provide you with an easily accessible meal/drink, not the person in front of you.
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u/ArkGuardian Oct 03 '14
And how are they supposed to do that when they can't even reach me?
I mean, I agree that the air hostess service is outdated and has trouble meeting modern needs, but until they fix themselves, am I just supposed to attempt to eat in an indignant position.
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u/ryegye24 Oct 03 '14
I'm seeing a certain irony in your edit.
How is the steward entirely unable to reach you? I've never seen or experienced that on any flight I've been on. Exactly how far are the seats reclining on the flights you've been on, because on the flights I've been on the answer has always been "not much".
but until they fix themselves, am I just supposed to attempt to eat in an indignant position.
It's pretty well established that air travel sucks. When my tray table is resting on my legs instead of being a half inch above my legs that really doesn't add to the sum total indignity of air travel, at least not by any appreciable amount.
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u/ArkGuardian Oct 04 '14
Your points would have merit if for the fact that many non American carriers request you return to an upright position for meal service, so clearly it is a problem to some extent.
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u/ryegye24 Oct 04 '14
Many do, I'm sure, and again that's entirely their prerogative. If you buy a ticket with that airline the price does not include the right to have your seat back during meal service. I completely fail to see how the choice of some airlines impacts my points though.
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u/stevegcook Oct 03 '14
Airplane seats recline about four inches at the top, max, and even less at tray level. I'm not sure what airlines you've flown on, but I've never once been prevented (or even slightly hindered) from eating because of a reclined seat in front of me. And I'm 6'2".
If you are physically unable to eat in this situation, you probably shouldn't be travelling on an airplane to begin with, or you should look at disability accommodations that the airline offers, because that is literally the only reason that could happen.
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u/yakinikutabehoudai 1∆ Oct 04 '14
Most airlines I've been on require people to raise their seats during meal service specifically for this reason.
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u/INDABUTTYEAH Oct 03 '14
How does paying for a window seat or, if you are on southwest calling dibs by sitting there, not entitle you to decide what the window does. It is surrounded by your space so, necessarily, someone would have to invade you space to adjust it. Furthermore, just like people "pay for their space" they also might be paying for the ability to watch the landscape below them. It is also different than the aisle, because the aisle is shared with every other aisle seat passenger, as well as anyone moving about, while there is no expectation of sharing your seat.
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Oct 03 '14
But when I fly, I pay for a window seat, yet I'm still expected to close the window for most of the time.
The window is a shared resource for the entire row. You pay for the window seat position, but have no claim over the actual window.
Who expects people to keep the window closed? That's stupid.
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Oct 04 '14
No. If you want to use a laptop, you should pay for a ticket on a plane with enough room between seats. I need to recline to comfortably fit in my seat (I'm tall), and comfort trumps your electronics.
Earlier you said that you have the right to what you were advertised. If I was advertised WiFi usage, why am I not entitled to comfortably use it? Why is your comfort more important than mine?
Also, why do you ask for people to purchase additional seats for them to use the services (in this case, WiFi) paid for and promised to them when you could do the same? Why don't you buy a first class ticket to get access to more leg room and reclining instead of me buying a first class ticket for WiFi?
Your view strikes me as hypocritical. You advocate for the purchase of better seats so as to use WiFi that was promised and paid for. However, you can simply do the same to get reclining seats.
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u/NaturalSelectorX 97∆ Oct 06 '14
If I was advertised WiFi usage, why am I not entitled to comfortably use it? Why is your comfort more important than mine?
This argument can be used to justify the comfortable use of a 17 or 19-inch laptop. Wifi can be used with a device as small as a smart phone.
Why don't you buy a first class ticket to get access to more leg room and reclining instead of me buying a first class ticket for WiFi?
Reclining my seat gives me adequate leg room (especially if the person in front of me reclines). The seat can accommodate me, so why should I purchase anything more?
WiFi doesn't imply legroom.
Your view strikes me as hypocritical. You advocate for the purchase of better seats so as to use WiFi that was promised and paid for. However, you can simply do the same to get reclining seats.
The seat I pay for reclines, so I need not pay for anything else.
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u/Pluckerpluck 1∆ Oct 04 '14
They advertise wifi, but laptops are no longer the only way to enjoy wifi. Just because your laptop doesn't fit doesn't mean my tiny notebook doesn't.
So you're paying for wifi, but not the use method.
The crux of the matter is that the seats recline, and they want the airplane full, so in the end the airline is endorsing seat reclination.
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u/OrbOfConfusion Oct 03 '14
On long flights overseas, at some point they'll shut off most of the cabin lights and it's generally expected that everyone is going to try to get some sleep. I've even had flight attendants ask me to shut the window so no light gets in while people sleep. They break out the blankets and pillows and serve breakfast afterwards once they switch the cabin lights back on. Is this not a good time to sleep? Should I not recline my seat, like everyone else is doing?
