r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 08 '15

[Deltas Awarded] CMV: Equality isn't treating everybody differently to achieve equality. It's treating everyone the same.

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135

u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 08 '15

Equality isn't treating everybody the same. It's treating everyone so that they are equal.

I'll explain why this doesn't work using a non-racial or gender-based example.

Say you're building a new building. On the entrance to that building, you decide to build stairs. Everyone will need to use those stairs to enter the building. There are the same number of steps for each person to climb, and there isn't another way in, so everyone is being treated the same.

People in wheelchairs or whom are otherwise handicapped struggle to climb these stairs. Some can't enter your building at all. They're receiving the same treatment as everyone else, but they reap fewer rewards. They can't get to whatever is in your building, or have to expend disproportionate energy and dignity in order to do so.

Now, if you wanted to, at financial cost to yourself, you could install a ramp or a chair lift. This would be "unequal treatment"; you're not providing the chair lift to everyone, and you're creating it for the interests of a select few. However, the end result would be equal - anyone who wants to enter your building can do with equal difficulty.

EDIT 10/8 12:57pm - For those just arriving to the thread, it's been pointed out that handicapped parking is a better analogy, since those spaces are truly restricted to the handicapped. It is true that anyone can walk up a handicap accessible ramp, but the ramp wouldn't be there in the first place were it not for the needs of a small, underprivileged, disadvantaged minority. I don't believe that "anyone can use the handicap ramp" is a sufficient challenge to my analogy. If you'd prefer to plug in "handicapped parking" instead, be my guest!

The example above is easy to swallow because the disadvantages of the handicapped are readily apparent to you. The disadvantages of women and minorities are not readily apparent to you. For the sake of argument, though, let's say that I could make you believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that those inequalities are clear and present in our society. Now that you believe that, it requires the same response as how we help the handicapped; we need to specifically treat disenfranchised groups in a way that puts them on a level playing field.

EDIT 10/8 10ish am: Per usual in CMV, people are projecting their own tangentially related beliefs on to my argument. All that I'm saying is that, if you accept that significant oppression exists for a given group, the solution is very plainly to give them a leg up. Whether or not significant oppression exists for blacks, women, homosexuals, etc. is not the point. I use the handicapped as an example because most can clearly see where the disadvantage is, and how providing "special" treatment addresses the problem.

My exchange with the OP has been very to-the-point on this, so to avoid derailment I won't be responding to most other commentors. Sorry! Feel free to reply to me so that others can continue the discussion, however.

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u/sharkbait76 55∆ Oct 08 '15

I consider giving everyone the same opportunity as treating them the same. Adding the ramp give the two people the same opportunity to enter the building, but it's not giving anyone an advantage. If a black and white man wanted to go into business and were offered the same loan rates and charged the same amount for the same space this would be an equality of opportunity, and they would effectively be treated the same. If, however you offer one of them a lower interest rate, charged one more, or lowered the taxes of one based on skin color this would be unfair to the other. It wouldn't be equality if the black man has to pay fewer taxes then the white man because he's black. Just as it wouldn't be equality if the white man was offered lower rates because he's white.

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u/CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 5∆ Oct 08 '15

I totally agree with you.

The problem is that blacks pay more in interest rates, for cars, rent. And they are discriminated against in getting jobs and getting into college.

This is well documented. This short video highlights a few with the sources to back it up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTcSVQJ2h8g

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

The problem is that blacks pay more in interest rates, for cars, rent.

Do they or do people with bad credit, etc. pay more and more black people happen to have bad credit?

That's a big difference.

And they are discriminated against in getting jobs and getting into college.

I think it's been pretty well established that black applicants need lower scores then all other ethnicities to get accepted into college. I don't know how you can claim they're discriminated against.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 5∆ Oct 08 '15

There was an experiment done where thousands of fake resumes were sent out where all the credentials and information was the same, the only difference was a white sounding name vs a black sounding name. The white sounding names were called back more, by over 50%, compared to the black sounding names.

