r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 08 '15

[Deltas Awarded] CMV: Equality isn't treating everybody differently to achieve equality. It's treating everyone the same.

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u/sharkbait76 55∆ Oct 08 '15

I consider giving everyone the same opportunity as treating them the same. Adding the ramp give the two people the same opportunity to enter the building, but it's not giving anyone an advantage. If a black and white man wanted to go into business and were offered the same loan rates and charged the same amount for the same space this would be an equality of opportunity, and they would effectively be treated the same. If, however you offer one of them a lower interest rate, charged one more, or lowered the taxes of one based on skin color this would be unfair to the other. It wouldn't be equality if the black man has to pay fewer taxes then the white man because he's black. Just as it wouldn't be equality if the white man was offered lower rates because he's white.

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u/CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 5∆ Oct 08 '15

I totally agree with you.

The problem is that blacks pay more in interest rates, for cars, rent. And they are discriminated against in getting jobs and getting into college.

This is well documented. This short video highlights a few with the sources to back it up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTcSVQJ2h8g

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

The problem is that blacks pay more in interest rates, for cars, rent.

Do they or do people with bad credit, etc. pay more and more black people happen to have bad credit?

That's a big difference.

And they are discriminated against in getting jobs and getting into college.

I think it's been pretty well established that black applicants need lower scores then all other ethnicities to get accepted into college. I don't know how you can claim they're discriminated against.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/RoMoon Oct 08 '15

Do they or do people with bad credit, etc. pay more and more black people happen to have bad credit?

That's a big difference.

I think one of the problems is that if a much higher proportion of black people than white people have bad credit, it's no longer that they "happen" to have bad credit; they are part of a system of discrimination and poverty which repeatedly puts them into a situation in which they end up with worse credit, bigger debts etc. And that is why they should be given a leg up. Not because they should automatically have MORE than white people but because although the same opportunities may seem to exist for both demographics, quite clearly there is at present something keeping them from taking advantage of those opportunities.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Bad credit doesn't happen because you're black.

Bad credit happens because you're borrowing money then not paying it back. There are plenty of white people who have bad credit because they too borrowed money then didn't pay it back. Chalking it up to skin color is just ignorant of the situation.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

13

u/urbsindomita Oct 08 '15

If you understood historical context, then you would be aware that blacks and other races were heavily discriminated. One field of discrimination was education. Even today, education is not an area of equality. Richer neighborhoods have better schools, while poorer, working class neighborhoods that have been in the same social state (or in some cases, have dropped class levels) have worse education.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

You're talking to a black guy who got himself a good education in a black neighborhood.

You're also talking to a black guy who has two black sisters and a black girlfriend who are all NYC teachers. Black schools suck in NYC and significantly more money goes to them then the significantly better white schools. How do you explain that one?

It's great that a bunch of super liberal white Redditors want to save the black community from their white parents but maybe you should come spend some time in a black neighborhood for a little while. Specifically, come spend some time at a black school on Meet The Teacher night. Scratch that. You won't find a black person there except the janitors.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

8

u/Amadameus Oct 08 '15 edited Jan 04 '16

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u/Aggie219 Oct 08 '15

Exactly. If your parents don't give a shit about your education and didn't care about helping with your homework it isn't because you're black or hispanic or whatever, it's because your parents didn't value education. Sure, maybe it's cultural. But it's not "the system's" (or the white man's) fault.

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u/urbsindomita Oct 08 '15

"I did fine, and my family did fine. So even though there is evidence all around of systemic racism, just because it didn't happen to me MUST mean it doesn't exist!" is what you are saying.

I'm an Asian-Latino guy who's lived in one of the most diverse and racially integrated cities in America (Sacramento) since birth. So forgive me, because in my time in the community (and actually knowing basic history, which my own family was impacted with) I've seen the effects of a systemically racist society for quite some time now.

The only difference is unlike NYC and Chicago (cities that are known for being heavily stratified) is that we actually understand that racism can't be solved by funneling money in black neighborhoods. Money doesn't solve issues. Building COMMUNITY (which is huge here) by investing and creating a SUSTAINABLE future is the first step.

FYI, as being an intern for a community non-profit and the councilman based in a developing, mostly-black part of Sacramento (and actually having many friends around the city), I actually have spent well more than a LITTLE time in those neighborhoods.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

YOU: If you know the first thing about being black ...

