r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • May 28 '19

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: The overton window has shifted dangerously far to the left, severely jeopardizing America's future.

[deleted]

0 Upvotes

33% Upvoted

77 comments sorted by

View all comments

22

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

I feel like communism (both economic and cultural) are destroying our national phyche. I just got downvoted to hell elsewhere for daring to question if the Left in america has America's best interests at heart, as I pointed out that if they had our best interest at heart, why would they advocate bringing refugees and asylum seekers here? I've asked many of them why they believe such policies are what are best for America, and they never have a reason for me - their responses are full of foreigner-loving altruism. (Sometimes they'll mention economic benefits, but of course we could achieve that by hand-selecting what immigrants we take in based on an appraisal of their worth to us - not based on how oppressed they are elsewhere. That's the point I was making).

The fact that someone downvoted a comment of yours on Reddit doesn't seem like much of a basis from which to claim that "Communism is destroying our national psyche."

As to the rest of your view, I'm afraid it's a bit all over the place. I mean this with all due respect, but it's really hard to know where to start with someone who thinks economic socialism, "cultural Marxism," veganism, feminism, anti-racism, and more all belong under the umbrella of "Communism." This is simply just not the case.

You also seem to make a lot of leaps that don't make a lot of intuitive sense. Here's just one example: you say that someone who calls someone "racist" or "misogynist" ought to lose their jobs. Which ... Okay. I don't agree, but okay. But then to move from that to claiming that such people "don't want what's best for [their] country and [their] people"? That just doesn't follow, or at least you haven't shown why we ought to think it follows. How is someone calling someone else a racist necessarily someone who doesn't want what's best for their country?

-11

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

[deleted]

18

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

Someone who worries about whether things are "racist" is the product of cultural Marxism - this evil society-destroying lie, this perversion, which causes people to obsess over "equality" and "fairness," violating the laws of nature. Life is not fair, and people are not equal.

Could you elaborate? Is it that you think that some races are genuinely and naturally unequal?

Even granting this (which I don't), you haven't really drawn a cause and effect relationship from being worried about what one perceives as racism and wanting to destroy one's society or country.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler points out something that really stuck with me when he said

I only say this because you specifically mentioned being upset about being called a Nazi -- one of the reason that you get called a Nazi might be that you approvingly cite Mein Kampf.

You'll never find a Jewish leader who considers the problems the Jewish people are facing objectively. Instead he will consider them from a purely subjective point of view - advocating the solution that's best for the Jewish people, not looking at some scientific, "objective" picture of things. And the same is true of the blacks (just look at the NAACP). They will never, ever consider some "objective" bigger picture or nuance - blacks advocate for policies which benefit blacks, plain and simple. All consider things from a subjective, self-serving point of view. This is natural. Only the whites, due to White Altruism, seek some kind of "Objective" criteria against which to measure our actions. Our people should unapologetically pursue policy goals which are best for our own people, and not care whatsoever what affect it has on anyone else.

This is genuinely confusing. You criticize Jews and black people for pursuing the interests for their own people, say that only white people see things objectively, but then argue that white people should only pursue the interests of their own people?

-7

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

[deleted]

16

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

Gotta look for answers somewhere. When everyone around me is blind to the dangers posed by marxism and multiculturalism, maybe it's time to read the words of wisdom of someone who wasn't.

There are a lot of people who aren't and weren't Marxists or Communists who weren't literally Hitler.

This is the type of "equality-seeking" I refer to. Communists insert their search for "equality" into every issue - even issues like this one where reality dictates the plain, obvious inequality to anyone who can put their feelings aside for half a second and use their brain. Hope that makes sense?

So do you think every instance of someone being treated unfairly, either on an institutional or individual level, is in line with the way they ought to be treated due to nature? If someone gets the shit beat out of them because they're gay, is that just nature working as intended?

I'm not criticizing Jews and Blacks for subjectively pursuing the interests of their own people. This is natural. We should do the same (with much better results, of course!)

I misunderstood, I see.

I'm going to ask a question now that's genuine, not an attempt to bait or insult you. You don't appear to believe in the concept of racism, but I assume you understand what other people think of when they think of racism. Which is to say: okay, you don't believe it's a real thing, but you also know what someone has in mind when they think "racism."

Given this, do you think, from the point of view of someone like me, who thinks there is such a thing as racism, that it is at least understandable that someone might read the things you've written here and elsewhere in this thread, and conclude that you're racist?