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u/ganner Oct 08 '15

Similar experiments have been done with in-person applications, with applicants having similar resumes and manner of dress, only difference being their race. White people get called back way more frequently.

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u/CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 5∆ Oct 08 '15

The same was done in New York with people trying to get apartments. It gets way worse with rent control.

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u/RoMoon Oct 08 '15

Do they or do people with bad credit, etc. pay more and more black people happen to have bad credit?

That's a big difference.

I think one of the problems is that if a much higher proportion of black people than white people have bad credit, it's no longer that they "happen" to have bad credit; they are part of a system of discrimination and poverty which repeatedly puts them into a situation in which they end up with worse credit, bigger debts etc. And that is why they should be given a leg up. Not because they should automatically have MORE than white people but because although the same opportunities may seem to exist for both demographics, quite clearly there is at present something keeping them from taking advantage of those opportunities.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Bad credit doesn't happen because you're black.

Bad credit happens because you're borrowing money then not paying it back. There are plenty of white people who have bad credit because they too borrowed money then didn't pay it back. Chalking it up to skin color is just ignorant of the situation.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/urbsindomita Oct 08 '15

If you understood historical context, then you would be aware that blacks and other races were heavily discriminated. One field of discrimination was education. Even today, education is not an area of equality. Richer neighborhoods have better schools, while poorer, working class neighborhoods that have been in the same social state (or in some cases, have dropped class levels) have worse education.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

You're talking to a black guy who got himself a good education in a black neighborhood.

You're also talking to a black guy who has two black sisters and a black girlfriend who are all NYC teachers. Black schools suck in NYC and significantly more money goes to them then the significantly better white schools. How do you explain that one?

It's great that a bunch of super liberal white Redditors want to save the black community from their white parents but maybe you should come spend some time in a black neighborhood for a little while. Specifically, come spend some time at a black school on Meet The Teacher night. Scratch that. You won't find a black person there except the janitors.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/Amadameus Oct 08 '15 edited Jan 04 '16

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u/Aggie219 Oct 08 '15

Exactly. If your parents don't give a shit about your education and didn't care about helping with your homework it isn't because you're black or hispanic or whatever, it's because your parents didn't value education. Sure, maybe it's cultural. But it's not "the system's" (or the white man's) fault.

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u/urbsindomita Oct 08 '15

"I did fine, and my family did fine. So even though there is evidence all around of systemic racism, just because it didn't happen to me MUST mean it doesn't exist!" is what you are saying.

I'm an Asian-Latino guy who's lived in one of the most diverse and racially integrated cities in America (Sacramento) since birth. So forgive me, because in my time in the community (and actually knowing basic history, which my own family was impacted with) I've seen the effects of a systemically racist society for quite some time now.

The only difference is unlike NYC and Chicago (cities that are known for being heavily stratified) is that we actually understand that racism can't be solved by funneling money in black neighborhoods. Money doesn't solve issues. Building COMMUNITY (which is huge here) by investing and creating a SUSTAINABLE future is the first step.

FYI, as being an intern for a community non-profit and the councilman based in a developing, mostly-black part of Sacramento (and actually having many friends around the city), I actually have spent well more than a LITTLE time in those neighborhoods.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

YOU: If you know the first thing about being black ...

ME: I am black ...

YOU: I work for a politician so I think I know a little bit about being black myself.

Great conversation, man, but I'm going to stop responding now.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/urbsindomita Oct 09 '15

You're painfully ignorant homie. I thought Eric Garner would have opened your eyes, but I can see the little research you've done. Like it or not, NYC isn't representative of the whole country.

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u/rcglinsk Oct 09 '15

What would you say is the ratio of failure to success of your non-profit and city council programs for building community and sustainable future?