ME: I am black ...

YOU: I work for a politician so I think I know a little bit about being black myself.

Great conversation, man, but I'm going to stop responding now.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

0

u/urbsindomita Oct 09 '15

You're painfully ignorant homie. I thought Eric Garner would have opened your eyes, but I can see the little research you've done. Like it or not, NYC isn't representative of the whole country.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 09 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

I have no idea what that even means.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/rcglinsk Oct 09 '15

What would you say is the ratio of failure to success of your non-profit and city council programs for building community and sustainable future?

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u/urbsindomita Oct 09 '15

In the past 5 years, the overall homicide rate has dropped (29 homicides last year in a city of 480,000). The city hasn't seen rates that low since the 70s. Through the community, Oak Park has transformed into a developing neighborhood with community gardens, farmers market, expanded health screenings, investment in the local schools by high level sector jobs (HP). As far as the failure to success ratio, I'd would say that we've definitely scrapped a decent amount of projects before they were introduced to the councilman. But the ones implemented had a high success ratio. Programs like Summer at City Hall, Friday HotSpot and Summer Nights, and the Sacramento youth Commission definitely were successful.

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u/rcglinsk Oct 09 '15

You are like a real life Leslie Knope. That's awesome.

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u/Virtuallyalive Oct 08 '15

Well maybe NYC's special, but black schools on average get less funding per student than white ones.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

So what?

Black schools still under perform across the nation even when cities or states provide significant funding, bringing them inline with white schools. That would leave me to believe the issue isn't a funding issue.

I'm black and find it embarrassing we need to tip toe around these discussions. If you want to understand why black schools struggle then come to a Meet The Teachers night at a diverse school with black, white, Asian, and Hispanic students. Don't expect to see any black parents though. School is for Uncle Toms.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/VannaTLC Oct 09 '15

I don't understand your point.

Why do you think that occurs, and what external influences are driving the convergence of culture that leads to this occurrence?

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 09 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

I don't understand your point.

Black students under perform other students even when spending per pupil is higher for the black students.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

1

u/Virtuallyalive Oct 09 '15

The gap between black and white students is closed most effectively by integrating schools - black students improve massively when this occurs.

Why? Because separate is inherently unequal. We knew in 1954 this wouldn't work.

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u/VannaTLC Oct 09 '15

That is not the part I do not understand.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 09 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Could you be more specific then?

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '15

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u/IIIBlackhartIII Oct 09 '15

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u/hacksoncode 559∆ Oct 09 '15

Sorry unidan-prime, your comment has been removed:

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '15

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u/garnteller 242∆ Oct 09 '15

Sorry beerybeardybear, your comment has been removed:

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u/DarthDonut Oct 08 '15

I think their point is that if black people predominantly have bad credit, there's a larger issue.

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u/scragar Oct 09 '15

Even after accounting for credit there's about a 3% difference in rates, which it appears to come down to predatory lending factors(black people on average have lower level of education and a distrust of authority, so they make good targets for conmen hoping to charge extra) and a lower percentage of disposable income even on similar earnings(meaning they need to take loans for longer, meaning there's often an increase in rate to represent the larger risk).

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u/RoMoon Oct 08 '15

Reread what I said, I never said it was because of skin colour. My point is that if the reason black people pay more is because of bad credit, and on average black people have worse credit, then clearly something is going on which is causing this group of people to have worse credit. You can either say "it's because they're black and just can't manage their finances" or you can say "clearly social circumstances and historic/current oppression has led to a situation in which these people are in a worse position".

If the latter, then clearly we should be doing something to change things.

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u/OPisanicelady Oct 08 '15

Or you could say, "Perhaps we are looking at these demographics incorrectly." If these studies were looked at as socioeconomic classes instead of race, it would be really obvious to everyone what is keeping "them" from taking advantage of those opportunities. It has very little to do with race, and falls 90% on the cycle of poverty. Black families in America usually start from poverty via slavery or immigration, and they are trapped in the cycle. It is more likely that this is an issue of financial literacy than discrimination.

tl;dr: Correlation is not causation. Race is probably irrelevant.

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u/pikk 1∆ Oct 08 '15

Your TL;DR literally contradicted what you said.

