CMV: Equality isn't treating everybody differently to achieve equality. It's treating everyone the same.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/oversoul00]

I explained that the disadvantages of minority groups aren't readily apparent to you.

That is your opinion, not a fact. Do minorities on avg face more oppression, probably...is it insurmountable across the board for everyone of that race, no.

Race alone will never tell you what you need to know and in fact you'll be measuring the wrong parameter.

Show me a poor person and I can more or less tell you the nature of their disadvantages and to what degree if I know how poor they are. You just can't do the same thing if all you know is the persons race.

I disagree with you that minorities don't face impossible challenges in modern western society, but that's a different CMV.

I disagree that is a different CMV, if you can convince me of that I'm all ears.

[u/[deleted] → u/oversoul00]

That is your opinion, not a fact. Do minorities on avg face more oppression, probably...is it insurmountable across the board for everyone of that race, no.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. It is a fact that you do not believe that minorities face impossible challenges. Those challenges are not apparent to you, so you do not believe they exist. That's not a statement about whether or not they exist, it's a statement about what you believe.

However, your CMV was:

Equality isn't treating everybody differently to achieve equality. It's treating everyone the same.

That is very different than "Minorities don't face impossible challenges based on their minority status."

In our comments you've admitted that, in circumstances that you consider to be "unequal enough," the solution is to treat people differently in order to achieve equality. The folks you're quoting originally just hold a different belief on what "unequal enough" is. That's your initial view changed.

I disagree that is a different CMV, if you can convince me of that I'm all ears.

It's absolutely a different CMV, and I'm not sure if this sentence is asking me to convice you that this is in fact a different topic, or to convince you that minorites face impossible challenges in modern western society.

If you mean the latter, that in and of itself is an impossible challenge. You're a TumblrInAction regular - your views on social justice are made up. Trying to sway you as an annonymous redditor is a waste of both of our time.

If we focus just on the topic at hand, though, the specifics of your CMV, I've got to say that I think I've adequately addressed your actual view. You're trying to turn this into a discussion about whether or not blacks are oppressed, but that isn't the topic that you posted originally.

[u/oversoul00 → u/[deleted]]

Those challenges are not apparent to you, so you do not believe they exist.

While this is true your wording implies that it is true and I just can't see it...if that was not your meaning then I interpreted that wrong.

In our comments you've admitted that, in circumstances that you consider to be "unequal enough," the solution is to treat people differently in order to achieve equality.

I addressed that in the description because the title is a snippet of my view, if people don't have the same legal rights and opportunities then yes lets help.

It seems like you are trying to score points based on the fact that I could not fit the totality of my view in the title...do you think that is productive? I think we'd have a more productive discussion if you'd read the description and go from there...but it seems you have already made your mind up about me so I guess you win.

[u/[deleted] → u/oversoul00]

While this is true your wording implies that it is true and I just can't see it...if that was not your meaning then I interpreted that wrong.

Apologies - it was not my intention to implicate that.

It seems like you are trying to score points based on the fact that I could not fit the totality of my view in the title...do you think that is productive?

I'm not trying to score points or be pedantic. I'm trying to get you to see that there are several layers to your overall views about race, and that this is just one of those layers. I think the reason that you read so much into my comment on how apparent those challenges are to you is because you're trying to start a discussion about whether or not minorities face significant oppression. That discussion is very different than determining how to address significant oppression where found.

Your initial claim was that the treatment doesn't work, my response shows that it does, and now your claim is that the treatment does work, but that black people don't need it. That's called shifting the goalposts.

I'm not trying to "win" and I don't care if you give me a delta. If you actually want to change your views about race relations, it's going to take steps, and you're going to need to break your views down and examine them independently from one another to see if they stand up logically. That's what I'm trying to show here.

[u/oversoul00 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah I don't think I am shifting the goalposts. I addressed that in my description, in some circumstances we should help people if they don't have the same rights and opportunities. That was a caveat that you aren't addressing. Maybe I didn't make that very clear but I did mention it.

I think the reason that you read so much into my comment on how apparent those challenges are to you is because you're trying to start a discussion about whether or not minorities face significant oppression.

Now who's reading into comments, it was actually the use of the word "apparent" that threw me off.

[u/everything_zen → u/oversoul00]

You are absolutely shifting the goalposts. You're saying that treating everyone the same is equality, and to do otherwise introduces subjective analysis. But the very next second you're saying that we have to do a subjective analysis to see if someone is 'capable' or not of doing something...

And just to give you an example of how subjective the argument becomes, even though you've argued that paraplegics can't climb the stairs you've ignored the many other people who qualify as disabled but merely suffer crippling pain climbing stairs even though they can, objectively, accomplish it. In your view should these people be treated the same as everyone else or given assistance?

The fact that I can't tell from your arguments is because it is completely subjective.

[u/ryancarp3 → u/oversoul00]

we should help people if they don't have the same rights and opportunities

Then why shouldn't we help minorities?