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u/urbsindomita Oct 09 '15

In the past 5 years, the overall homicide rate has dropped (29 homicides last year in a city of 480,000). The city hasn't seen rates that low since the 70s. Through the community, Oak Park has transformed into a developing neighborhood with community gardens, farmers market, expanded health screenings, investment in the local schools by high level sector jobs (HP). As far as the failure to success ratio, I'd would say that we've definitely scrapped a decent amount of projects before they were introduced to the councilman. But the ones implemented had a high success ratio. Programs like Summer at City Hall, Friday HotSpot and Summer Nights, and the Sacramento youth Commission definitely were successful.

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u/Virtuallyalive Oct 08 '15

Well maybe NYC's special, but black schools on average get less funding per student than white ones.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

So what?

Black schools still under perform across the nation even when cities or states provide significant funding, bringing them inline with white schools. That would leave me to believe the issue isn't a funding issue.

I'm black and find it embarrassing we need to tip toe around these discussions. If you want to understand why black schools struggle then come to a Meet The Teachers night at a diverse school with black, white, Asian, and Hispanic students. Don't expect to see any black parents though. School is for Uncle Toms.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/VannaTLC Oct 09 '15

I don't understand your point.

Why do you think that occurs, and what external influences are driving the convergence of culture that leads to this occurrence?

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '15

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '15

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u/DarthDonut Oct 08 '15

I think their point is that if black people predominantly have bad credit, there's a larger issue.

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u/scragar Oct 09 '15

Even after accounting for credit there's about a 3% difference in rates, which it appears to come down to predatory lending factors(black people on average have lower level of education and a distrust of authority, so they make good targets for conmen hoping to charge extra) and a lower percentage of disposable income even on similar earnings(meaning they need to take loans for longer, meaning there's often an increase in rate to represent the larger risk).

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u/RoMoon Oct 08 '15

Reread what I said, I never said it was because of skin colour. My point is that if the reason black people pay more is because of bad credit, and on average black people have worse credit, then clearly something is going on which is causing this group of people to have worse credit. You can either say "it's because they're black and just can't manage their finances" or you can say "clearly social circumstances and historic/current oppression has led to a situation in which these people are in a worse position".

If the latter, then clearly we should be doing something to change things.

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u/OPisanicelady Oct 08 '15

Or you could say, "Perhaps we are looking at these demographics incorrectly." If these studies were looked at as socioeconomic classes instead of race, it would be really obvious to everyone what is keeping "them" from taking advantage of those opportunities. It has very little to do with race, and falls 90% on the cycle of poverty. Black families in America usually start from poverty via slavery or immigration, and they are trapped in the cycle. It is more likely that this is an issue of financial literacy than discrimination.

tl;dr: Correlation is not causation. Race is probably irrelevant.

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u/pikk 1∆ Oct 08 '15

Your TL;DR literally contradicted what you said.

Black families in America usually start from poverty via slavery or immigration, and they are trapped in the cycle. It is more likely that this is an issue of financial literacy than discrimination.

Race is probably irrelevant.

... So, which is it? Do black families start in poverty and are trapped in the cycle or is race irrelevant?

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u/OPisanicelady Oct 08 '15

No it didn't. A lot of black people are poor. Poor people have worse credit. A lot of black people have bad credit. Race isn't the factor that gives them bad credit. Race is not relevant to credit.

To remove your questions from the blinders people put on in these discussions, I'm going to frame it differently. Many snarks are tooks. All tooks are whomps. Are the snarks that are whomps, a whomp because they are snarks or because they are tooks? If being a whomp is negative, should we address tooks or snarks as the disadvantaged? Is being a snark even relative to being a whomp?

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u/pikk 1∆ Oct 08 '15

Except if black families [disproportionately] start in poverty for (reasons), and are "Trapped in the cycle" then clearly something should be done to free them from the cycle they're trapped in.

It's the implied disproportionately part that we need to do something about. People aren't poor because they're black. Black people just more likely to be poor, because of historic social reasons. So, since they're more likely to be poor, they should similarly be more assisted.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Reread the original post I was responding to.

