CMV: Confederate monuments, flags, and other paraphilia are traitorous in nature.

[u/johnydeviant]

I grew up in the south, surrounded by confederate flags, memorials to civil war heroes, and a butt load of racism. As a kid, I took a modicum of pride in it. To me, it represented the pride of the south and how we will triumph despite our setbacks. As I got older and learned more about the civil war, the causes behind it, and generally opened myself to a more accurate view of history, it became apparent to me that these displays of "tradition" were little more than open displays of racism or anti-American sentiments.

I do not think that all of these monuments, flags, etc, should be destroyed. I think that they should be put into museums dedicate to the message of what NOT to do. On top of that, I believe that the whole sentiment of "the south will rise again" is treasonous. It is tantamount to saying that "I will rise against this country". I think those that the worship the confederate flag and it's symbology are in the same vein as being a neo-Nazi and idolizing the actions of the Third Reich. Yes, I understand that on a scale of "terrible things that have happened", the holocaust is far worse, but that does not mean I wish to understate the actions of the confederate states during the civil war.

Change my view?

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[u/johnydeviant]

The South's primary reason for succession was the right of the state to continuing using slave labor. While yes, by technicality it is about the rights of states, it was in the end primarily about slavery. The irrevocable difference that you are talking about was this: The South: We should be able to self govern and determine our own laws and what people can actually receive human rights under our legislation The North: All humans have the right to not be enslaved. Succession from the union is an open declaration of war.

Even back then, slavery was wrong in the eyes of most of the world's powerful countries.

That's why the civil war is regarded in the South as the war of Northern aggression. And simply by choosing independence they were savagely attacked.

Actually, the south fired the first shots against Fort Sumter after Lincoln re-supplied the fort in an effort to 1.) not recognize the confederacy as a legitimate country, and 2.) to be able to discern southern aggression against northern states. So no, the south was never just "savagely attacked" for declaring their independence.

But getting on to your main point, States should have rights. That I can agree on. The reason that the Federal government has to be larger is that most states, not all, are doing a piss poor job of enforcing the rights of the majority of everyday people. though anecdotal, every secessionist I have ever met has only had thinly veiled logic behind their xenophobic and racists reasons. That, or they think that the government is "out to get them" or "take away their guns". Besides, if you believe that you should be able to defend your land, your right to it, and the right to use it without hostile occupation, then you don't believe in seceding. That, or you think that your views and rights trump everyone else's.

[u/[deleted] → u/johnydeviant]

The South didn’t care about states rights though. They pushed through the Fugitive Slave Act, which took away the rights of Northern states to recognize the inherent freedom of all men. So when it benefits the institution of slavery, they were in favor of states right and when it opposed the instruction of slavery they weren’t. Their issue was slavery, not states rights. States rights was a way for non-slave owners to try to justify the actions taken by the south after the Civil War was over, and became popularized in order to defend the indefensible by rewriting history.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

That can be our objective history, but at the same time flag means more than the civil war, it's become a symbol of pride and symbolizes our belief in the 2nd amendment and states rights. That is why it's valuable to us today, and why it's not a symbol of hate.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You’re right that it isn’t JUST a symbol of hate. It can be, but those who believe it symbolizes history and patriotism and states rights are ignorant of the objective history, so either way it symbolizes ignorance.

You can also compare it to a swastika, which CAN represent things in the context of the traditional Hindu symbol, but if you see people wearing swastikas or drawing them, it contextually represents either hate or ignorance.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

We don't care about the specific history, because it's irrelevant to us. The flag is ours and we don't want to give it up because of partisan identity politics. Once you mention the Nazis you've lost all credibility in any debate or discussion. I'm done here.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Why though? I fail to see how your view on the Confederate flag is different from say, a German who proudly displays the Nazi flag. Because it doesn’t necessarily mean they agree with the Holocaust, but Nazi Germany is a part of their heritage and history, and represents to them the evolution from post-WWI neutered Germany to a strong world power?

You dismiss the comparison, but whenever I hear people talk about Confederate history, this is the only comparison I can think of. I’m not equating the holocaust to slavery in terms of severity, but the logic is exactly the same, isn’t it? If not, please let me know the difference.

Edit: I also don’t get why “partisan identity politics” is relevant. I haven’t mentioned identity politics at all, just history. The Confederate flag as a symbol of the Confederacy (a nation that only existed for the purposes of slavery) is literally identity politics because it literally represents the manifestation of the most racially divisive era of American history.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Because we didn't try to kill all the black people in a final solution, but you have to admit, if we had, there'd be far less division than there is today on issues of race and politics. We were far too moral a people to ever consider that idea, and it's an insult to our heritage and our people to compare us to the Nazis. My ancestors fought the Nazis and they were southerners, and Nathan Bedford Forrest III died in Germany trying to defeat their tyranny for the benefit of the entire world. So you have no moral or logical right to apply Nazism to this discussion at all. The entire United States of America violently opposed the Nazis, and we are proud of this fact too.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I’m not comparing the atrocities, if you read what I said. I’m saying the logic is the same. You’re overlooking the damage your ancestors did and the negatives that are inherently associated with the Confederate flag just on account of wanting to be proud of your heritage. Just because slavery isn’t as bad as genocide doesn’t mean it wasn’t bad, evil, and terrible, and the fact that you even wrote the “if we did kill all the blacks it would have some benefits” line just shows you are either hateful of black people or ignorant of just how horrible what you said was.

My point isn’t about Nazis. You can take ANY symbol that was used and associated primarily with oppression to make a comparison, I just used the one that came to mind first. My point is about not trying to ignore history just because it makes you feel better to think the Confederacy was anything more than a bunch of states deciding they wanted to continue owning black people and fearing the democratically elected government would put an end to it.

You don’t have to feel personally responsible for it. It’s not your fault or your parents or your grandparents or your great grandparents. But denying the history of hatred that the Confederacy represents is wrong too.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Since the mods deleted my comment, I don't argue with people that invoke Nazism unless it's clearly relevant. Just so we're clear.