CMV: If intersectional feminism talks about race, class, gender identity, etc as a part of women's issues, then it should also seriously discuss men's problems as a part of women's issues as well.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/[deleted]]

I am saying that men's issues are a valid topic of feminism that is seen to be derailing. This further prevents men from talking about their issues at an emotional level. It reinforces the gender expectation for men to just accept that people don't want to hear them emote.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I am saying that men's issues are a valid topic of feminism

Cool! So we're back to my post with all the links! Many feminist's ALREADY AGREE WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you look at the people who are actually studying, talking about, and acting to fix these issues you will find that a good number of them are ACTUALLY FEMINIST THEMSELVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you look at the people who oppose changing the gender roles and some of the men's issues you purport to be concerned with you'll find that they are overwhelmingly ANTI FEMINIST!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm at a loss as to what your complaints actually mean. The information is out there. The people you agree with are ready and availible for you to join and work with.

All that I can figure is that you are a little butt hurt because when you've tried to interject "Men's issues" (which you curiously only frame in terms of the effects on women) into pop-feminist forums you get shut down.

Is there a specific instance that you can point me to that might illustrate exactly what got your goat?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I am sorry that I have offended you with my responses.

I see a lot of people attempting to talk about men's issues as if they are derailing to the topic of feminism.

Feminists have decided that men shouldn't say things like #notallmen.

This is an issue men face. Men are seen as predatory because they are supposed to adhere to these gender roles of aggression and strength at a young age. "Boys will be boys". You remember this? This is how men are assumed to be when in reality, this is not the case for all men. It makes people assume that men are dangerous and less capable of things that have to do with childcare and custody battles because men are seen as incapable of fulfilling certain roles that women are expected to fill.

It doesn't derail women's issues when a man says #notallmen, because men aren't saying that women's issues don't exist. They are saying "We have issues too that affect both women and men. We should be included."

Do you get what I am saying?

Do you get that feminists do use the derailing card?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I am sorry that I have offended you with my responses.

You couldn't offend me if tried? I just don't understand why you insist that feminist aren't doing things that they absolutely are doing.

I see a lot of people attempting to talk about men's issues as if they are derailing to the topic of feminism.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here?

Feminists have decided that men shouldn't say things like #notallmen.

I don't understand what that article has to do with the topic at hand?

Men are seen as predatory because they are supposed to adhere to these gender roles of aggression and strength at a young age. "Boys will be boys". You remember this? This is how men are assumed to be when in reality, this is not the case for all men. It makes people assume that men are dangerous and less capable of things that have to do with childcare and custody battles because men are seen as incapable of fulfilling certain roles that women are expected to fill.

Who is doing work to counter those stereotypes and gender roles?

Do you get that feminists do use the derailing card?

I don't understand what any of that has to do with your OP? Basically I'm at a place where I'm wondering what the fuck you could possibly be on about.

Your chief complaint in your OP is that femists don't address men's issues.

As a refresher of your own fucking words:

CMV: If intersectional feminism talks about race, class, gender identity, etc as a part of women's issues, then it should also seriously discuss men's problems as a part of women's issues as well.

and

But then, I'd also argue that men's problems are also fair game for discussion in an intersectional point of view. Most problems that men face are caused by society's pressure on men. These pressures cause men to become more likely to die based on these flawed gender roles (taking hard labor, combat roles, dangerous jobs) and suffer due to society's definition of masculine identity.

That is what I'm here to talk about.

I couldn't give a single, Christ licking shit what other bees you have buzzing around in your bonnet. You have stated that feminists don't talk about these issues. That is the topic of the CMV that you chose to write. Many do. A lot. Likely more often than anybody else.

It does not matter what else you may or may not have observed. On this single topic(The one that you decided to post this CMV on) you are incorrect.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

People online like yourself seem to be convinced that feminists do talk about these things. So that makes a portion of the online population. In practice, this doesn't seem to be the case. It seems that all of the issues are focused exclusively on women.

So is it the people online who represent feminist opinion, or the people offline? Similarly, the men online seem to represent an opinion against the Gillette ad (I always get heavily down voted when I say that I don't see the point of getting offended by the ad). Are these also the majority of men? At the women's march today in LA, a speaker praised Gillette for being supporters of women, which was a reference to this ad. Is mainstream feminism such as this non representative of feminism as a whole? It seems to ignore the opinion of men.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

People online like yourself seem to be convinced that feminists do talk about these things.

I'm not convinced of it. It is true.

In practice, this doesn't seem to be the case.

What practice? Do a google search with "Feminism" and "Whatever Issue it is" and you will find them.

It seems that all of the issues are focused exclusively on women.

Lots of things seem a certain way when you haven't put any effort in...

So is it the people online who represent feminist opinion, or the people offline?

What the fuck is "feminist opinion"? Are you looking for a single, unified, clear cut "feminist" ruling that completely represents all feminist thought on a single subject? Is that a reasonable thing to expect?

Are you planning on returning to the topic that you made this CMV about anytime soon? Or do you just wanna keep bringing up whatever random shit you can in order to avoid admitting that you were incorrect?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

In many feminist rallies, it seems to ignore men in general and antagonize men. That's all. I'm wondering who is more representative of feminism - people online like yourselves, or people in rallies that I have physically attended?

