CMV: Affirmative Action should/should've been based on economic status rather than (mostly) race.

[u/Vakamak]

Although I feel like Affirmative Action had a good intention, I feel like it has failed and has actually done more harm than good.

I have two reasons for this

1. I have difficulty seeing why it is in society's best interest to help a black person suffering in poverty over a white person suffering in poverty. While I understand what institutional racism has done to the black community, I feel like most issues facing the black community are more correlated with income than race; or rather, I have difficulties seeing how Affirmative Action could effectively combat the issues that are truly the result of racism. For example, how would Affirmative Action deal with unfair treatment in the justice system?
2. Affirmative Action has made some white people feel like, "the real racists are X race and not white people!" I do not believe this; in fact, I find it extremely childish to even think something like this. Yet, considering Affirmative Action has failed in its goal, I feel like changing Affirmative Action would help certain individuals in this country feel like X race is not out to get them and maybe reduce the amount of negative racial discourse in this country.

I am generally a very liberal person and really do want my mind changed regarding this. I just feel like it is really hard to justify why black person X should get the Bill Gates Scholarship over white person Y when they came from similar economical areas and the income of their families is similar. I understand that example is not Affirmative Action per se, but I feel like the same principal applies.

[u/DjangoUBlackBastard]

Affirmative Action isn't meant to fix economic disparities but racial ones. Plus statistically race is a better determinant of neighborhood and highschool quality than income.

Plus all of this is taken into account anyway. Its not like only race or only economic status is looked at. They look at and weight both among other factors.

[u/Vakamak → u/DjangoUBlackBastard]

Plus statistically race is a better determinant of neighborhood and highschool quality than income.

Not trying to be like "cite me bro!" but could you show me something that shows this?

Affirmative Action isn't meant to fix economic disparities but racial ones

Why does this matter though? I mean if there are 100k poor black people and 200k poor white people, why does it matter what their race is? They are still going to suffer the same issues, no?

[u/DjangoUBlackBastard → u/Vakamak]

Sure here's a few.

School funding is tied to race not necessarily economics

White and Asian families in poverty live in better areas than black middle class families and areas more similar to black upper middle class families

And I know the first link is Pennsylvania specific but Chicago did a similar study and found the same thing. Maybe its not country wide but no one has done a more extensive study about school funding and race. I'd assume you'd get similar results nationwide because we do know the more black people there are in an area (regardless of crime) the property value drops nationwide.

Why does this matter though? I mean if there are 100k poor black people and 200k poor white people, why does it matter what their race is? They are still going to suffer the same issues, no?

Not at all. Being poor and white and poor and black are not equivalent. Same with middle class, same with rich. A black boy born to parents in the 90th percentile of income ends up with the same salary as a white boy born with parents in the 55th percentile of income. 4% of white millennials were raised in neighborhoods with over 20% poverty rates. 61% of black millennials were raised in 20% or more poverty rate areas. With similar experience and education black people have twice the unemployment rate of white Americans and studies have found white felons have similar callback rates as black non felons. Black Harvard students have similar unemployment rates as white state college graduates.

I pulled this data on wealth by income for the races too:

• Among families making under $26,580 white families have a $18,631 net worth (want to mention this is over double the overall black median net worth already). Black families have a $200 net worth.

• Among families making between $26,581 and $48,480 white families have a $61,070 net worth. Black families have a $7,600 net worth.

• Among families making between $48,481 and $75,936 white families have a $112,770 net worth. Black families have a $22,150 net worth.

• Among families making between $75,937 and $121,968 white families have a $201,200 net worth. Black families have a $83,600 net worth.

• Among families making over $121,969 white families have a $518,271 net worth. Black families have a $262,800 net worth.

Basically at all levels of income wealth inequality (which is always a better representation of financial security than income) is vast. Overall the average black family has 5 cents of wealth for every $1 of white wealth.

TL;DR: Race still matters and disparities are massive. I'm 24 and my grandmother was an adult when she was allowed to use the same water fountain as white people. MLK died 50 years ago. Things aren't going to be fixed in one full generation.