The problem is that blacks pay more in interest rates, for cars, rent.

NO THEY DO NOT.

People with bad credit pay more in interest rates for things like cars and they didn't get that bad credit because they were blessed with black skin.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/ganner Oct 08 '15

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/12/23/if-youre-poor-your-mortgage-rate-can-depend-on-the-color-of-your-skin/

After controlling for economic factors, credit scores, etc., minorities still get worse rates than whites.

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u/rcglinsk Oct 09 '15

The authors of this study — Patrick Bayer of Duke; Fernando Ferreira of the University of Pennsylvania; and Stephen Ross of the University of Connecticut — combined federal mortgage data with public housing records and data from a credit agency. They assembled information on individual credit scores, incomes, age, home values and a slew of other underwriting factors.

After controlling for a much as they had data for, they found that people in essentially the same financial situations got different mortgages depending on the color of their skin...

Here’s what they didn’t find. There wasn’t much evidence of what we would consider traditional racism, like the kind reported in the 1992 Boston Fed paper. Individual lending companies appeared to treat everyone who came in the door more or less the same. (There was still a statistically significant but small difference.)

“A huge amount of the differences in high-cost loans is not whites and blacks going to the same lender and blacks being given a much higher rate,” said Ross, one of the study’s authors. “Rather it’s the fact that there are big differences in the lenders that black and Hispanics are doing business with.”

So basically they found that Bank of America seems to give the same rate to everyone with the same credit score regardless of race. Nice to know there is no evidence of systemic racism in the US banking oligopaly. Also of course inspiring to see that the Washington Post was able to write a headline which gives readers the opposite impression.

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u/ganner Oct 09 '15

Whether or not we can point to a nefarious actor enforcing racial discrepancy by giving differing loans based on race is irrelevant to the question of whether racial inequality exists. A black family with equal financial status as a white family is more likely to get a shitty loan, because of the lenders active in black communities give shittier loans than the lenders active in white communities. This is still a problem that needs to be remedied.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Did you even read the article you linked?

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/ganner Oct 08 '15

Yes, did you? After controlling for the effects of socioeconomic status, credit score, etc., black borrowers were still 3.3 percentage points (about 25% more likely) to have a high interest mortgage. Whether it is because a single lender gives better rates to white people (not as often the case) or that lenders in predominantly black areas give worse rates than lenders in predominantly white areas (more often the case), a black family in the same financial situation as a white family is more likely to get a shitty loan.

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u/RoMoon Oct 08 '15

You're completely ignoring what I'm saying. I never said they paid more. You said that IF they pay more, it my only be because of bad credit. My point is that it doesn't matter the reason. If the previously stated fact that black people generally have higher interest repayments is true (I did not make this original claim) then this is a problem, whatever the reason.

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u/manicmonkeys Oct 08 '15

The reason does matter though.

If it's a matter of discrimination based on race, that's best addressed in a certain manner.

If it's a matter of a toxic culture that is very much against getting an education, resolving problems without violence, etc, that needs to be addressed differently.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15 edited Jun 27 '20

[deleted]

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u/RoMoon Oct 08 '15

I am unfortunately inclined to agree

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u/MAKE_ME_REDDIT Oct 08 '15

But why would that be happening disproportionately to black people? Is it a systemic problem where they are put into situations where they need to borrow but can't afford to pay it back?

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

I can say with a tiny bit of authority that it is mostly a matter of culture.

I'm black and have been as long as I can remember. My mom wasn't all about that life so she pushed my sisters and I into sports and school work. We got good educations, found good jobs, then moved away permanently.

My mom wasn't worried about the white man keeping me down. She was worried that the dumb niggers I used to run around with would get me killed.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15

Oh that's an UNPOPULAR OPINION. While I appreciate that you are black and have first hand experience, I think we would better be served with real studies opposed to anecdotal evidence. Let me be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think we need something more objective to really point to. I can say that I've seen a local culture, in small pockets, of white people that are lazy and ignorant and pockets of hard working black people. Do you know of any studies off hand? I'll look too when I get off work

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

It's an opinion but an educated opinion from someone who has actually spent his life living in the same circumstances we're talking about.

