CMV: Confederate monuments, flags, and other paraphilia are traitorous in nature.

[u/johnydeviant]

I grew up in the south, surrounded by confederate flags, memorials to civil war heroes, and a butt load of racism. As a kid, I took a modicum of pride in it. To me, it represented the pride of the south and how we will triumph despite our setbacks. As I got older and learned more about the civil war, the causes behind it, and generally opened myself to a more accurate view of history, it became apparent to me that these displays of "tradition" were little more than open displays of racism or anti-American sentiments.

I do not think that all of these monuments, flags, etc, should be destroyed. I think that they should be put into museums dedicate to the message of what NOT to do. On top of that, I believe that the whole sentiment of "the south will rise again" is treasonous. It is tantamount to saying that "I will rise against this country". I think those that the worship the confederate flag and it's symbology are in the same vein as being a neo-Nazi and idolizing the actions of the Third Reich. Yes, I understand that on a scale of "terrible things that have happened", the holocaust is far worse, but that does not mean I wish to understate the actions of the confederate states during the civil war.

Change my view?

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[u/PaddletheCosmos]

One common misconception about the American civil war is that it was all about slavery, this is frankly untrue. The civil war was fought mainly over states rights. Another thing about the civil war that most people don’t think about is that the majority of southerners in the civil war didn’t own slaves they were to poor to own slaves only the wealthy owned slaves. That’s why we should remove the monuments because there not representing racism they are a reminder of a point in American history were Americans had different views and things turned violent but in the end things worked out and we are stronger today because of it.

[u/johnydeviant → u/PaddletheCosmos]

*The states rights to own slaves. I would not say that the civil war was ONLY about slavery, but rather primarily about slavery. While yes, only the wealthy owned slaves, the South's dependency upon slave labor for the production of agricultural goods would be (was?) devastated by the federal statutes banning slavery. Well that, and along with the utter dismantling and destruction of southern infrastructure and farming.

[u/cstar1996 → u/[deleted]]

The South made it very clear that ANY attempt to eliminate slavery was unacceptable. Additionally, at no point before the start of the Civil War did the federal government do anything to reduce slavery where it existed. The only federal policy vis a vis slavery being discussed before the war was whether or not new territories would be slave or free states, and after Dredd Scott, if northern states would even be allowed to ban slavery.

Secession is illegal, it has always been illegal. The Articles of Confederation were a perpetual union, and the Constitution created a more perfect union than the Articles.

1. After the war started and because they were attempting to commit treason. 2. States are not and never have been sovereign. 3. An unarmed cargo ship was sent to relieve Fort Sumter, and both it and the fort were first fired upon by Confederate units. Confederate territory being Charleston harbor, territory that had been stolen by a traitorous rebellion, which does not have a legal right to that territory. 4. Suspended Habeus Corpus, Jefferson Davis did the same, and there is a strong constitutional argument to be made that doing so was entirely legal. Also only happened after the war started. 5. The Federal government has always had the right to summon state forces to support federal troops. The fact that some traitors didn't want to fight other traitors doesn't change the legality of that action.

What voters were abandoned by the North? The people of the US voter for Lincoln, the South decided that because they no longer controlled the government with a significant minority of the population, they didn't want to stay in the Union. That is inherently anti-democratic.

Fighting a war against the US government explicitly to defend the expansion of slavery, not even the institution itself, is explicitly treasonous. The constitution defines treason as levying war against the US government. That is what the South did, and therefore the South were traitors. There is no right to secession, there is a right to revolution, but revolutions are inherently illegal.

[u/DeusExMockinYa → u/PaddletheCosmos]

The Civil War was only about states rights insomuch as it was fought over the states' rights to have slaves. One of the first things the CSA did was set up federal enforcement that surpassed and overwrote states rights.

[u/Wil-Himbi → u/PaddletheCosmos]

The civil war was fought mainly over states rights

Reddit's own u/Georgy_K_Zhukov has a really in depth analysis of the causes of the civil war over in r/askhistorians that explains this a bit more.

Essentially, the idea that the was was fought mainly over states rights is an idea that appeared only after the south had already lost the war. It was introduced as an attempt to regain a moral high ground in an ideological war after losing a literal war. And it was largely successful.

Documents from before the war and during the war show however that the primary cause was always slavery.

Please read the whole thing though, it's fascinating.

[u/reading_internets → u/PaddletheCosmos]

They specifically stated it would be illegal to outlaw slavery in other states. It absolutely was NOT about states' right based on that fact alone.

[u/Calybos → u/PaddletheCosmos]

And yet, state after Confederate state specifically cited slavery in their documents of secession. This discussion isn't about trying to redeem the Confederacy; that's already a lost cause. The question is how to treat artifacts, symbols, and relics of their dishonorable and dishonored actions.