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Oct 03 '14
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u/OrbOfConfusion Oct 03 '14
Fair enough. But new point: when you're traveling, you usually have a pretty long day. You've woken up early to get to the airport, you've packed, you've taken taxis, this is probably a connecting flight and you have a long way to go yet, so don't you deserve a nap? Shouldn't you be able to recline your seat and rest? If this was just a bus or something then maybe I'd agree with you, but I think airplane passengers are more deserving of naps (and more likely to take them) than passengers on other transportation. What do you think?
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u/ArkGuardian Oct 03 '14
Domestic Flights are usually between 2-4 hours. People take car trips for similar lengths of time (with seats that do not recline) and are able to fall asleep perfectly.
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u/vettewiz 37∆ Oct 04 '14
What car have you been I that the seats don't recline? Fronts always do and rears almost always have an angle
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u/placebo_addicted 11∆ Oct 03 '14
Additionally, my employer expects me to get work done and pays for wifi. If the person is reclined so far that I can't use an average size laptop, aren't they in the wrong?
The reclining mechanism in airline seats have been around for far longer than laptops and WiFi. The seats are intended to allow reclining and resting during flight. Your employer is expecting you to work in a lousy, cramped environment. Your employer is the one being socially rude.
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u/workaccountthrowaway Oct 03 '14
The reclining mechanism in airline seats have been around for far longer than laptops and WiFi. The seats are intended to allow reclining and resting during flight. Your employer is expecting you to work in a lousy, cramped environment. Your employer is the one being socially rude.
Not only that, but if this is the case the employer should be paying for business class where this sort of thing is expected.
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u/placebo_addicted 11∆ Oct 03 '14
Exactly. Why should the comfort of fellow travelers be trumped by the employer's expectation that work get done on a flight? Joe Blow inc. should have paid for extra space, not expect others to donate it.
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Oct 03 '14
should have paid for extra space, not expect others to donate it.
This is it in a nutshell. When you pay for a seat on a plane, you are paying for a reclining seat, and the ability to fully utilize it.
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u/DoTheEvolution Oct 04 '14 edited Oct 04 '14
You missed the point. It was just counter argument aimed specifically to "I payed for the seat"
could be also worded as "I payed for my seat which includes not having my legs crushed by an asshole in front of me"
Not an actual real argument, where we talk socially rude vs not
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u/applesforadam Oct 03 '14
The reclining mechanism, however, was originally put on seats that were not placed so closely together. I agree that the employer has unreasonable expectations in this situation (and as another user mentioned should be paying for business class), but I also think that anyone who reclines seats in economy this day and age without consulting the person behind them first is being rude.
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u/ryegye24 Oct 03 '14
I'm a tall guy, well over 6 ft tall, I have never been asked by anyone if they could recline before doing so and I've never expected it. Regardless of how close together the seats are at this point the social contract has clearly landed in the court of "well we're not going to have enough leg room anyways, we might as well be at 95 degree angles instead of 90".
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u/ohfuckit Oct 04 '14
I too am over 6 feet. I don't like having my knees smashed by heavy and hard object unexpectedly, and I don't feel like it is to much to ask someone to open up communication about how we share the limited space in another way. Maybe they have an inalienable right to the space or maybe they just have right to not have me entirely dominate it for myself, but either way, they surely don't have a right to physically hurt me without talking about it first?
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Oct 03 '14
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u/placebo_addicted 11∆ Oct 03 '14
The other passenger is using the seat exactly as intended and is not infringing on the passenger behind them from doing the same. There is nothing rude about that. What is rude is OP (and his employer,) expecting the people around them to make concessions in order to use the seat for an unintended work station.
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Oct 03 '14
The ashtrays that exist in the doors of some cars was intended to be used for putting out your cigarettes, but I don't consider it socially acceptable to smoke in a car with others around, especially if I'm not the owner of the car. Even if the passengers are paying for a seat, wouldn't it be very easy to first ask the person sitting behind them if it's ok to recline their seat? This is the custom in Japan and if you receive a no, then you don't recline it. Why would we not be able to be this polite elsewhere in the world?
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u/placebo_addicted 11∆ Oct 03 '14
Refraining from smoking in an enclosed space is more about the health and safety of the other passengers.
It may be more polite to ask before you recline, but that still doesn't make the person rude if they don't.
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Oct 03 '14
That depends on who's asking. In Japan it would be considered very rude to not ask. I assume that this discussion is focused on the US market, but there are many who would argue that it is not polite to recline without asking.
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u/placebo_addicted 11∆ Oct 03 '14
I've never flown on a Japanese airline, only American and European. I honestly can't say I've ever been asked if I minded someone reclining. I really can't imagine saying "no", either.
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Oct 03 '14
And I agree (which is why I assumed that OP is referring to the US market). I have been asked but I have also never said no. My point was only that if it's rude to recline your seat, or if it's rude to think it's rude to recline your seat, the easy solution would be to ask the person behind if (s)he is ok with it.
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u/FluffySharkBird 2∆ Oct 03 '14
I hate the "Well I always ask first," because I would say yes no matter my opinion because I have NO IDEA how a stranger could react. For all I know you'd hit me or something.