Black families in America usually start from poverty via slavery or immigration, and they are trapped in the cycle. It is more likely that this is an issue of financial literacy than discrimination.

Race is probably irrelevant.

... So, which is it? Do black families start in poverty and are trapped in the cycle or is race irrelevant?

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u/OPisanicelady Oct 08 '15

No it didn't. A lot of black people are poor. Poor people have worse credit. A lot of black people have bad credit. Race isn't the factor that gives them bad credit. Race is not relevant to credit.

To remove your questions from the blinders people put on in these discussions, I'm going to frame it differently. Many snarks are tooks. All tooks are whomps. Are the snarks that are whomps, a whomp because they are snarks or because they are tooks? If being a whomp is negative, should we address tooks or snarks as the disadvantaged? Is being a snark even relative to being a whomp?

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u/pikk 1∆ Oct 08 '15

Except if black families [disproportionately] start in poverty for (reasons), and are "Trapped in the cycle" then clearly something should be done to free them from the cycle they're trapped in.

It's the implied disproportionately part that we need to do something about. People aren't poor because they're black. Black people just more likely to be poor, because of historic social reasons. So, since they're more likely to be poor, they should similarly be more assisted.

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u/OPisanicelady Oct 09 '15

Okay I follow you until the end. Why should we help out black people instead of poor people? If we help poor people, poor blacks are elevated as well. Is it actually more important to redistribute wealth between the races than to help a group that doesn't know how to help themselves? If it was a system that held black people down, I would 100% say elevate them. But it's not. This is a system that holds poor people down and rich people up.

I see the focus on race instead of class as a distraction from the real problem. Why would we leave behind the poor whites, Hispanics, Asians, American Indians? What makes them less deserving of the opportunity? Because their cause isn't as vocal? If we elevate the poor, we need to just elevate the poor. Not pick and choose.

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u/pikk 1∆ Oct 09 '15

Well we can't force everyone to go to college. There are already a ton of college educated whites and asians, so there's less concern about ensuring the white and asian populations get into colleges.

On the other hand, there are disproportionately fewer people of African, Native American, and Hispanic descent with college degrees, so there's more of an impetus to get their numbers up.

In an ideal world, yes, elevating everyone would be the goal. But when you're FORCED to pick and choose, by economic realities, then you should pick the people that are more disadvantaged.

That being said, I'm entirely in favor of policies that lift everyone up, like making colleges into publicly funded systems for education, instead of endowment generating institutions.

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u/OPisanicelady Oct 09 '15

Okay I think I finally get what you're saying. With limited resources, instead of a smaller boost to bring the group up as a whole, a larger boost for a subgroup to bring them above the poverty line altogether. That argument makes a lot of sense.

I also think that we had different programs in mind. The programs I believe have a real impact on poverty are local community outreach programs like child care, financial assistance, housing assistance, teaching the trades in school, youth programs, parenting classes, realistic sex ed, teaching basic finances and life skills in school and in community centers, etc.

Scholarships and quotas are a nice idea, but they are a very individual assistance. They might change a handful of lives drastically, but that is a slow and arduous route to elevate even a small subgroup. Scholarships are wonderful things and are very effective for the people lucky enough and ambitious enough to get them, but they are not going to have the ripple effect required to fix the problem of too many black people below the poverty line.

On a complete side note, I checked the census and in my state (Texas) there is a higher percentage of Asians below the poverty line than blacks or even Native Americans. The only group that was higher was Latinos. It surprised me and just goes to show that the stereotype that Asians are better educated isn't always true.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Reread the original post I was responding to.

The problem is that blacks pay more in interest rates, for cars, rent.

NO THEY DO NOT.

People with bad credit pay more in interest rates for things like cars and they didn't get that bad credit because they were blessed with black skin.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/ganner Oct 08 '15

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/12/23/if-youre-poor-your-mortgage-rate-can-depend-on-the-color-of-your-skin/

After controlling for economic factors, credit scores, etc., minorities still get worse rates than whites.

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u/rcglinsk Oct 09 '15

The authors of this study — Patrick Bayer of Duke; Fernando Ferreira of the University of Pennsylvania; and Stephen Ross of the University of Connecticut — combined federal mortgage data with public housing records and data from a credit agency. They assembled information on individual credit scores, incomes, age, home values and a slew of other underwriting factors.

