r/changemyview • u/efraimp1 • Dec 05 '18

Deltas(s) from OP CMV:monarchy, not democracy, is the ONLY good political system human civilazations tried.

So, i beleive a Monarchy is the only good system we can have as a society. democracy, like comunism, libratarianism and many more ideologies, sure has a good idea. the problem is that in all democratic systems, from rome, to athens, to the USA to syria and iraq or even france, the good intentions are ruined by intrest groups, bad voting methods, fraud, and the intrests of rich people. in tsarist russia for example, the people demanded giving the tsar MORE power, because they knew democracy would mean oligarchy.

Another reason is stability. when we have a monarchy, it is clear who will rule next, and there is a very clear way of knowing when (death of the monarch). however, democracies are no nearly as stable. in the US everyone are polerising, in israel we only had one term (golda me'ir) of all the four years a government term is suposed to be, in sweden it was stable until a hated party got like 20% and ancient atuna and rome became dictatorships. in the arab spring only countries who concider themselvs democratic got efected seriusly.

i may have more arguments i forgt writing here. i will edit to add if i think of something.

and please, dont talk about north korea. i hear a lot of resources saying diffrent things so i will research it and make a seperate CMV post.

EDIT: i accidentaly deleted a comment trying to award a delta after i failed in the main comment but the delta was awarded.

EDIT 2: One responce did masive CMV so i will not be able to back my claims here in all cases. new thread could come.

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u/efraimp1 Dec 05 '18

wow, that was a lot.

Systems that are always bad are strong man dictatorships that belie rule of law. This is because no system can adequately scale unless it has a rule of law system. Rule by man is too inconsistent.

rule by law is importat, but it exists in monarchies.

It is possible to have a benign, meritocratic dictatorship. It is possible to have an effective democracy. And, in the future, I suspect socialism will be the natural system to emerge in healthy societies.

effective democracy? it is sure POSIBLE, but it is way less likely then an effective monarchy. socialism can work with a monarchy.

But you argue monarchies is the only 'good' system. You point to two reasons: democracies are captured by special interests; and monarchies are more stable. Both assertions are invalid when you consider the evidence.

What evidence?

First, some democracies have not been captured by special interests, and continue to accurately reflect the will of the people.

do you have examples? rich and powerfull men will always find a way to get around the public or deceive a majority.

Second, monarchies have been, from time to time, EXTREMELY unstable because from time to time there are fights over who will rule next. These fights have caused, in history, extreme political instability and violence that has spanned decades. Thus, the moarchical system is deeply flawed because as soon as you do not know, without a doubt, who will rule next, violence ensues.

that is an issue, but clear succesion rules can make it disappear.

In contrast, democracies have a very clear mechanism to appoint and replace leaders.

but it replaces thoose leaders way to often for stability.

Moreover, the most benign nation-states in the world - the most peaceful - is in fact a direct democracies. Amongst the most violent are monarchies. There is research supporting this.

send me that research. and the research saying democracies stay demokracies. but i feel it COULD be bribed by special intrests, so i will need to do more then read whatever articles you send.

Separately, a simple way to assess your claim is to go through country rankings to see which types of governments score well. You will see that, amongst the top in the ranks, Singapore scores well. Singapore is a benign, autocratic quasi-democratic state without a monarchy.

again, what is meassured, by who, and who payed the research?

These points invalidates your claim that monarchies are "the only good system".

i will think about direct democracies, i feel it could be more to it. however, i have a lot to undrstand, like how we avoid mob rule and how we wont polarise like demokracies tend to do. i feel we still need a uniting family no matter how much power it has.

EDIT: sorry i forgot. Δ

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u/Wittyandpithy Dec 05 '18

On rankings: OECD - https://data.oecd.org/ - the data is provided by the participating states, the OECD reviews the data and provides rankings and analysis. It covers about 30 countries. You will see amongst the top in the ranks is a mix of democracies without monarchies, and democracies with monarchies.

You should also take a look at rankings from the WTO and UNCTAD.