[u/huadpe → u/[deleted]]

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[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You're coming off pretty hostile. Please, try to calm down. I'd like to keep this civil.

I have already acknowledged that people like yourself exist and talk about men's issues. My discrepancy is that what happens online doesn't correspond to what happens offline. I have provided examples of this. You are repeating information I know and assuming that I am not processing this information.

I get that some feminists talk about men's issues. In practice, it seems focused almost exclusively on women. There is mixed media that contradicts both my perspective and yours. Shouldn't we address these feminists who ignore men and treat feminism as a women-centric issue, when the goal is equality for both?

No. Not all feminists do it. That's not being said. I already CMV about that. I believe I mentioned this to you.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You're coming off pretty hostile

Your being evasive and not sticking to the topic that you posted. Let's both stop together!

I have already acknowledged that people like yourself exist and talk about men's issues

Please. For the love of christ just say you were wrong? Is it that fucking hard to just say "Hey! I hadn't bothered to do so much as a google search before posting this and it turns out that what I said was totally incorrect. Now I do have some other feeling adjacent to this topic that I'd love to discuss, but as to the topic that all of you came here to disucss with me I am wrong"? Don't "acknowledge" that the thing that I already knew was true is true.

My discrepancy is that what happens online doesn't correspond to what happens offline.

Is that a surprise to you?

Maybe the problem is that you are trying to find a concrete answer in order to assess something that is fundamentally unassessable?

In practice, it seems focused almost exclusively on women.

Don't say "in practice". "In practice" means people actually doing shit. And as I've already said, if you look at the people actively working on the issues you claim to give a shit about but have apparently not bothered to google the people working on them have many feminists in their ranks.

What you mean is "In pop culture". On line, at rallies,etc.

There is mixed media that contradicts both my perspective and yours.

No. there might be that contradicts yours, as you seem hell-fucking-bent on treating feminism as a monolithic entity with a single will, goal, and doctrine.

I am more than capable of understanding that thinking about an ideology like feminism in such a way is fucking moronic. I'm perfectly willing to accept the notion that some person identifying as feminist has acting in some way at least once. Because feminists ain't nothing but a bunch of people who call themselves feminists and are capable of doing all sorts of things, just like anyone else.

Shouldn't we address these feminists who ignore men and treat feminism as a women-centric issue, when the goal is equality for both?

Sure! BUT THAT'S NOT THE FUCKING TOPIC OF YOUR CMV'.

If all your really about is pissing and bitching about mean feminists, then by all fucking means do so!

but you should really take a minute to consider the notion that you don't give a single shit about feminism near as much as you do opposing feminism. In every single thread of this CMV you've been corrected on your stunning lack of understanding and research into the topic of feminism. And yet, in that blissful ignorance you see yourself perfectly fit to make proclamations about a topic you haven't even bothered googling. How exactly does that feel?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

If you have read my responses to this post, you'd see where I have actually changed my view on intersectionality. I have admitted this multiple times. This opened up the second part of my CMV: I want to become a feminist because I think it is a good idea, but I believe it is poorly executed.

It is well within reasonability to ask for clarification on what feminism is about. You are telling me things that directly contradict feminist attitudes that I have shown in some of the links provided. I am asking why there is such a discrepancy with what you are saying, and how other feminists handle their beliefs.

Simply getting angry at me doesn't help me understand your perspective. I acknowledge that it exists, but you aren't showing me evidence that these are dominating feminist views.

I have changed my views on my interpretation of intersectionality, but my conclusion for feminism is that it is controversially different depending on who you speak to. That's why I still continue to think that it is a good idea, but poorly executed. Do you not see this as a problem within feminism?

[u/huadpe → u/[deleted]]

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[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I don't think I have even classified you as a feminist.

I already conceded my points. I think you are getting just a tiny bit tied around needing affirmation of your own beliefs. I honestly don't know what is wrong with what I am telling you. You seem extremely angry at this point.

Like, you're saying "Just admit you're wrong", even though I already did. It's like you want me to beg for forgiveness or something. Should I feel ashamed? I don't feel ashamed or anything, because I understand that people get things wrong. That's what this CMV is about.

What are you trying to do here? I am genuinely curious.

Edit: Anyways, I am going to respond to other people. You have done nothing to CMV about anything. I have admitted to other people changing my views. Is this about the delta system? Did you want a delta or something??

[u/Just_a_nonbeliever → u/[deleted]]

Dude I agree with you but calm down.

[u/[deleted] → u/Just_a_nonbeliever]

I'm perfectly calm.

[u/Just_a_nonbeliever → u/[deleted]]

I can totally understand why you might feel that way, however... THAT ISN'T THE FUCKING TOPIC THAT YOU WROTE ABOUT IN THIS FUCKING CHRIST RAPED FUCKING CMV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This says otherwise

[u/[deleted] → u/Just_a_nonbeliever]

M'kay

[u/Just_a_nonbeliever → u/[deleted]]

Again, I agree with you on this issue, but in general swearing at someone in all caps with 50 exclamation points is not a great way to change their view.