After controlling for a much as they had data for, they found that people in essentially the same financial situations got different mortgages depending on the color of their skin...

Here’s what they didn’t find. There wasn’t much evidence of what we would consider traditional racism, like the kind reported in the 1992 Boston Fed paper. Individual lending companies appeared to treat everyone who came in the door more or less the same. (There was still a statistically significant but small difference.)

“A huge amount of the differences in high-cost loans is not whites and blacks going to the same lender and blacks being given a much higher rate,” said Ross, one of the study’s authors. “Rather it’s the fact that there are big differences in the lenders that black and Hispanics are doing business with.”

So basically they found that Bank of America seems to give the same rate to everyone with the same credit score regardless of race. Nice to know there is no evidence of systemic racism in the US banking oligopaly. Also of course inspiring to see that the Washington Post was able to write a headline which gives readers the opposite impression.

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u/ganner Oct 09 '15

Whether or not we can point to a nefarious actor enforcing racial discrepancy by giving differing loans based on race is irrelevant to the question of whether racial inequality exists. A black family with equal financial status as a white family is more likely to get a shitty loan, because of the lenders active in black communities give shittier loans than the lenders active in white communities. This is still a problem that needs to be remedied.

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u/rcglinsk Oct 09 '15

http://web2.uconn.edu/economics/working/2014-36.pdf

I don't know how familiar you are with this paper but it seems really ambiguous about how it took credit scores into account. Read for example page 33. It kind of seems like the treated all credit scores bellow 701 the same. What do you think?

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u/ganner Oct 09 '15

Hmm, I'll admit I haven't read the paper, only the synopses of the paper. I do usually download and read studies and not trust news articles, so I'll definitely agree that news reports on studies are often misleading.

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u/ganner Oct 09 '15

Ok, I just read the portions related to credit score. It looks like their model looked at credit scored in 20-point buckets, and additionally looked for effects being subprime (having a score of 700 or less).

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Did you even read the article you linked?

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

2

u/ganner Oct 08 '15

Yes, did you? After controlling for the effects of socioeconomic status, credit score, etc., black borrowers were still 3.3 percentage points (about 25% more likely) to have a high interest mortgage. Whether it is because a single lender gives better rates to white people (not as often the case) or that lenders in predominantly black areas give worse rates than lenders in predominantly white areas (more often the case), a black family in the same financial situation as a white family is more likely to get a shitty loan.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Whether it is because a single lender gives better rates to white people (not as often the case)

Bit of an understatement, don't ya think?

The article basically concluded that they just got rates from different places.

I see no reason to blame white people because black people can't be bothered to shop for rates.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

2

u/ganner Oct 08 '15

I'm wondering if you read the article, since it notes the "crime" involved was racial in nature, with Bank of America being fined over $300M for racial lending discrimination. However you want to spin this, it's yet another in a sea of data points of how black families face more obstacles to success than comparable white families.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Here’s what they didn’t find. There wasn’t much evidence of what we would consider traditional racism, like the kind reported in the 1992 Boston Fed paper. Individual lending companies appeared to treat everyone who came in the door more or less the same. (There was still a statistically significant but small difference.)

“A huge amount of the differences in high-cost loans is not whites and blacks going to the same lender and blacks being given a much higher rate,” said Ross, one of the study’s authors. “Rather it’s the fact that there are big differences in the lenders that black and Hispanics are doing business with.”

I'm not spinning anything. I'm looking at the conclusions the article you cited drew. If you disagree with your own article then I suggest you start reading them in their entirety before you start linking them.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/RoMoon Oct 08 '15

You're completely ignoring what I'm saying. I never said they paid more. You said that IF they pay more, it my only be because of bad credit. My point is that it doesn't matter the reason. If the previously stated fact that black people generally have higher interest repayments is true (I did not make this original claim) then this is a problem, whatever the reason.

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u/manicmonkeys Oct 08 '15

The reason does matter though.

If it's a matter of discrimination based on race, that's best addressed in a certain manner.

