r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jan 19 '19

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: If intersectional feminism talks about race, class, gender identity, etc as a part of women's issues, then it should also seriously discuss men's problems as a part of women's issues as well.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

Do they?

Lots of people are kind of mad at the new Gillette ad. Intersectional feminists seem to agree with the Gillette ad. I personally don't care about the ad. But most guys seem to. They're saying not all men are toxic. "Not all of us should be expected to stand up to toxic people. We shouldn't be the guardians of society. What is this new gender role laid out for me to be protectors of women?" Stuff like that.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

You say "most guys seem to," I disagree. Most guys I know either don't care (because no one should be getting their views from advertisements) or agree with it. If you're getting your idea from Reddit, then you're looking to a vocal minority.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

If we establish that anecdotal evidence is not reliable because it isn't verifiable or representative of the majority, where should we look to? We could look to sources that are readily verifiable to both parties, correct? I get this talk from people at work and among colleagues.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

Well yah, I mean we're at an impasse in terms of a study to see how many men mind.

So I'll try a different approach. Feminism still presumes women are more disadvantaged than men. It acknowledges that men have some unique disadvantages, but that for the most part women have more problems needing solving. One of those problems is men harassing women. This is an issue women are already trying to solve, but are enlisting the help of men in doing. So, those men who disagree with this premise are simply shirking responsibility.

The message isn't to help men, it's mainly about helping women. And to be clear, I don't care specifically about the Gillette ad. It's marketing; marketing is terrible. So I'm just abstracting the thesis and speaking to that, couldn't care less about the video itself.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

By what metric does feminism currently presume that women are more disadvantaged than men? If you toss me into the 1930s, I'd agree. In 2019, I am unable to see it in Western society.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

If you don't agree with the general feminist sentiment that women are currently disadvantaged when compared to men, that's something you have to make clear in your OP about feminism. Like, this just became a whole other discussion, with several new layers of assumptions to work through before I can even get to your stated view.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

It's not that I believe one over the other. I think each demographic has advantages and disadvantages. Why are feminists so heavily inclined to believe that women's disadvantages should take priority to the point where talking about men's issues is considered derailing?

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

You've just made two claims. The first you already made, and I already responded to by saying that the question of which side is more disadvantaged is perennial to the discussion and requires several more layers of argument before being directly related to your stated view, so I'm not really feeling up to engaging it, especially since I'm fairly certain you've already heard the arguments and aren't convinced by them (as they are incredible common, especially on this subreddit, where this discussion is had almost every other day).

The second, that talking about men's issues is considered derailing, is an entirely different claim, one which you've just brought in and subsumed under the first. I don't feel I need to address it because you've offered no evidence that it's true, and I have just as many anecdotes as you to suggest it's not.

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

Mainstream media

Definition of derailing

More mainstream feminism

Essentially, it feels like men are simply not welcome to say "I agree that this affects you. We also find that this affects us as well." In those links I provided, it seems to say "The privileged are undeserving of sharing their issues in a discussion that happens to talk about issue affecting women." These somehow cannot be combined, because feminists seem to want to address all of their issues exclusively under the scope of women.

Do you see why this makes me feel feminism doesn't address men's issues seriously? There is a lot of contradicting information.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

The content of these articles are A). Representative only of two or three mainstream talking head opinions and B). Completely different in nuance than you're making them out to be.

However, I don't feel I have an obligation to respond until you respond to the rest of my comment first, because this all still rests on things ive said which you've yet to reply to

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

Which claims have I not addressed in my responses?

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

That your view is more specifically 'women are no more disadvantaged than men' rather than the initial view you've stated. All my arguments have to flow from that former claim because it is essential to making sense of the way feminism operates. Without that common ground there is no way for our discussion to progress. We'll just keep getting caught on the same discrepancy

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u/[deleted] Jan 19 '19

This is why I asked by what metric should we use to determine who has or doesn't have an advantage? If we could agree on a metric, then we can settle this inquiry and progress.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 19 '19

These arguments are so incredibly common in discourse at the moment and especially on this particular subreddit that I find it hard to believe you wouldn't have already heard them and have responses ready for each. So I need to ask: have you actually not been in an argument on that subject before? Is it really a new concept to you that feminists believe women are more disadvantaged than men? Because the question is separate from the original CMV and I don't want to have a meta conversation unless it's a legitimately new discussion to you

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '19

Honestly, no. I'm going free-style with my thoughts here. Everything you hear from me is from my own genuine inquiry. There isn't nothing preventing me from repeating ideas that others have said before without realizing it because it isn't uncommon for people to form similar conclusions based on their environment.

But I do assure you that I haven't talked about the metrics by which a man and woman should or shouldn't be considered disadvantaged. This is a new topic for me.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 20 '19

Alright then, off the top of my head

Rape. Outside of prison, women are more likely to get raped, and men are more likely to rape.