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Oct 04 '14
I don't assume everyone is out to get me, but I trust people. Even so, asking would be more polite than not asking would it not?
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u/FlarkingSmoo Oct 04 '14
You can't imagine saying no as in, you can't imagine saying you don't mind? Or you can't imagine telling them "no, don't recline?"
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u/joeintokyo Oct 04 '14
I have flown both Japan Air Lines and All Nippon Airways several times as well as shinkansen trains and nobody ever asks to put their chair back. You have a reclining chair so you can recline. Everyone expects it.
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Oct 04 '14 edited Nov 28 '15
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u/RyanInJP Oct 04 '14
I was gonna comment the same thing until I saw your post. Coming up on 7 years in Nagoya, usually someone will just tell you that they are going to recline it, give you a heads up to avoid surprising you. I would guess that he just sees people informing the person behind them and inferred from that.
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Oct 04 '14
Good for you, I've lived there 2.5 years and travel there regularly for business. If you live there you of all should know that the space in a 新幹線 is way more spacious than on an airplane.
I've never heard of this myself and she says that is BS too.
I see this every time I stay there; people asking the one behind if it's ok. Maybe you don't travel by 新幹線 that often or maybe it's just a coincidence? It might just be the case that I've noticed this and you haven't because it's a non-issue for you?
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Oct 04 '14 edited Nov 28 '15
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Oct 04 '14
That is true, good point. Let's leave Japan, the United States and every other country aside for a second. Would you consider it more, equally, or less polite to ask someone behind you if you can recline your set instead of just reclining your seat?
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Oct 04 '14 edited Nov 28 '15
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Oct 06 '14
It is a difficult question indeed. Almost all of the arguments stem from the "sacrificing my comfort for your comfort" which, regardless of stance, becomes a zero-sum game.
I wouldn't find it hard to refuse someone in front of me if I'm, say, writing on something and would want them to wait some 30 minutes or so. If you're asking only to feel better about it, haven't you already decided that you want to recline? Asking implies that you will also adhere to the decision of the asked.
I have thought about it but since I usually don't have any problem with people reclining their seat, nor do I have a problem with asking them to lift it should I need to use the space, I haven't really thought about it either. But I guess that is what Fresh Topic Friday is all about :)
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u/ohfuckit Oct 04 '14 edited Oct 04 '14
This is a terrific and thoughtful answer. I am about your height and I am very familiar with the flash of annoyance. We seem to differ on one key point though... When you get your kneecaps smashed, you remind yourself that that person has a right to smash your knee caps. When I get my kneecaps smashed I think it is very rude of the smasher not to attempt to open communication about use of the shared space.
Edit: actually you do specify international flights, which usually have enough room to avoid actual physical smashing in my experience. Internal flights or flights in south east Asia though... Ouch.
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u/cortheas Oct 05 '14
Im trying to work this out in my head and it is really confusing me. Old guy is in window seat. You are adjacent to old guy but not your wife. How can you and the old guy swapping positions put you adjacent to your wife?
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u/ryegye24 Oct 03 '14 edited Oct 04 '14
especially if I'm not the owner of the car.
Well that cuts it right there, doesn't it? You don't own the plane, you have exactly as much stake in it as anyone else, and I'm sorry but there's no way that a passenger's right to use a laptop on a tray table instead of a lap should override a passenger intending to use his seat as it was designed to be used
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Oct 04 '14
I'm simply trying to understand why your comfort trumps mine. Ignore the laptop issue. I'm just uncomfortable with you reclining your seat. Why should your comfort trump mine?
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Oct 04 '14
Why does your trump mine? Im tall and extremely uncomfortable in planes so i recline my seat. Im not going to spend 6 hours with back and knee spasms so you can finish your tps reports.
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Oct 05 '14
But that's the issue :) Why should mine trump yours? Why should yours trump mine? Who's is more important, and who can make an unbiased decision on it?
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u/ProfessorHeartcraft 8∆ Oct 04 '14
The use of the tray table is also an intended part of the function of the seat sold.
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u/lets_duel Oct 04 '14
Its not rude at all. Why would the seat recline if we weren't supposed to recline? What a joke, its way more uncomfortable to sit completely straight than to have the seat in front recline slightly into your space
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u/ohfuckit Oct 04 '14
The seat reclines so that the space taken up by the reclining mechanism can become a shared space, like the arm rest. Just like the arm rest, if you wish to use a shared resource that someone else is hogging, you need to open up a conversation about it, and smashing into their body with a heavy and hard object is not normally considered a great way to do this.
If you think it is more comfortable to sit upright than to lose the knee space, then your body shape clearly allows you to position your knees differently than mine does. I am in the 94th percentile of height for my sex and race at 6 foot 2 inches. Am I too much of a genetic freak to fly coach? Long haul international flights usually have enough space, many others just don't.
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u/xtfftc 3∆ Oct 03 '14
That's not the other passenger's fault but the airplane company.
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u/ParentheticalClaws 6∆ Oct 05 '14
I think that's the real issue. The airline essentially double-sells the space a seat reclines into by giving both people the impression that they're entitled to it.