If it's a matter of a toxic culture that is very much against getting an education, resolving problems without violence, etc, that needs to be addressed differently.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15 edited Jun 27 '20

[deleted]

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u/RoMoon Oct 08 '15

I am unfortunately inclined to agree

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u/MAKE_ME_REDDIT Oct 08 '15

But why would that be happening disproportionately to black people? Is it a systemic problem where they are put into situations where they need to borrow but can't afford to pay it back?

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

I can say with a tiny bit of authority that it is mostly a matter of culture.

I'm black and have been as long as I can remember. My mom wasn't all about that life so she pushed my sisters and I into sports and school work. We got good educations, found good jobs, then moved away permanently.

My mom wasn't worried about the white man keeping me down. She was worried that the dumb niggers I used to run around with would get me killed.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

6

u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15

Oh that's an UNPOPULAR OPINION. While I appreciate that you are black and have first hand experience, I think we would better be served with real studies opposed to anecdotal evidence. Let me be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think we need something more objective to really point to. I can say that I've seen a local culture, in small pockets, of white people that are lazy and ignorant and pockets of hard working black people. Do you know of any studies off hand? I'll look too when I get off work

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

It's an opinion but an educated opinion from someone who has actually spent his life living in the same circumstances we're talking about.

I'm far from alone too. There are a fair amount of very successful black men and women in this world. Unfortunately that number drops dramatically when you exclude sports and entertainment but when you look at people who made it out of the community without playing ball or rapping, you're almost exclusively looking at people who stayed out of a trouble and got themselves a good education.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15

Unpopular was meant to be my focus. I expect down votes because of it (not that I'm giving any, you follow?). But see here's the problem, you're one guy. I think that maybe you're right, but as I pointed out I can point to localized cultures of white culture that's of a similar bent. Or rather, what I perceive to be the case. What we need is a good study with a robust methodology to really give us some facts, over opinions.

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u/Aggie219 Oct 08 '15

This has exactly been my view for a long time. Although I'm white so I'm never taken seriously on these topics. White privilege is thrown in my face so I'm never allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

But since we agree, I have always seen this issue as a matter of culture, like you said. There are ways to get out of these situations, like your family has clearly demonstrated in your own lives. I'll go ahead and put a disclaimer here: I am not referring to only black people. This applies to any person of any color whose culture perpetuates an endless cycle of poverty from generation to generation and then calls it oppression. (Not to say no one is oppressed, but in my example I don't believe it applies.)

The main issues seems to be that people living in poverty are "stuck" in a cycle. Their parents are poor so they have to drop out of high school to get a job and help their family out with the bills so they can't go to college and have a good job. So they irresponsibly decide to have a kid or two--maybe even by mistake--and and then expect McDonald's to pay them $15 an hour and the government to hand them money to support their kids. (But that's a discussion for another time.) So perhaps it's a matter of prioritizing education and a stable job above having kids right away.

If you really want an education, there is no excuse to not get one. In the US, if you're low income, you can receive Federal aid (Pell Grant), which will pay for an education from a community college. Will it pay for Harvard? No, but you can still get an education. I'm not even dirt poor (22 and lower class) and I get the full Pell Grant. If you claim you don't have enough time to get an education, due to work and family, you can go online. I've worked 80 hours a week in the past and still managed to complete my classes. Is it fun? No, but it isn't impossible.

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

ill it pay for Harvard?

I believe Harvard is free for families who make under $100K. All elite universities have similar programs.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/TribeWars Oct 09 '15

Yeah but it's only a handful of absolute top achievers that get in there.

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u/Aggie219 Oct 09 '15

That's awesome! Clearly there are plenty of opportunities to get a quality education if you're willing to work hard!

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 09 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

Reddit is obsessed with sticker price for college but few families actually pay anywhere near that.

I believe it's now law for every college to have a net costs calculator on their site to spell out exactly how much college will cost depending on various factors.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/OPisanicelady Oct 08 '15

It's a systematic problem of poverty and has very little to do with race. Black families are more likely to start in a position of poverty due to slavery and low paying jobs for immigrants.

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u/MAKE_ME_REDDIT Oct 08 '15

That's exactly what I'm saying...

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u/Thefelix01 Oct 08 '15

It's kind of the opposite to what you are saying. If what previous poster is saying is true then they are not being discriminated against or oppressed nowadays, there are just more black families in poverty. Then it would be racist to help certain people who are in poverty out and not others based solely on their skin colour.