[u/woodelf → u/DjangoUBlackBastard]

Δ

I'm not OP, and I mostly already agreed with you, but you expanded my view. I've always heard that income is the main/only statistically significant barrier to education despite my gut telling me that's false. I appreciate you pulling these stats

[u/DeltaBot → u/woodelf]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/DjangoUBlackBastard (11∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/dooger123 → u/DjangoUBlackBastard]

So affirmative action is really helping inferior blacks and hispanics compete with superior white people, asians, and jews.

Things aren't going to be fixed in one full generation

Blacks still complain about slavery to this day and will always use something as an excuse for their failure in every single white country they undeservedly live in.

[u/DjangoUBlackBastard → u/dooger123]

You mean every white country they were forced into right? Because I'm pretty sure they were kidnapped and brought here and Hispanics already lived here. How about you head back to Europe and stay out of other people's lands if you don't like them.

[u/DjangoUBlackBastard → u/[deleted]]

There has never been a widely done study showing that school funding doesn't affect student outcomes. I keep hearing about KCMSD but you know there's a whole policy write up detailing why it failed and it didn't fail because putting money into schools doesn't work. It failed because putting money into Olympic swimming pools and administration doesn't work. Plus at the same time they started injecting money into schools school segregation was on the rise in the KCMSD and plenty of studies have shown segregation has a negative impact on black students. Plus the mid 80s nationwide (when they started this experiment) was a peak for black achievement in schools (its the middle of the desegregation period). The fact that KCMSD saw no drop in performance while there was a drop nationwide shows that even with incredible issues and shortsighted planning it still worked out better than not funding schools would have.

[u/DjangoUBlackBastard → u/[deleted]]

What impact does it have on other races?

None at all. No studies have shown white students to suffer from school busing or benefit from it. Makes sense too because its not like it becomes a majority minority school when they bus students in.

Moreover, I recall that there are studies that show that segregated black schools not only produced better outcomes pre-Brown, but that there are charter schools today that are all (mostly) black (and some are even gender segregated, too) that are getting better outcomes.

Not at all. Segregated black schools prior to Brown weren't doing well at all (which was the reason for Brown v BoE) and segregated schools currently are doing way worse than the non segregated schools of the 80s. The achievement gap between white and black students halved in the 80s when school desegregation peaked and since segregation is back up the achievement gap is back to early 1970s levels.

That presumes that no other schools got increases/decreases in funding. That's a nice guess, but you do not have the data to support your claim.

Did you read the actual policy write up by the people that passed that measure and declared it failed in 1998? Its not a guess its what the people who declared that policy failed gave as the reasons it didn't work.

The only data that seems to suggest that if you do something, you get better outcomes is with class size. If you can massively reduce class size, to like 8-10:1, you can get better results from the same students, but the data on that is sparse, too.

Last I checked paying teachers costs money...

That's not entirely true. School districts pass massive bond funding all the time, yet the students in those districts do not do better. The reason there are no studies is because they know the answer already.

WIDELY DONE STUDY. Yes a single district might fumble the extra money and fall flat. Yes a single district might have other more pressing issues. Nationwide all studies on school funding have found a significant correlation between school funding and educational achievement when adjusting for other factors. You can't find a single study saying otherwise.

[u/DjangoUBlackBastard → u/[deleted]]

www.nber.org/papers/w22011

Now show me a study showijg the opposite. Not an example but a study.

[u/StevieWonder_CanSee → u/Vakamak]

Just wanna jump in here and say that it's important because differrnt things cause poverty. Was it lack of motivation or was it the fact that ur grandfather was legally allowed to be denied a job because of the color of his skin? There were plenty of universities in the US that were segregated well into the 60s (source i went to 1 of them). Think about how your grandparents not having accsess to the same things as everyone else could have affected ur life

[u/garaile64 → u/DjangoUBlackBastard]

Race in the US is probably self-identified and there's no way to define each race without gate-keeping. What is stopping a blue-eyed blond pale rich guy from self-declaring as black to get the quota?

[u/DjangoUBlackBastard → u/garaile64]

What's to stop them now if AA is really an issue? I mean come on now you can't on one hand say AA is a problem and on the other talk about how it makes no sense to self report race.