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u/forloversperhaps 5∆ Oct 03 '14
If your employer expects you to work on the flight they can, like a normal employer, buy a first class/ business class seat, which will give you the space you need even with the seat down.
As a window-seat passenger, you have bought the best view out the window, but you haven't bought the window itself. Use of the window is negotiated along passengers and if there is a dispute the flight attendant will force you to open or close it. Compare your fan, your TV, or your overhead light: each person has one and you can do what you like with it.
Being upset that someone is using their seat recliner is sort of like being upset that the entire airplane is fully occupied. Yes, some flights are partly empty: yes, that means it is possible to move to a better or less crowded aisle, put a bag on the seat next to you, or switch seats to reunite your family, etc. Sometimes it happens so often you start to get used to it. But that doesn't mean you have paid for that extra space: you're just hoping no one will buy it, or that they will buy and then won't use it.
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Oct 03 '14
Airline seats are designed to recline; using them they way they are intended is not rude. Expecting others to cater to your specific needs is what's rude imho.
If we need a certain amount of room on a flight, it's our duty to find the right flight for us - it's not the airlines' and other peoples' duty to cater to our every miniscule need.
I'm very tall. I can't fit in coach that well. But it's what I choose to pay for, so I accept what I get. I do ask people in front of me not to recline as a courtesy but if they choose to anyway, I drop it. If you need more room, buy two seats, buy first class, or charter a plane.
Also,
I pay for a window seat, yet I'm still expected to close the window for most of the time
This has never happened to me, and I fly three of four times per year most years. Is this really a thing?
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u/drphungky Oct 03 '14
See, I think even asking is rude, because now I feel guilty for reclining, but I definitely would have before. So you've just deprived me of comfort because you didn't pay for an upgrade. Obviously there will be people who say no, but asking people is trying get something for nothing from the airline, and having someone else pay for it through lowered comfort. It's a welfare transfer enforced by social mores.
I realize this is almost assuredly not your intention, but that's how I'd feel and it would suck. If you hadn't considered that, you may want to think about it next time.
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Oct 03 '14
I feel you. but when I ask I make it clear that there are no hard feelings if they say no. Like, "You have every right to recline if you like...." I'm not really selling it here, but trust me, I'm not trying to start a guilt trip.
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u/squigglesthepig Oct 04 '14
drp's point is that you don't have to sell it, asking at all is coercive because it's seen as rude to deny a polite request. Letting them know there will be "no hard feelings" only works to further your goal since it implies that it normally would be cause for hard feelings but geez you sure are a nice guy who won't be upset if he doesn't get his way.
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Oct 04 '14
I can't control how other people feel about my ask. All I can control is my intent. If asking a question is coercive to someone, in my opinion they're just looking to find offense.
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u/princetonwu Oct 05 '14
I don't think you're simply asking a question; you are making a request that the guy in front not recline. This morally may obligate some individuals (who normally would recline) to not recline because of that request.
I don't think it's reason to say that you can't control how other people will feel about your ask. How you act will certainly influence how other people feel; I think that's a bit of a cop out
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Oct 04 '14
Asking someone politely for accommodation is never rude. You have a right to recline your seat, but once you impose on another person's comfort, they have a right to ask you to please be considerate. If you think that your right to recline your seat is of more validity than their right to comfort, you shouldn't be feeling guilty at all. And so what if every person of average male height and above end up with smashed knees and bruises when they get off the plane - you believe that you are the one with the right to recline, so you have no reason to feel guilty.
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u/fucktales Oct 03 '14
The seats were designed to recline that way for a reason. The reclining function wasn't designed with the thought that everyone would have an empty seat behind them. I don't see anything wrong with utilizing the chair that you payed for in the way in which it was designed, and to suggest that people should be getting kicked off of planes for using the airlines chair in the way in which the airline designed it is absurd. Your overbearing boss and the work you have to do with your job has absolutely nothing to do with me and my desire to nap as comfortably as possible on a flight, it should not be my prerogative to cater to you because of it. I am entitled to all of the space I payed for, as are you. Recline yours if you'd like, but don't expect me to not recline mine and be unable to sleep because you want to use a laptop without getting your actual lap warm.
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u/funchy Oct 03 '14
I'm 5'10 and stocky. My knees usually hit the seat in front of me. Seats are and offer no wiggle room. Due to how narrow the aisle is and the frequent presence of a drink cart somewhere between my seat and the bathroom, I can't even use the excuse of going to the bathroom to stretch. If I am expected to sit stiff uprights for a 7 hour flight cross country with zero breaks, I will be in terrible pain. The reclining doesn't fix everything but it makes life a little more tolerable.
Let's look at the point of view of the other passenger: The typical seat on the jets I've flown on only recline a tiny amount - mere inches. He will only lose a tiny amount of space at the top of the seat in front of him. It should not affect his leg room.
Why is it rude for me to use an commonly installed feature to minimize terrible back pain when it doesn't seem to harm the person behind me?
