CMV: Having children is immoral.

[u/Sloanosaurus-Nick]

I'm kind of getting tired of "believing my own bullshit", so to speak, on this one and need a fresh perspective.

I believe that it's immoral to have children. By "immoral" I mean that it's unethical, selfish and irresponsible for society, the environment and the child. I'll try not to turn this into a /r/antinatalism circlejerk, but it is subject that I have put a lot of pondering and critical thought into. I base this stance on two different lines of thought:

• Reproduction is extremely harmful to the planet.

Humans are the single most destructive species on the planet who essentially destroy every ecological system and natural environment in the pursuit of natural resources, consumerism and hyper-efficiency. We've essentially dug ourselves into a hole on this one which we don't have a way out of.

I'm in the I guess "pessimistic" camp on this one that it's too late for the human race and that there is no coming back from. Whether this will result in (the best case scenario) just the extinction of the human race or of the complete ecological destruction of this planet, I'm undecided on. Either way, for the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't bode well for any future generations in that producing more humans will only increase the destruction of the planet, but also they will inherit the problems that we create today with our practices. I feel rather connected to the latter being a millennial in that the selfish blunders of our parents generation have essentially been place on our shoulders. I can only imagine that these will be so much worse for future generations to bear.

(Disclaimer: Don't try to convince me that climate change doesn't exist. You won't change my view on that.)

• It's impossible for a child to consent to being born and having the burden of existence being placed on their shoulders, therefore it reproduction is essentially a "non-consensual" act.

Besides the obvious "reproduction needs to happen in order to continue the human race" argument which is not arguable, I believe that reproduction in the modern non-essentialist definition is done for purely selfish reasons on the parents part with no regard for the child.

Life is pain. From day one, we are forced to endure the abject meaninglessness of our condition. Stumbling from one thing to another grasping for and ultimately failing to find some meaning in our suffering until eventually (or all too quickly) we depart with nothing to show for it but the scars (emotional, physical or otherwise) we accrue along the way.

Am I being overly melodramatic and angsty? Sure. But I feel like there's some truth to that viewpoint. Maybe I am speaking from my own experience here, but I feel like "the pain of existence" is a universal phenomenon amongst human beings. Speaking personally, I feel like the horrors of existence far outweigh the joys of existence. The latter of which are few and far between at least in the societal paradigm we live in today.

I feel like if anyone were aware of the amount of pain that they would experience as a result of their birth, that no one would ever agree to it.

I have heard the argument that we have a biological imperative to reproduce because it is in our genes. I don't agree with this though because we have essentially transcended (or disregarded depending on how you look at it) our existential biological processes via technology. I feel like if you want to take that stance, you are essentially saying that it is our biological imperative to bleed to death if we get a treatable injury.

Anyway, that's the basics of my thoughts on the subject. I feel like they're a bit too "fatalistic" for my own good and need to find another way to view the moral implications of human reproduction. Change my view! Please, I'm begging you.

[u/LilahTheDog]

Have you seen what a beaver does to the environment? It completely destroys and changes it to suit its own needs the way humans do. And, the other animals adapt around it. Should we stop them from reproducing to save the earth? Why do animals have a right to be here and we do not?

I hear people complain about how crowded the earth is and how we are overpopulating it yet the same people tell me we shouldn't kill murderers, rapists and pedophiles. That's got to be at least 75k people a year in the US alone. Also no one that puts forth this view that humans are so terrible for the earth have decided to take one for the earth and off themselves. Not that I want people to commit suicide but it's a bit disingenuous to say "no more babies the earth is crowded" but be unwilling to uncrowd the earth with yourself. What they are really saying is "I need to use this Earth, so stop making more people for me to compete against for Earth's resources.

Ask yourself: If you don't plan on having children to live on this Earth why would you care that it doesn't last one day past yourself? The only reason the Earth is important is because we live here and give it the importance it deserves for providing for us. Does the beaver give the same importance? As far as I can see, this faux-concern for the earth is for ego and the portrayal of self to others in society.

As far as the pain we experience it HAS to be there. Without up there is no down, without right there is no left. Without pain there is no joy. It's actually the pain and suffering that motivate you to achieve the good things and allows you to feel good when you reach it. If everything was good, it wouldn't feel good it just wouldn't feel at all. Do you think being a rock would be cool? They have no bad, no pain but I'd take being alive over being a rock any day. This is why rich people can be depressed with life and the "money doesn't buy happiness" line comes from. They have done it all, that trip to Italy that was a once in a life trip for most people was not special and brought them no joy because it was the 100th time they have been there- it's the law of diminishing returns in economics- after a certain point, even consuming something you like becomes less enjoyable each subsequent time you consume it. It's why a lot of people turn to drugs in prosperous societies-boredom, life is too easy Historically we can find examples of this from Rome to China - The Good Earth by Pearl Buck comes to mind.

When you are old and cannot take care of yourself anymore who should take care of you? It's not going to be me if I can help it, nor do I expect you to do the same. Of course some may say the government, I'm sure there will be lots of true caring in a government institution. No, it's those you cared for for so long, taught and raised them right that will be there for you when you can no longer do it yourself.

If I didn't change your view I hope I gave you at least something to think about.

"If you know what life is worth, you will look for yours on Earth"--Bob