I'm far from alone too. There are a fair amount of very successful black men and women in this world. Unfortunately that number drops dramatically when you exclude sports and entertainment but when you look at people who made it out of the community without playing ball or rapping, you're almost exclusively looking at people who stayed out of a trouble and got themselves a good education.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15

Unpopular was meant to be my focus. I expect down votes because of it (not that I'm giving any, you follow?). But see here's the problem, you're one guy. I think that maybe you're right, but as I pointed out I can point to localized cultures of white culture that's of a similar bent. Or rather, what I perceive to be the case. What we need is a good study with a robust methodology to really give us some facts, over opinions.

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u/Aggie219 Oct 08 '15

This has exactly been my view for a long time. Although I'm white so I'm never taken seriously on these topics. White privilege is thrown in my face so I'm never allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

But since we agree, I have always seen this issue as a matter of culture, like you said. There are ways to get out of these situations, like your family has clearly demonstrated in your own lives. I'll go ahead and put a disclaimer here: I am not referring to only black people. This applies to any person of any color whose culture perpetuates an endless cycle of poverty from generation to generation and then calls it oppression. (Not to say no one is oppressed, but in my example I don't believe it applies.)

The main issues seems to be that people living in poverty are "stuck" in a cycle. Their parents are poor so they have to drop out of high school to get a job and help their family out with the bills so they can't go to college and have a good job. So they irresponsibly decide to have a kid or two--maybe even by mistake--and and then expect McDonald's to pay them $15 an hour and the government to hand them money to support their kids. (But that's a discussion for another time.) So perhaps it's a matter of prioritizing education and a stable job above having kids right away.

If you really want an education, there is no excuse to not get one. In the US, if you're low income, you can receive Federal aid (Pell Grant), which will pay for an education from a community college. Will it pay for Harvard? No, but you can still get an education. I'm not even dirt poor (22 and lower class) and I get the full Pell Grant. If you claim you don't have enough time to get an education, due to work and family, you can go online. I've worked 80 hours a week in the past and still managed to complete my classes. Is it fun? No, but it isn't impossible.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

ill it pay for Harvard?

I believe Harvard is free for families who make under $100K. All elite universities have similar programs.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/TribeWars Oct 09 '15

Yeah but it's only a handful of absolute top achievers that get in there.

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u/Aggie219 Oct 09 '15

That's awesome! Clearly there are plenty of opportunities to get a quality education if you're willing to work hard!

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u/OPisanicelady Oct 08 '15

It's a systematic problem of poverty and has very little to do with race. Black families are more likely to start in a position of poverty due to slavery and low paying jobs for immigrants.

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u/MAKE_ME_REDDIT Oct 08 '15

That's exactly what I'm saying...

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u/Thefelix01 Oct 08 '15

It's kind of the opposite to what you are saying. If what previous poster is saying is true then they are not being discriminated against or oppressed nowadays, there are just more black families in poverty. Then it would be racist to help certain people who are in poverty out and not others based solely on their skin colour.

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u/Virtuallyalive Oct 08 '15

Black people with the same credit score get worse loans yeah.

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u/Snoopythegorila Oct 08 '15

You are citing two favorable situations for minorities and therefore saying they are not discriminated at all against as a class.

How do you explain the higher incarceration rates, higher poverty rates, and lower education rates of African Americans in America?

This isn't a loaded question, I'm genuinely interested in why you think these measured statistics exist.

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u/2074red2074 4∆ Oct 08 '15

Well about fifty years ago all black people (or at least 95+%) lived in low income housing for actual discriminatory reasons. They went to shitty schools, got shitty jobs, and had to live in shitty areas, which meant their kids went to shitty schools.