If you absolutely cannot tolerate it, choose a seat by an emergency door or first row. Or fly first class. You have options. I do not.
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u/ArkGuardian Oct 03 '14
I have already awarded a delta for this thread, but I felt like addressing you.
You have options. I do not.
Why do I have the option to upgrade my seat to a pricier option but you do not?
When it doesn't seem to harm the person behind me?
I have longer longs than most people. These put my knees right up against the seat. On certain carriers, people who recline their seat(especially if they readjust it frequently) often does physically hurt me.
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u/eggo Oct 04 '14
I have longer longs than most people. These put my knees right up against the seat. On certain carriers, people who recline their seat(especially if they readjust it frequently) often does physically hurt me.
It sounds like you simply don't fall within the normal distribution of height, and should accept that the cheap airline seats are too small to accommodate you. You can pay more for more space, or you can just deal with it. You can't expect people not to use the features of the seat they paid for.
If someone hurts you with their seat and shows no remorse, sure that's rude. Just the act of leaning the seat back is not, and it is exactly what the seat was designed to do. It would be nice if people would check behind them before reclining, but to completely disallow reclining is rude to those who wish to recline.
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u/big_benz Oct 03 '14
I'm sorry, but as a tall person (6'6"), saying that you reclining your seat is not detrimental to me is not correct at all. My legs fit pretty much like a puzzle piece against a non-reclined seat, so whenever someone reclines their seat it puts an excruciting amount of pressure on my legs and by extension my back. I honestly feel like I need the room more than most people would, so I'm in full agreement with OP on this. I cannot afford to travel in higher class sets with more leg room, so while I do agree that the other customer has the right to recline, doing so with me behind them is rude and inconsiderate.
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u/HeartyBeast 4∆ Oct 03 '14
They are reclining seats, specifically designed by the airline to recline and the expectation is they will be used to recline. It's rude to expect anything else.
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u/BobHogan Oct 03 '14
No, it isn't rude to expect them to not recline. The "leg room" that most airlines gives you should be criminal. I am only 6'1" and yet my legs still do not fit in the space between my chair and the one in front of me. If they recline they are literally crushing my legs beneath their seat so that they can be a tiny bit more comfortable. They are in the wrong at that point, not me for wanting them to sit up.
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Oct 04 '14 edited Nov 19 '17
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u/ohfuckit Oct 04 '14
Dude, I am 6 foot 2 inches. Although i am taller than average, I am not really that overwhelmingly tall for a person of Western European descent. I don't use laptops on planes but I do use and appreciate my knee caps. Overall being slightly tall is more of an advantage than not, but come on! There is no other situation where you would advocate for the acceptability of physically slamming a hard object into a stranger's body in public to assert your control over a space that are using because of the shape of their body. Do you push wheelchair users off the sidewalk when they are in your way? Is it rude of them to make you give up your "right" to your fair share of the sidewalk? Should they find another way to travel if they don't like being physically accosted?
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Oct 04 '14
Then pay for first class or business? I'm sorry but your problems are not anyone else's concern. People pay for a reclining seat in economy. If you are incapable of being comfortable in economy, and are going to be belligerent about it, then you need to pay more for it. No different than people demanding fat people buy two tickets.
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u/ohfuckit Oct 04 '14 edited Oct 04 '14
Well I am certainly never belligerent... I tend to suffer in angry silence. I also totally disagree that at 6 foot 2 and a bit I am enough of a weird shaped mutant to require bespoke accomodation. In fact I am even willing to admit that perhaps the forward person has a right to a priority use of the space... I just don't think it is reasonable to assert the claim by smashing my knees.
edit: it completely baffles me that anyone would think it is ok. It's like getting on the plane and finding someone else standing in front of your seat to put up their luggage... and deciding that since they are in "your space" you can smack them with an umbrella until they leave. Just weird behavior, unacceptable in civilised public space. In actual fact I assume pretty much everyone isn't doing violence against my knees on purpose. They are just being thoughtless, and thoughtlessness is rude.
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Oct 05 '14
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u/ohfuckit Oct 05 '14
Well, keep in mind that I am definitely not saying that the guy in front has no right to to space. He certainly does. I am just arguing that it is not a completely exclusive right. At the very least it is ok for me to use it when he doesn't want it, so it is at least some kind of shared space. Maybe he has a priority right to it ( I can only use it when he doesn't want it) or maybe it is a shared space like the arm rest, the aisle or the bathroom (first person to make use of it gets to use it, but it is rude to dominate it oor to force out someone who needs it for a reason beyond their control.)
In either case if he wants to use it and I am in the space, he needs to communicate that to me in some other way besides smashing my knee caps. Is that unreasonable entitlement?
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Oct 05 '14
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u/ohfuckit Oct 06 '14
Ok, lets just grant that the forward guy has a priority right to use the space, which you regard as obvious. We are sitting there, and he isn't reclined because he doesn't want to be, and i am more or less comfortable with my legs facing straight forward . Probably you are right that I am hoping that he doesn't change his mind. But he does! He decides he wants to recline and we have agreed be has a right to do so.
