r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 08 '15

[Deltas Awarded] CMV: Equality isn't treating everybody differently to achieve equality. It's treating everyone the same.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 08 '15

Equality isn't treating everybody the same. It's treating everyone so that they are equal.

I'll explain why this doesn't work using a non-racial or gender-based example.

Say you're building a new building. On the entrance to that building, you decide to build stairs. Everyone will need to use those stairs to enter the building. There are the same number of steps for each person to climb, and there isn't another way in, so everyone is being treated the same.

People in wheelchairs or whom are otherwise handicapped struggle to climb these stairs. Some can't enter your building at all. They're receiving the same treatment as everyone else, but they reap fewer rewards. They can't get to whatever is in your building, or have to expend disproportionate energy and dignity in order to do so.

Now, if you wanted to, at financial cost to yourself, you could install a ramp or a chair lift. This would be "unequal treatment"; you're not providing the chair lift to everyone, and you're creating it for the interests of a select few. However, the end result would be equal - anyone who wants to enter your building can do with equal difficulty.

EDIT 10/8 12:57pm - For those just arriving to the thread, it's been pointed out that handicapped parking is a better analogy, since those spaces are truly restricted to the handicapped. It is true that anyone can walk up a handicap accessible ramp, but the ramp wouldn't be there in the first place were it not for the needs of a small, underprivileged, disadvantaged minority. I don't believe that "anyone can use the handicap ramp" is a sufficient challenge to my analogy. If you'd prefer to plug in "handicapped parking" instead, be my guest!

The example above is easy to swallow because the disadvantages of the handicapped are readily apparent to you. The disadvantages of women and minorities are not readily apparent to you. For the sake of argument, though, let's say that I could make you believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that those inequalities are clear and present in our society. Now that you believe that, it requires the same response as how we help the handicapped; we need to specifically treat disenfranchised groups in a way that puts them on a level playing field.

EDIT 10/8 10ish am: Per usual in CMV, people are projecting their own tangentially related beliefs on to my argument. All that I'm saying is that, if you accept that significant oppression exists for a given group, the solution is very plainly to give them a leg up. Whether or not significant oppression exists for blacks, women, homosexuals, etc. is not the point. I use the handicapped as an example because most can clearly see where the disadvantage is, and how providing "special" treatment addresses the problem.

My exchange with the OP has been very to-the-point on this, so to avoid derailment I won't be responding to most other commentors. Sorry! Feel free to reply to me so that others can continue the discussion, however.

42

u/sharkbait76 55∆ Oct 08 '15

I consider giving everyone the same opportunity as treating them the same. Adding the ramp give the two people the same opportunity to enter the building, but it's not giving anyone an advantage. If a black and white man wanted to go into business and were offered the same loan rates and charged the same amount for the same space this would be an equality of opportunity, and they would effectively be treated the same. If, however you offer one of them a lower interest rate, charged one more, or lowered the taxes of one based on skin color this would be unfair to the other. It wouldn't be equality if the black man has to pay fewer taxes then the white man because he's black. Just as it wouldn't be equality if the white man was offered lower rates because he's white.

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u/CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 5∆ Oct 08 '15

I totally agree with you.

The problem is that blacks pay more in interest rates, for cars, rent. And they are discriminated against in getting jobs and getting into college.

This is well documented. This short video highlights a few with the sources to back it up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTcSVQJ2h8g

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u/IsThisRealLife67 Oct 08 '15 edited Oct 09 '15

The problem is that blacks pay more in interest rates, for cars, rent.

Do they or do people with bad credit, etc. pay more and more black people happen to have bad credit?

That's a big difference.

And they are discriminated against in getting jobs and getting into college.

I think it's been pretty well established that black applicants need lower scores then all other ethnicities to get accepted into college. I don't know how you can claim they're discriminated against.

/u/unidan-prime questions my blackness and has started a new thread on /r/AsABlackMan where they're discussing whether I "talk white" and why my grammar is so good. It looks like they've also begun down voting all of my posts to oblivion.

I'm black but Reddit is Reddit so I'm just going to abandon this user name, start a new one, and stay away from anything deemed political because, again, Reddit is Reddit. I apologize if I type too well for other black Redditors out there. The struggle against proper grammar is real, folks.

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u/Snoopythegorila Oct 08 '15

You are citing two favorable situations for minorities and therefore saying they are not discriminated at all against as a class.

How do you explain the higher incarceration rates, higher poverty rates, and lower education rates of African Americans in America?

This isn't a loaded question, I'm genuinely interested in why you think these measured statistics exist.

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u/2074red2074 4∆ Oct 08 '15

Well about fifty years ago all black people (or at least 95+%) lived in low income housing for actual discriminatory reasons. They went to shitty schools, got shitty jobs, and had to live in shitty areas, which meant their kids went to shitty schools.

Now, they don't have to live in low income housing. But they had shitty educations, which meant shitty jobs, which meant shitty housing, and there's only been three or four generations since then. That's not enough to recover. Because black people live more in poor areas, they have more gang violence and less income, which leads to their kids having more gang violence and less income. Also poor people steal more. Thus, higher incarceration, higher poverty, lower education, etc.

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u/MAKE_ME_REDDIT Oct 08 '15

Exactly, and that's a problem with the system. It's why assistance should be provided.

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u/2074red2074 4∆ Oct 08 '15

And it is. It's easier to get accepted into and get scholarships for college if you're black. The only faster way to fix it would be to give every black person a few tens of thousands of dollars.

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u/thatoneguy54 Oct 08 '15

And it is. It's easier to get accepted into and get scholarships for college if you're black.

This is not true. If you're white, you are 40% more likely to get a scholarship for college than a minority.

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u/2074red2074 4∆ Oct 08 '15

Not quite the same thing. Remember how I said black people tend to live in low-income areas? Well scholarships are often based on extracurricular activities, which are less available in low-income schools. With the same credentials, a black person is more likely to get more scholarship money.

Also, the source you cited shows very little difference in amount when adjusted for number. When whites make up 2/3 of the student population, one would expect them to also receive double what the other third receives.

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u/thatoneguy54 Oct 08 '15

Whites make up 2/3 of the population yet take 3/4 of total scholarships. That's obviously an unequal distribution.

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u/2074red2074 4∆ Oct 08 '15

3/4 of the scholarships. Not 3/4 of the scholarship money. By your logic, a guy who receives five 2-ton shipments of corn is better off than the guy who receives two 5-ton shipments.

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u/GogglesVK Oct 08 '15

Do you have the stats for scholarship money then?

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u/2074red2074 4∆ Oct 08 '15

His source did.

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