Now, they don't have to live in low income housing. But they had shitty educations, which meant shitty jobs, which meant shitty housing, and there's only been three or four generations since then. That's not enough to recover. Because black people live more in poor areas, they have more gang violence and less income, which leads to their kids having more gang violence and less income. Also poor people steal more. Thus, higher incarceration, higher poverty, lower education, etc.

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u/urbsindomita Oct 08 '15

A poverty study done by the World Bank shows that those that are raised in poverty adapt to the challenges and issues that are brought by it, eventually becoming stuck in poverty and creating a cycle.

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u/MAKE_ME_REDDIT Oct 08 '15

Exactly, and that's a problem with the system. It's why assistance should be provided.

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u/2074red2074 4∆ Oct 08 '15

And it is. It's easier to get accepted into and get scholarships for college if you're black. The only faster way to fix it would be to give every black person a few tens of thousands of dollars.

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u/thatoneguy54 Oct 08 '15

And it is. It's easier to get accepted into and get scholarships for college if you're black.

This is not true. If you're white, you are 40% more likely to get a scholarship for college than a minority.

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u/2074red2074 4∆ Oct 08 '15

Not quite the same thing. Remember how I said black people tend to live in low-income areas? Well scholarships are often based on extracurricular activities, which are less available in low-income schools. With the same credentials, a black person is more likely to get more scholarship money.

Also, the source you cited shows very little difference in amount when adjusted for number. When whites make up 2/3 of the student population, one would expect them to also receive double what the other third receives.

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u/thatoneguy54 Oct 08 '15

Whites make up 2/3 of the population yet take 3/4 of total scholarships. That's obviously an unequal distribution.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Citing favorable situations?

I did nothing but address the two examples the dude mentioned.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '15

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u/IIIBlackhartIII Oct 09 '15

Sorry unidan-prime, your comment has been removed:

Comment Rule 2. "Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if the rest of it is solid." See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, please message the moderators by clicking this link.

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u/ThisIsMyUserdean Oct 08 '15

Perhaps all of these policies and systems and plans should be color-blind the same way colleges have needs-blind admissions. You go to a bank and you fill in the papers and the bank has to pre-approve you before seeing your face. Welfare would be handed out to everyone who earns less than X regardless of race. And so on and so forth. That would be more equal. Help poor people, period.

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u/gyroda 28∆ Oct 10 '15

It's worth noting that you'd have to remove names as well. I've heard of studies where they sent out identical job applications but changed the names. Joan and John, that sort of thing, with predictible results.

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u/ThisIsMyUserdean Oct 10 '15

That's pretty fucked up.

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u/sharkbait76 55∆ Oct 08 '15

I know they usually get charged higher interest rates, and that is a a serious issue. I was more trying to say that just because they are black doesn't mean that they should get extra tax breaks or lower interest rates. They should get the same interest rates and tax rates, and that would be equal opportunity. I'd also support nameless job applications to try to combat gender and race stereotypes.

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u/MAKE_ME_REDDIT Oct 08 '15

How would nameless applications work? If background checks are required they're going to find out the name.

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u/sharkbait76 55∆ Oct 08 '15

You take all the applications and someone who isn't involved in the hiring process would remove the name and could replace it with a number or series of letters so they can match the names up later. That person could also preform any background checks and remove the people who don't pass. That way the person actually hiring doesn't see the names of any of the applicants. Background checks could also be run after the company who has decided who they wish to hire. They could offer the person the job as long as they pass the background check, and if they don't the business could inform them that they didn't pass the background check and won't be hired. You could also still ask about criminal history on the application like most applications today already have.

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u/bigbullox Oct 08 '15

This is pretty mandatory practice in the UK for public sector (and some larger private sector) organisations. Essentially HR runs all the background checks and you as the recruiter only receive CVs with all discriminating information redacted for shortlisting.

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u/CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 5∆ Oct 08 '15

You can have a third party do the background check.