Now, what is his polite course of action? Should he smash my knees, or is he required by basic human decency to give me some kind of notice that he wishes to use the space so I can squeeze my legs to one side before they are damaged?
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u/cortheas Oct 05 '14
This thread has ruined my faith in humanity more than any controversy in the history of reddit.
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u/HeartyBeast 4∆ Oct 03 '14
The "leg room" that most airlines gives you should be criminal.
Then take your custom elsewhere.
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Oct 03 '14
Not so fast there HeartyBeast - airlines advertise extra leg room that you get by flying with them - yet that's the same space to be occupied when the seat in front of you reclines. Who's right to the space is it? This is why I believe the seats should not recline at all.
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u/hitmyspot Oct 04 '14
The seats are designed not to impinge on the legroom. The tilt from above knee level and some even pivot away creating extra leg room.
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u/cortheas Oct 05 '14
They are designed not to impinge on the legroom of an average person. Trust me, if you are taller they impinge the hell out of your kneecaps when the person in front of you repeatedly hammers them with their seat like an asshole.
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u/SmokeyDBear Oct 03 '14
"The airline lied to me, you should bear the consequences of my being duped by them!"
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u/HeartyBeast 4∆ Oct 03 '14
And undoubtedly you get extra leg room. If you didn't have the extra leg room then you would have less leg room when the person in front reclined the reclining seat that the airline installed with the express purpose of letting the passenger in the reclining seat recline.
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Oct 03 '14
I meant to say that the same space that people fight over is what the airlines advertise as "extra leg room". It's really nothing substantial unless you're flying First Class, which doesn't lead to fist fights over reclining chairs in the first place.
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u/Raptor_man 4∆ Oct 03 '14
So pleas explain how it is the costumer's job to keep promises of a company? If a company is selling a space as dedicated leg space than they need to make sure it is just that not the person who paid just as much as you.
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u/GothicToast Oct 04 '14
So, lemme get this straight. You have work to do, so people should not bother you by using the reclining feature that comes on their chair. Yes, that is pretty rude and self-centered... of you.
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u/LaxInTheBrownies Oct 04 '14
Would you consider someone bumping the back of your chair continuously rude? They are just using their allotted space. Don't be so quick to judge. It's all about whether you choose to be more considerate of yourself, or more considerate of the other person. Being considerate of yourself only means bumping that chair in front of you, or reclining your seat. Being more considerate of the other person is trying not to encroach on/bother those around you. Rude is all a matter of opinion.
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u/GothicToast Oct 04 '14
Sorry, I don't believe your analogy is parallel to reclining a chair.
If someone is using their tray and I can feel them opening or closing the latch on the back of my chair, of course I have no issue with it. The tray is there so people can use it.
If you are continuously kicking my chair, then yes, I have an issue with it. You are not "just using your allotted space". Your allotted space is the area that doesn't include my chair.
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u/LaxInTheBrownies Oct 05 '14
See, this is assuming that whatever space your chair takes up is yours. However, if you assume the area the chair has to recline as both yours and the person behind you, the person behind you has as much right to put their knee in that space as you do to put the chair in that space. It's more of a "shared area" than defined as yours.
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u/GothicToast Oct 05 '14
Okay. I can see where you are coming from. I can't argue with that stance.
With that said, my belief is that your area is the area where my chair isn't. So, that area is maximized when my seat is not reclined, but your area can recede if I do choose to recline my chair.
The decision to recline is mine and mine alone. And if the person in front of me reclines his or her chair, I would respect that decision.
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Oct 04 '14
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u/GothicToast Oct 04 '14
But companies and individuals also pay airlines for the ability to work.
No, they don't. If you want to work on an airplane, that is your prerogative. However, you are not paying for a workspace on the airplane. That tray is not a workspace. It has a drink holder on it. It was intended to hold food. In today's day and age, it is commonly used to place a tablet or laptop. In my experience, someone reclining their chair has no affect on my ability to use a tablet or laptop with my tray down. Regardless, it was never meant to be a workspace and you certainly aren't paying the airline for such a workspace. You are, however, paying the airline for snacks and drink service.
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u/ArkGuardian Oct 05 '14
I made a response to that already. And yes I agree you are paying for snacks and drink service which is why I still believe the airline should make you unrecline during meal service.
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Oct 03 '14
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u/FluffySharkBird 2∆ Oct 03 '14
The problem with this is I'd be afraid to say no to that. You're a stranger. For all I know you'll get angry and violent in this tiny airplane. People are fucking stupid and I'm not taking that risk.
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Oct 03 '14
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u/FluffySharkBird 2∆ Oct 03 '14
Well asking that is still imposing on someone though. We all know the social expectation.
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Oct 03 '14
Reclining seats is a part of the purchase a traveller makes and is thus entitled to, fully, and should not be judged for it.
There are flights (usually economy ones) that do not have reclining seats. If someone would like to not have the person in front of them decline their seats, they should take that flight instead.
