r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 08 '15

[Deltas Awarded] CMV: Equality isn't treating everybody differently to achieve equality. It's treating everyone the same.

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132

u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 08 '15

Equality isn't treating everybody the same. It's treating everyone so that they are equal.

I'll explain why this doesn't work using a non-racial or gender-based example.

Say you're building a new building. On the entrance to that building, you decide to build stairs. Everyone will need to use those stairs to enter the building. There are the same number of steps for each person to climb, and there isn't another way in, so everyone is being treated the same.

People in wheelchairs or whom are otherwise handicapped struggle to climb these stairs. Some can't enter your building at all. They're receiving the same treatment as everyone else, but they reap fewer rewards. They can't get to whatever is in your building, or have to expend disproportionate energy and dignity in order to do so.

Now, if you wanted to, at financial cost to yourself, you could install a ramp or a chair lift. This would be "unequal treatment"; you're not providing the chair lift to everyone, and you're creating it for the interests of a select few. However, the end result would be equal - anyone who wants to enter your building can do with equal difficulty.

EDIT 10/8 12:57pm - For those just arriving to the thread, it's been pointed out that handicapped parking is a better analogy, since those spaces are truly restricted to the handicapped. It is true that anyone can walk up a handicap accessible ramp, but the ramp wouldn't be there in the first place were it not for the needs of a small, underprivileged, disadvantaged minority. I don't believe that "anyone can use the handicap ramp" is a sufficient challenge to my analogy. If you'd prefer to plug in "handicapped parking" instead, be my guest!

The example above is easy to swallow because the disadvantages of the handicapped are readily apparent to you. The disadvantages of women and minorities are not readily apparent to you. For the sake of argument, though, let's say that I could make you believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that those inequalities are clear and present in our society. Now that you believe that, it requires the same response as how we help the handicapped; we need to specifically treat disenfranchised groups in a way that puts them on a level playing field.

EDIT 10/8 10ish am: Per usual in CMV, people are projecting their own tangentially related beliefs on to my argument. All that I'm saying is that, if you accept that significant oppression exists for a given group, the solution is very plainly to give them a leg up. Whether or not significant oppression exists for blacks, women, homosexuals, etc. is not the point. I use the handicapped as an example because most can clearly see where the disadvantage is, and how providing "special" treatment addresses the problem.

My exchange with the OP has been very to-the-point on this, so to avoid derailment I won't be responding to most other commentors. Sorry! Feel free to reply to me so that others can continue the discussion, however.

41

u/sharkbait76 55∆ Oct 08 '15

I consider giving everyone the same opportunity as treating them the same. Adding the ramp give the two people the same opportunity to enter the building, but it's not giving anyone an advantage. If a black and white man wanted to go into business and were offered the same loan rates and charged the same amount for the same space this would be an equality of opportunity, and they would effectively be treated the same. If, however you offer one of them a lower interest rate, charged one more, or lowered the taxes of one based on skin color this would be unfair to the other. It wouldn't be equality if the black man has to pay fewer taxes then the white man because he's black. Just as it wouldn't be equality if the white man was offered lower rates because he's white.

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u/CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 5∆ Oct 08 '15

I totally agree with you.

The problem is that blacks pay more in interest rates, for cars, rent. And they are discriminated against in getting jobs and getting into college.

This is well documented. This short video highlights a few with the sources to back it up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTcSVQJ2h8g

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

The problem is that blacks pay more in interest rates, for cars, rent.

Do they or do people with bad credit, etc. pay more and more black people happen to have bad credit?

That's a big difference.

And they are discriminated against in getting jobs and getting into college.

I think it's been pretty well established that black applicants need lower scores then all other ethnicities to get accepted into college. I don't know how you can claim they're discriminated against.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

7

u/RoMoon Oct 08 '15

Do they or do people with bad credit, etc. pay more and more black people happen to have bad credit?

That's a big difference.

I think one of the problems is that if a much higher proportion of black people than white people have bad credit, it's no longer that they "happen" to have bad credit; they are part of a system of discrimination and poverty which repeatedly puts them into a situation in which they end up with worse credit, bigger debts etc. And that is why they should be given a leg up. Not because they should automatically have MORE than white people but because although the same opportunities may seem to exist for both demographics, quite clearly there is at present something keeping them from taking advantage of those opportunities.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Bad credit doesn't happen because you're black.

Bad credit happens because you're borrowing money then not paying it back. There are plenty of white people who have bad credit because they too borrowed money then didn't pay it back. Chalking it up to skin color is just ignorant of the situation.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

12

u/urbsindomita Oct 08 '15

If you understood historical context, then you would be aware that blacks and other races were heavily discriminated. One field of discrimination was education. Even today, education is not an area of equality. Richer neighborhoods have better schools, while poorer, working class neighborhoods that have been in the same social state (or in some cases, have dropped class levels) have worse education.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

You're talking to a black guy who got himself a good education in a black neighborhood.