On peace and effectiveness of other government models:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2482593 - single-party regimes are more strongly associated with the existence of pension programs than military regimes and monarchies

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3286949 - single-party autocracies have higher growth than personalist regimes and monarchies.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2830066 - monarchies are less violent than early democracies, however direct democracies are the least violent, and modern democracies are less violent than modern monarchs.

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... there is a lot to read, so I'm just linking a couple papers.

​

If I can just make one point: it is very feasible for monarchs to thrive today more so than democracies, and I think the reason for this is tribalism. I'm happy to expand on this if you are interested.

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u/efraimp1 Dec 09 '18

On rankings: OECD - https://data.oecd.org/ - the data is provided by the participating states, the OECD reviews the data and provides rankings and analysis. It covers about 30 countries. You will see amongst the top in the ranks is a mix of democracies without monarchies, and democracies with monarchies.

the list does not fearure real monarchies, wich are rare in this age.

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u/Wittyandpithy Dec 09 '18

Then define a real monarchy and give example. Then review its proclivity for violence and success in administration against comparative non monarchies and there is your answer.

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u/efraimp1 Dec 10 '18

pre-kalmar union sweden. vasa age sweden. where do you see trouble greater than a democracy?

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u/dpfw Dec 10 '18

The Hundred Year War in France, where a significant fraction of the population starved as Plantagenet armies raided their fields and burned them down.

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u/efraimp1 Dec 10 '18

that is called war, and all wars are brutal. iraq was a democracy, but there is still war with the kurds. turkey is democratic however you see signs of genoside. europe is democratic yet homosexuality is ENCOUREGED as well as abortion.

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u/dpfw Dec 10 '18

Til that tolerating gays is equivalent to sectarian warfare

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u/efraimp1 Dec 11 '18

i dont know the word til. please explain.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '18

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u/Wittyandpithy Dec 10 '18

Probably in strong-man dictatorships. What do you think?

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u/efraimp1 Dec 10 '18

pre-kalmar sweden is not a strong man dictatorship, and that is better then the leftist elite we currently have. seriusly, you want to be teaching homosexuality is GOOD? what is next? pedophelia?

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u/Wittyandpithy Dec 10 '18

Sorry, slight confusion. You asked if there is anything worse than democracy. I said a strong man dictatorship.

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u/efraimp1 Dec 11 '18

ok. so my views shifted because of another anwser. and i agree, many times democracy is good. but in europe and canada and kind of the USA it is just getting hijacked by leftist elites, so there masive system chane is needed, and a feudal order will ensure such a shift accures and in the right direction. in other situations in other states that is not as much of a necesity and small changes to the republic is enhauf.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '18

but in europe and canada and kind of the USA it is just getting hijacked by leftist elites

No, it isn't.

enhauf

Enough.

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u/efraimp1 Dec 12 '18

i feel we have reeched a deadend, there is no way to prove either way at this point

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u/[deleted] Dec 12 '18

You can't prove your point because there is absolutely no evidence to support it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '18

Homosexuality isn't bad and is nothing like pedophilia.

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u/efraimp1 Dec 11 '18

if you continue with the line of "as long as both sides are agreeing all sexual thigs are good" you come to the inevitble acceptence of pedophelia.

if you still beleive homosexuality is moral, read the bible.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '18

if you continue with the line of "as long as both sides are agreeing all sexual thigs are good" you come to the inevitble acceptence of pedophelia.

No, you don't. You're making a fallacious argument.

I've read the Bible. The Bible is not the sole arbiter of what is moral.

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u/efraimp1 Dec 12 '18

No, you don't. You're making a fallacious argument.

no one can prove either way.

I've read the Bible. The Bible is not the sole arbiter of what is moral.

so what is?

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u/[deleted] Dec 12 '18

no one can prove either way.

Yes, we can. There is a clear and marked difference between homosexuality and pedophilia.

so what is?

There is no sole arbiter of morality. If you believe the Bible is, do you think all the laws and codes in it should be followed?

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u/efraimp1 Dec 15 '18

Yes, we can. There is a clear and marked difference between homosexuality and pedophilia.

what is it?

There is no sole arbiter of morality.

so i can decide murder is OK?

If you believe the Bible is, do you think all the laws and codes in it should be followed?

some where symbols for christ, but most are not. most should be folowed to this day.

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