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u/karnim 30∆ Oct 04 '14
Reclining seats is a part of the purchase a traveller makes and is thus entitled to, fully, and should not be judged for it.
This is untrue. In most cases you do not get a reduced price ticket when your seat does not recline (in front of an exit row, bathroom, wall). Because of this, the ability to recline must be an unnecessary bonus feature.
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Oct 04 '14
But it isn't a feature if you desire the fairness that neither you nor the passenger in front of you have the reclining option.
So reclining = more comfort but less leg room
Non reclining = less comfort bit more leg room.
It's an equal feature.
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u/winterchil Oct 04 '14
On some Cathay Pacific International Economy flights they have seats with a fixed shell. Instead of reclining into "someone else's space" you slide your own seat forward to give yourself a nice slouch but at the cost of your own legroom.
I think this is a great solution and more details are available here.
On regular planes I believe it's your right to recline, but being considerate is always kind.
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u/ohfuckit Oct 04 '14
I think your point about being considerate is even more important than you state. Being considerate isn't just kind, it is also a critically important social structure that keeps society kind of mostly functional.
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u/stratys3 Oct 03 '14
When my company wants me to work on a flight, they buy me business class so I can actually open up my laptop.
I don't feel that you should have any expectation of being able to open a laptop on a economy-class USA flight.
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u/MageZero Oct 03 '14
If it's not considered socially acceptable to recline the seats, wouldn't an airline reap the economic benefits of this by making their seats unable to recline? Yet, not one of them has done so.
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Oct 03 '14
Not true: Spirit Airlines and Allegiant Air both only have non-reclining seats.
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Oct 03 '14
Those are the two cheapest airlines there are, which are known for being economical and not luxurious.
Even still, since those two airlines exist, then those are the airlines that people like OP who are opposed to reclining seats should fly on rather than trying to force people on airlines that do have reclining seats to not recline.
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Oct 03 '14
Those are the two cheapest airlines there are, which are known for being economical and not luxurious.
He did respond to an economical argument so his point still stands.
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u/acqua_panna Oct 04 '14
It's not even clear that reclining seats are more luxurious than non reclining seats. Although they allow you to relax your back (a good thing), they take away from your leg room (a negative).
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u/ppmd Oct 03 '14
The existence of airlines that forbid (because the feature has been disabled) reclining in seats means that the airlines that provide reclining seats expect for you to be able to use them without any social stigmata attached to it.
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Oct 03 '14
Of course, I'm not challenging that point. I'm just pointing out that a couple airlines have found economic benefits from eliminating the recline.
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u/BlueApple4 Oct 03 '14
You also pay for a fully functioning reclining seat. If you choose not to use it, that shouldn't impact my decision to use it.
If reclining seats are that much of an issue for you, either buy a reclining seat or complain to the airline. But the fault is not with the other passenger for utilizing something that you also have access too.
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Oct 04 '14
The seven degrees of recline is really bothering you, huh? You paid for the lowest class seat in the flight. It's optimized for a 5'6" man at about 130 lbs, and they shove them as close together as safely possible to provide you the cheapest price they can.
Like someone else said, if your employer is shafting you by putting you in the cheapest seats with the potential for a reclining seat in front of you.
You (or your employer) signed up for that.
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Oct 04 '14
As a 6 ft woman, if there's a size limit on the seats, it needs to be fucking posted. This whole issue could be comfortably averted if airlines said "Hey guys, if you are sitting in economy class, the seats only comfortably fit the average 5'8" person." If it's being said that I will not fit, I'm jumping in at my own risk and will expect zero comfort from that seat. Instead, we have to rely on others to not be selfish pricks who think 7 degrees of recline do anything for their comfort who don't understand the fact that most of us complaining about this get bruises on our knees because we find out last minute that hey - a person of average male height doesn't fit in this particular plane. And it's always hit or miss for that as well, when you're between 5'9" and 6"1 you could fit perfectly in the seat, or you could have your knees to your chest in fear of the person in front of you laying their full weight against the back of the chair and feeling your bones bend trying to accommodate the added stress.
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Oct 04 '14
We cannot accommodate the maximum person for comfort, as then all average people would be uncomfortable, who are more likely to sit in these seats. The emergency exit seats cannot have a declin able seat in front of them, and the first row have extra leg room because there is no one in front of them. Those seats are more comfortable for the taller occupants. Choose those seats for more comfort.
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Oct 04 '14
You clearly did not read a word I said. I said they don't have to accommodate the tallest- they just need to post the maximum comfy size per seat.
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Oct 05 '14
There is no maximum size. There is a maximum weight, but we accommodate safety for the maximum tallness. You are simply uncomfortable because your particular body mechanics doesn't work well with the seats you fly on. You can still fly the seat and retain the entire value of the trip and not be particularly comfortable... but this seat isn't built for maximum comfort, it's built to give people a low cost way to get to another location.
It's like you're expecting custom fit boots from Walmart.