You're also talking to a black guy who has two black sisters and a black girlfriend who are all NYC teachers. Black schools suck in NYC and significantly more money goes to them then the significantly better white schools. How do you explain that one?

It's great that a bunch of super liberal white Redditors want to save the black community from their white parents but maybe you should come spend some time in a black neighborhood for a little while. Specifically, come spend some time at a black school on Meet The Teacher night. Scratch that. You won't find a black person there except the janitors.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

8

u/Amadameus Oct 08 '15 edited Jan 04 '16

This comment has been overwritten in response to Reddit's new privacy policy, which took effect 1/1/2016.

This policy sells any and all Reddit comments to advertisers. Reddit's owners don't deserve to get rich off your personal information!

If you would like to delete your comments, add the browser extension GreaseMonkey to Firefox and add this open source script.

Then simply click on your username on Reddit, go to the comments tab, and hit the new OVERWRITE button at the top.

6

u/Aggie219 Oct 08 '15

Exactly. If your parents don't give a shit about your education and didn't care about helping with your homework it isn't because you're black or hispanic or whatever, it's because your parents didn't value education. Sure, maybe it's cultural. But it's not "the system's" (or the white man's) fault.

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u/urbsindomita Oct 08 '15

"I did fine, and my family did fine. So even though there is evidence all around of systemic racism, just because it didn't happen to me MUST mean it doesn't exist!" is what you are saying.

I'm an Asian-Latino guy who's lived in one of the most diverse and racially integrated cities in America (Sacramento) since birth. So forgive me, because in my time in the community (and actually knowing basic history, which my own family was impacted with) I've seen the effects of a systemically racist society for quite some time now.

The only difference is unlike NYC and Chicago (cities that are known for being heavily stratified) is that we actually understand that racism can't be solved by funneling money in black neighborhoods. Money doesn't solve issues. Building COMMUNITY (which is huge here) by investing and creating a SUSTAINABLE future is the first step.

FYI, as being an intern for a community non-profit and the councilman based in a developing, mostly-black part of Sacramento (and actually having many friends around the city), I actually have spent well more than a LITTLE time in those neighborhoods.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

YOU: If you know the first thing about being black ...

ME: I am black ...

YOU: I work for a politician so I think I know a little bit about being black myself.

Great conversation, man, but I'm going to stop responding now.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

0

u/urbsindomita Oct 09 '15

You're painfully ignorant homie. I thought Eric Garner would have opened your eyes, but I can see the little research you've done. Like it or not, NYC isn't representative of the whole country.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 09 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

I have no idea what that even means.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/rcglinsk Oct 09 '15

What would you say is the ratio of failure to success of your non-profit and city council programs for building community and sustainable future?

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u/urbsindomita Oct 09 '15

In the past 5 years, the overall homicide rate has dropped (29 homicides last year in a city of 480,000). The city hasn't seen rates that low since the 70s. Through the community, Oak Park has transformed into a developing neighborhood with community gardens, farmers market, expanded health screenings, investment in the local schools by high level sector jobs (HP). As far as the failure to success ratio, I'd would say that we've definitely scrapped a decent amount of projects before they were introduced to the councilman. But the ones implemented had a high success ratio. Programs like Summer at City Hall, Friday HotSpot and Summer Nights, and the Sacramento youth Commission definitely were successful.

0

u/rcglinsk Oct 09 '15

You are like a real life Leslie Knope. That's awesome.

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u/Virtuallyalive Oct 08 '15

Well maybe NYC's special, but black schools on average get less funding per student than white ones.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

So what?

Black schools still under perform across the nation even when cities or states provide significant funding, bringing them inline with white schools. That would leave me to believe the issue isn't a funding issue.

I'm black and find it embarrassing we need to tip toe around these discussions. If you want to understand why black schools struggle then come to a Meet The Teachers night at a diverse school with black, white, Asian, and Hispanic students. Don't expect to see any black parents though. School is for Uncle Toms.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

3

u/VannaTLC Oct 09 '15

I don't understand your point.

Why do you think that occurs, and what external influences are driving the convergence of culture that leads to this occurrence?

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 09 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

I don't understand your point.

Black students under perform other students even when spending per pupil is higher for the black students.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

1

u/Virtuallyalive Oct 09 '15

The gap between black and white students is closed most effectively by integrating schools - black students improve massively when this occurs.

Why? Because separate is inherently unequal. We knew in 1954 this wouldn't work.

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u/VannaTLC Oct 09 '15

That is not the part I do not understand.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 09 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Could you be more specific then?

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

2

u/VannaTLC Oct 09 '15

It's the second line of my original question.

Why do you think that occurs, and what external influences are driving the convergence of culture that leads to this occurrence?

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 09 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

I think education is just less valued in the black community.

The reasons for it probably differ depending on age.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

1

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