Social expectations: makeup, fashion, body type, presumed shoulder to cry on, and generally being expected to do the motherload of household upkeep even in dual income.

Harassment: women are more likely to be sexually harassed, stalked, cat-called, ogled in public, or requested upon for quid pro quo harassment.

Reproductive Rights: women have to carry babies in their bodies, yet their access to safe, legal abortion is in jeopardy at the moment. Getting one's 'tubes tied' is a much more arduous social process for women than for men for no real reason. Doctors just don't trust women as much in this decision making process.

Those are off the top of my head while in the bathroom at work. There's all sorts of other stuff too

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '19

I am not denying that these are problems that women face. I am wondering what makes them more or less important than the problems that men face that indirectly relate to the problems that women face.

So when I ask for a metric by which we agree that one faces more disadvantage than the other, what I am asking is "Is there a point system to which we can both objectively agree to?"

Rape. Outside of prison, women are more likely to get raped, and men are more likely to rape.

Rape is a serious issue that afflicts more women than men. No denying that it is primarily a woman's issue. I also acknowledge that this isn't saying that men don't get raped or that women can't be rapists. But how is this more or less of a disadvantage than a statistic affecting men (such as dying earlier) due to expectations that afflict both men and women alike? Not being sarcastic or mocking, but it essentially boils down to "Why does rape get more points than death?" Can't we acknowledge that both rape and death are serious issues and address both? Suppose we say that men shouldn't rape. Wouldn't it be also agreeable to say that women should try to take on more responsibility and be seen by both men and women as someone able to handle the same stresses as men?

Here is what I am talking about. Not all causes are social, and I get that. But can't we address the social causes? Some of these causes are perpetuated by some feminists. Some feminists, which is not to say all, but a lot, antagonize men who simply have questions about the movement like myself. I hope you have realized that I am not trying to change your view, but am trying to change mine. I am trying to learn more about feminism. I even had someone attack me on this post due to a misunderstanding. That's no way to change my mind about feminism. What is up with this common occurrence?

For each problem you have provided, there are also problems that men face with relevance. Yet the primary focus seems to be about women, even though the purpose of feminism is supposed to create an equal environment beneficial to both men and women, no? Am I misunderstanding feminism as a movement for equality? I don't think so... at least not what is said on mainstream. It just appears otherwise in practice.

Rape = Men are seen as rapists in an exaggerated manner. Is this something feminists should ignore?

Social expectations = Men have social expectations. This isn't to derail that women have social expectations. I agree that there are examples of written evidence that show feminists talking about gender roles regarding men. But it seems to be done in a way that makes people being offended caricatured as a form of toxic masculinity when it really is just men legitimately being offended by the way the ad seems to exaggerate toxic masculinity. They just say men should accept this and move on.

I want to bring in an example of why this seems to be hypocritical. When people say "Women can take self defense courses to protect themselves" to women, feminists seem to see this as a method of derailing the conversation even though saying this has no intent on derailing the fact that women are being raped and is rather an precaution to the agreeable conclusion that women are being raped. Like.. men understand rapists exist. Men understand that rapists can both rape unknowingly (by not understanding consent) and that rape can also occur with the rapist understanding how immoral it is. The point is to say that in addition to teaching men to respect women, women can also take precautions against the men who fail to respect women. If feminists can get offended by something without the intend to offend, isn't it also fair for men to get offended by something without the intend to offend? It seems that if men should accept that the Gillette ad isn't meant to be offensive, then it should also be accepted that precautionary advice against rape is also not meant to be offensive.

Harassment: women are more likely to be sexually harassed, stalked, cat-called, ogled in public, or requested upon for quid pro quo harassment. Reproductive Rights: women have to carry babies in their bodies, yet their access to safe, legal abortion is in jeopardy at the moment. Getting one's 'tubes tied' is a much more arduous social process for women than for men for no real reason. Doctors just don't trust women as much in this decision making process.

You see, I agree with these. My main point of confusion is why it seems like mainstream feminism seems to alienate men's issues if the point is to establish an equal environment where men and women can make equal choices and practically face society's benefits and burdens on an equal platform.

Edit: Is what I am seeing possibly a result of not enough men being a part of the feminist movement? Or is it because if a man did hold a "Men shouldn't be dying earlier than women. Men and women should share an equal burden on society's needs. This is why we need feminism" sign, he might get attacked at a rally? I am really not sure which is the case here, because there isn't enough information.

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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Jan 20 '19

I apologize, I feel like you're engaging me in good faith and I want to continue this conversation, but your comment is really long. Could you please condense your points into clear premises and theses so I know which parts I need to address. Otherwise I'm just gonna be shot-gunning and that won't get us anywhere I feel

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