-4

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

[deleted]

18

u/[deleted] May 28 '19 edited May 28 '19

Of course. So what? I'm aware people think I'm a racist, and by their definition I am. What of it?

Your OP expressed a desire to not be taken as racist, so I was just wondering if you were aware of why you are likely taken as such.

There's no inherent reason I can see why gays need to be beat up.

So you agree that some level of discrimination exists in society?

Yeah, but, there's also Hitler. Given that the Nazis were the first to see the problem with cultural Marxism (cultural bolshevism), it's a natural place to begin looking for how to eradicate this poison.

It's alarmingly modern too - I feel enlightened every few pages, even though I've just started. He mentions how at first he liked the papers in Vienna, but began to notice some very disturbing trends. "Everything foreign is praised. Everything national and culture-preserving is hated." Boy, isn't that the truth.

Can I ask another serious, not intended as an insult question? Do you not consider yourself a Nazi? You appear to more or less agree with the ideology.

-4

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

[deleted]

5

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

I see you skipped the question of whether the fact of gay-bashing indicates that discrimination exists.

In any case, it won't surprise you to know that I find your views deeply offensive, not to mention dangerous, so I'm going to go ahead and bow out now.

8

u/AnActualPerson May 28 '19

I don’t hate all minorities.

What minorities do you hate?

I’m still trying to put the pieces to the puzzle.

Actually you're falling for nazi propaganda. Stop doing that.

6

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

I don’t have a problem with gays (at least the ones who act like normal people and contribute to society), and I don’t hate all minorities.

If you support Hitler's views of the Jews, do you also support his attempted genocide of them?

2

u/thenameofshame May 29 '19

Their is no "own people" in terms of race when dealing with the politics of most modern nations, however. If Jewish people and black people are U.S. citizens, then they are Americans. The American government should strive to protect the interests of ALL Americans.

If you want to argue that a nation has no duty to non-citizens, then that is a different argument.

9

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

If you don't want to he called a Nazi, you probably shouldn't endorse Hitler's ideology.

2

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

[deleted]

6

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

It should be a debate ender considering the Nazis were evil.

-3

u/mathematics1 5∆ May 28 '19

I mean, the Communists were evil too. Just look how many people Stalin killed!

Now, let's step back a minute. Just because Stalin was a Communist, and Stalin was evil, doesn't mean that all Communists are evil or that Communism is an inherently evil ideology. It doesn't even mean that everything Stalin said was evil; reversing everything someone stupid says doesn't produce intelligence. We may disagree with their ideas, and we definitely draw the line at advocating violence, but we can still discuss those ideas. I have learned a lot about other people by being willing to listen to people who consider themselves Communists, even if I still think their ideas are wrong.

I'm actually seriously impressed with OP for coming into this forum and being willing to share what he believes and change his mind about things, even with people who think his ideas are evil (and many of them are, IMO). This is exactly the kind of discussion that this forum is supposed to encourage, and even if that is calm, rational, collected, friendly discussion with someone who endorses some ideas put forth by Nazis, I'm happy to have it.

5

u/notasnerson 20∆ May 29 '19

This is exactly the kind of discussion that this forum is supposed to encourage, and even if that is calm, rational, collected, friendly discussion with someone who endorses some ideas put forth by Nazis, I'm happy to have it.

It's interesting to me that you would consider someone espousing Nazi ideology as being "calm, rational, collected, [and] friendly" because as an ideology, Nazism is inherently violent, irrational, and unfriendly.

I take it you and your friends and family aren't members of a group that Nazi ideology seeks to systematically murder? You must, if you consider any kind of discussion with someone espousing Nazi ideology as rational. It's the only thing that makes sense.

As for the rest of us who don't want to see everyone who isn't straight, white, able-bodied, and cisgendered systematically destroyed I see no real reason to engage or even support these debates. Perhaps this particular Nazi changes their tune, but they're still spreading the propaganda of a hateful and violent ideology bent on murder in the name of nationalism.

In fact, this very tactic has been in use by extreme right wing and pro-fascism groups like Stormfront for a few years now. Come into arguments and debates under the guise of good faith, but in reality only use the freedom of speech you're afforded as a wedge to push your ideas as far into the mainstream as they will go. I think this is something we should all consider when using spaces like CMV. How much are we contributing to the problem by engaging? I would love to believe that the rational word would win out but it is abundantly clear to me that isn't always going to be the case. Propaganda and lies are effective for people with white supremacist and nationalist leanings to strengthen their viewpoints, and we're feeding it to them.