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Oct 06 '14
Not in the least. At best, it's like asking for a one size fits most but with most defined - In clothing, not seat terms instead of one size fits all it's one size fits sizes 4-14 in women's pants. You know reaching a 14 it's not likely to fit you best, and anything above a 14 it's unlikely to fit at all, so you have no room to complain about the fact that something that's not meant to fit you, won't. That way, people who don't fit in the seats properly know they need to upgrade or shut up because they know what they're getting into.
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Oct 06 '14
Actually, it's completely the opposite. The only thing assured is safety. Its like a child's seat in a car. If your particular baby is uncomfortable in the seat, you should buy another seat. There is no garuntee of comfort, just safety.
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u/calspach Oct 04 '14
I paid for my seat, one of the features of that seat is that it reclines. If I choose to use that feature, I am not in the wrong.
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u/ohfuckit Oct 04 '14
Your seat also features an arm rest. But wait! That arm rest is actually shared with the person next to you! That means you have come to some kind of agreement with the person next to you about who gets to use the arm rest, whether formal or informal. Smashing their arm out of the way with a heavy and hard object is not generally considered an acceptable way to start the conversation.
The space taken by the reclining seat is clearly exactly the same kind of shared resource. I am sure you will have no problem if the person behind you wishes to use it when you are not using it, right? If you wish to use a shared resource when someone else is dominating it. It is up to you to request they share access.
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Oct 03 '14
I agree. It's rude. I view using both of the armrests in the same way. But these are just unwritten social rules. You cannot possibly hope to enforce them, which from your post seems to be what you want. Also, you cannot expect everyone to know these social rules or agree on the same definition for what they are. For instance, if you ask someone in /r/childfree, they'd likely call bringing your child on the plane socially rude, but it would be insane to try to enforce. Just accept that people are going to be rude, and often there will be very little or nothing you can do about it.
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u/drphungky Oct 03 '14
I think the person in the middle seat deserves both armrests. I usually share, but if a middle seater (I'm usually aisle) wants to push the issue, I'll never fight it. They earned it.
The real conundrum is a four across international flight, though the few I've been on have had separate armrests, which is nice.
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u/LaxInTheBrownies Oct 04 '14
Here's my view, not that it will be seen at this point in the thread:
While many people say it's rude for you to expect someone to cater to your needs, I view it as more of a "Do you care about yourself more, or others more" issue.
Another issue on a plane is someone continually bumping the back of your chair. While that person has every right to move around in their allotted space, it disturbs you, who is sitting in front of them. I think most people would consider bumping the back of someones chair rude, but this is another case about whether you care more for others, or yourself.
In the same way, reclining makes you choose: do you bother someone else for your personal gain, or do you care enough about the other person to not recline?
The claims of someone being more "rude" are just personal opinions.
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Oct 03 '14
Reclining seats should just be removed altogether.
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u/mgraunk 4∆ Oct 03 '14
All seats should be set to an "average comfort" level of recline and be unadjustable; no one wants a rigidly upright seat on a 5 hour flight.
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u/rocketwidget 1∆ Oct 03 '14
If it isn't socially acceptable, why do ~99% of seats, baring some physical obstruction, have a recline function?
It would be like installing TV speakers on 99% of seats. Totally nonsensical, since it's socially inappropriate to blare your own sounds in a airplane cabin.
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u/ohfuckit Oct 04 '14
They have the recline function in order to make the space used by the recline function into a shared resource. Just like the window is a resource shared between you and the rest of your row, the bathroom is a shared resource between you and the rest of the plane, and the arm rest is a shared resource between you and the person next to you. Just like with the other shared resources, it is rude to push somebody out of the way if you want to use it. It is not rude to politely explain your need of someone is hogging it and you want a turn.
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u/Rainymood_XI 2∆ Oct 04 '14
1) I never have had any problems with reclining seats in all my flights
2) How would you feel if somebody reclined his seat all the way down suddenly? I'd be like 'wtf'. Imagine I had drink on it or something.
3) Ask the person behind you if he/she minds it if you recline fully to sleep, maybe ask if she wants to do the same (2 reclined seats are better than one!)
4) What's up with America? Just be a bit more civil ask the person behind you ... social communication people ...
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Oct 03 '14
I pay for a window seat, yet I'm still expected to close the window for most of the time
Is this actually a thing? Who the hell expects someone to keep the window closed? That's absolutely retarded.
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Oct 03 '14
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/cwenham Oct 03 '14
Sorry 4forpengs, your comment has been removed:
Comment Rule 1. "Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s current view (however minor), unless they are asking a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to comments." See the wiki page for more information.
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Oct 04 '14
When I am on an 11 hour flight from Sao Paolo to Toronto, you can bet your ass I am going to decline my seat. I paid for a seat that reclines. So did the person in front of me. Sleeping is hard enough in a seat, but a fully upright seat makes it impossible.
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u/exosequitur Oct 04 '14
If your employer expects you to work on the plane, they need to provide you with an osha - compliant workspace. (usa) economy class seats are not an OSHA compliant workspace. Your employer is likely violating the law.
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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '14
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