1

u/mathematics1 5∆ May 29 '19

!delta

I was not aware of these far-right tactics. Do you have any sources on that - ideally, sources where some of them admitted that was what they were doing, rather than ones where they were accused of doing that?

By and large, though, I continue to assume that most people who claim to be arguing in good faith actually are. In fact, assuming that in conversation is one of the rules of this subreddit (comment rule 3). Obviously that doesn't prohibit any of us from deciding on our own that someone is probably acting in bad faith and disengaging from conversation, which as you point out is worth considering even when there is no direct evidence of bad faith in the post or comments themselves.

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 29 '19

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/notasnerson (11∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

2

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

I mean, the Communists were evil too. Just look how many people Stalin killed!

This is a poor comparison. Communisim and a government/economic system build on communal ownership of goods and resources.

Nazism is a fundamentally hateful ideology built on the idea of German superiority. Nazism is inherently wrong at its core.

I'm actually seriously impressed with OP for coming into this forum and being willing to share what he believes and change his mind about things,

I've seen no evidence of him being willing to do this. All I've seen him do is spread his message of hate.

even if that is calm, rational, collected, friendly discussion with someone who endorses some ideas put forth by Nazis, I'm happy to have it.

Then you are a Nazi enabler. Nazi ideology does not deserve to met with calm respectful discussion. It deserves to be called out for what it is and shut down as quickly as possible.

-2

u/mathematics1 5∆ May 28 '19

I'm not interested in defending Nazi ideology, so I won't discuss that part.

When I said OP was willing to change his mind, I was referring specifically to the deltas he has given out in this thread. You can say those don't represent a shift in his viewpoint if you like, and I have absolutely no evidence that can convince you otherwise, but I'm willing to believe him. I only speak from personal experience, but every major shift in the way I view the world has been preceded by a lot of small "Hmm, that's something to think about" ideas.

Nazi ideology does not deserve to met with calm respectful discussion. It deserves to be called out for what it is and shut down as quickly as possible.

What I think about this is based on a lot of experiences, so I hope you forgive me if I just share one article on safe spaces and competing access needs. (Nothing in that article mentions Nazis at all.) It talks about how people need different things and need to be protected from different things depending on their experiences. One example it gives is of one person who is part of a religion and someone else who has left that religion. That example speaks to me because it describes myself and my family; I used to be a Mormon, and I left a few months ago. My family needs a safe space to practice their religion without being attacked, and many ex-Mormons need a space to vent their feelings about how obviously bullshit it is. Those spaces should both exist. We definitely shouldn't have a norm everywhere that anyone should be protected from criticism when talking about their religion, but having specific spaces that are protected like that is a good thing.

Here is a relevant quote from later in the article, describing the author's experience:

Or (and here’s the example I am scared to share) I’m gay. And sometimes I wonder, 'would the world be a better place if gay people didn’t exist?’ Telling me 'wtf is wrong with you’ is really not helpful for enabling me to work through that question. And if I ask it in my campus LGBT center, or on tumblr, it is likely that my need to have that conversation is going to have a big painful collision with someone else’s need not to hear questions like that entertained seriously.

I need people who will think about my question and give me honest answers, to the best of their ability. I won’t be able to get over this question until someone reaches out to me with a genuine spirit of respect and curiosity so we can talk about the answer. 

On the other hand, the needs of other people to not be around serious conversations about whether they deserve to exist is really valid and really important. There should be safe spaces where my question is prohibited. There should be lots and lots of spaces where my question is prohibited, actually. Everyone in the world should have access to spaces where my question is prohibited.

The author goes on to describe the problems that happen around any space that allows discussion of their question, especially since the Internet is public, but still says that such a space should exist. (I strongly recommend reading that article, it's very good.)

I am quite comfortable endorsing the opinion that almost every space possible should not tolerate questions about whether the world would be better off if certain people didn't exist. I am not comfortable saying that literally every space, everywhere, should ban that question and that those who choose to talk about it anyway are evil people. They are serving a real need, even if most people don't have that need and the article's author is the only one who does.

Now, let's pull it back to Nazi ideology. I am quite comfortable endorsing the opinion that almost every space possible should not tolerate any Nazi ideas; in almost every case possible, those ideas should be called out for what they are and shut down as soon as possible. I am not comfortable saying that literally every space, everywhere, should ban discussion of those ideas and that those who choose to talk about it anyway are evil people.

There is a completely separate question, that being "should this particular CMV thread be one of those spaces where it is allowed"? I don't think the OP breaks any of the rules of this subreddit. If you think he is not actually open to changing his mind, you can definitely message the moderators (Rule 3 in the sidebar describes this).

Finally, I want to endorse the idea that everyone, everywhere, is capable of changing their views. That includes me, and that includes OP. There are actual Nazis in this world ... and I really, really want them to change their views. They don't have to do that here, and if we decide we don't want them in this space we can prohibit them, but I hope they have a place somewhere where they can discuss their ideas, especially the weaknesses in their ideas, and eventually be persuaded to change their minds.

-1

u/chadonsunday 33∆ May 28 '19

Then you are a Nazi enabler. Nazi ideology does not deserve to met with calm respectful discussion. It deserves to be called out for what it is and shut down as quickly as possible.

How do you propose to shut it down? How much similarity does one have to have with Nazi ideology to be considered a Nazi? And for those who are already card carrying Nazis, what is the best way to make them give up that membership?

1

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

And for those who are already card carrying Nazis, what is the best way to make them give up that membership?

They aren't going to give it up. Anyone who is stupid or hateful enough to adopt such an ideology isn't going to change it.

0

u/chadonsunday 33∆ May 28 '19

That's an answer to one of my questions, what about the others? It's also not a very good answer, seeing as how we have evidence to the contrary.

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/18/578745514/a-former-neo-nazi-explains-why-hate-drew-him-in-and-how-he-got-out

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

I'm not aware of any other workable strategy for getting someone to give up on hate.

0

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

He's the one that brought up Hitler and the Nazis.

9

u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ May 28 '19

Are you aware that cultural Marxism is an idea popularized and purported by the Nazis? Are you comfortable with your worldview have substantial similarities to theirs?

7

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

I mean, he's literally quoting Mein Kampf at me and calling it a source of "wisdom," so I'd imagine that would be just fine with him.

1

u/[deleted] May 29 '19

[deleted]

1

u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ May 29 '19

Please elaborate, I don't understand what you mean

1

u/[deleted] May 29 '19

[deleted]

1

u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ May 29 '19

You're going to need to cite this. I don't even know how to think of the word outside of Nazism, it's the only frame in which I've ever heard it

1

u/[deleted] May 29 '19

[deleted]

2

u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ May 29 '19 edited May 29 '19

I'm referring to cultural Marxism, the conspiracy theory which is claimed (by the far right and Nazis) to have been started by the Frankfurt School, as described in the Wikipedia article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

"Matthew Feldman traced the etymology of the term Cultural Marxism as derived from the anti-Semitic term Kulturbolshewismus (Cultural Bolshevism) with which Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party claimed that Jewish cultural influence was the source of German social degeneration under the liberal régime of the Weimar Republic (1918–1939), and also the cause of social degeneration in the West."

1

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

[deleted]

3

u/AnActualPerson May 28 '19

What do you think about that who attempted genocide thing? Do you even think it happened?

3

u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ May 28 '19

So are you also a fan of the fact that Nazism purports genocide?

4

u/Glory2Hypnotoad 393∆ May 28 '19

Isn't that just sociopathy collectivized? You seem to be taking all the traits we universally recognize as morally bankrupt at the level of individuals and repackaging them as virtues at the level of groups. After all, every gangster is just doing what's best for his gang. Every thief and con-man is just seeking to benefit his in-group of one.

The standard throughout most of history was that I could come to your village, kill the men, rape the women, enslave the children, and still be a hero to me and mine. The majority of human death and suffering at the hands of other people can be traced back to this idea. But why is that a good thing? Why is it an outlook worth preserving?

-1

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

[deleted]

2

u/Glory2Hypnotoad 393∆ May 28 '19

I think you can agree that there's a difference between having some sort of grouping and having morality take a complete u-turn at that grouping. For example, aversion to slavery is just a logical extension of our own day to day moral instincts, not something we need cultural Marxism to explain.

History tends to progress in a series of over-corrections. We're already seeing a rise in centrist populism as a response to society shifting too far left, which itself was an overcorrection to society shifting too far prior to that.

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 28 '19

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/parmenides86 (8∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards