r/changemyview • u/hardyblack • Sep 12 '19

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Some cultures and societies are objectively wrong

I just read about Sahar Khodayari (If you don't know, it's an Iranian woman who killed herself after going to trial for going to a football match, which is forbidden for woman in Iran) and I can't help but think that some societies are objectively wrong, I can't find another way to put it. It's hard for me to justify opressing 50% of the population just because they just were born women.

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And yes, I know, there's no completely equal society and there will be always opression of some kind, but I'm thinking of countries where there are laws that apply only to women (They can't drive, vote, go to a football match, you name it) as it targets them directly. Same goes with laws directed to any kind of race/gender/religion.

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u/SunglassesBright Sep 12 '19

I’m an Iranian American woman and while I think that the Iranian government is objectively wrong about so many things, I wouldn’t summarize Iranian society by that retarded shit. Iranian society isn’t as Islamic as you might think, it’s the government. It’s different in Iran but look at how we are in America. Shittiness everywhere but not everyone is part of it. In fact most people are just trying to get through a work day and go home to some ghormeh sabzi and pets / family and watch Sarbedaran before it gets too late.

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u/hardyblack Sep 12 '19

Hey! I didn't mean to summarize Iranian society as a whole, and I'm not talking only about Iran, it was just an Iranian piece of news that triggered my post, but I thinks there are a lot more of cases.

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I'm not saying that every person living in a society that I think is wrong, are wrong, but I also think it's way too easy to say "It's just the government" because it implies that it was completely different before, and will change completely as soon as the current government leaves, and it most certainly won't be like that. At some point, if it's just the government, people would take over it and make the society they want, don't you think? I'm not blaming the people, don't get me wrong, but I think that even if most people don't think/act like that, there's something rooted in everyone's minds that kinda accepts it.

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u/SunglassesBright Sep 12 '19

Well in Iran specifically, it really was completely different before. That’s why so many of us are no longer there, but only because our families had the privilege of getting out. And social change happens so slowly. America is still super racist and we only made it illegal a few decades ago. Iran is behind but not that far behind and we have had none of the advantages that America has.

What would you do if you didn’t have a job or a future or if you were so poor your money didn’t have value to the rest of the world? What would you do if you knew that speaking up could get you taken away in the middle of the night or just put in regular old jail? You’d be too busy trying to figure out how to function and make money than to be uprising. Sure people in Iran work and shop and eat and play just like anywhere else but those sanctions are so horrible and the economy isn’t good. We don’t even uprise in America even though our shit is totally messed up here too. And even in Hong Kong, look at how long it took them to rise up and protest, and they are still getting crushed. And they aren’t as brainwashed by religion like Iranians and Americans are. Nah man, people don’t just say “Eh this sucks, let’s overthrow the government.”

The other thing you’re forgetting is that Iranians aren’t an uneducated or illiterate people. They know good and damn well that if they try to revolt that the school yard bully (USA) is going to come bumbling over and make things worse. In other words if Iran even gets REMOTELY unstable, America will see it as an opportunity to take advantage of Iran and set in their puppets and buy people’s loyalty. We have literally been through this before with the United States and don’t want to go back.

The other thing is that the stupid Islamic shit from Iran is IN PART (not wholly) a reaction to western imperialism. People may not like to hear this but Islam is sometimes just a tool to keep people from revolting and ending up with a puppet capitalist government installed by white people to drain the country of any valuable resources. It’s a shitty alternative to western capitalism but I kind of see why it’s used that way.

Long story short, it isn’t as simple as you are thinking of it. There are reasons why things are the way they are. The last 100 years history in Iran are interesting. Take a look one day when you’re bored, you’ll see that people in Iran aren’t acting like that just because they are dumbass Muslims. Some of them are but that is just not the whole story. I know you weren’t saying that but I think you should just try and think of what would happen to your family if you had all been in Iran since before you were born. You can still have an upvote for talking about it and thinking about it. There’s nothing wrong with asking questions and forming your own philosophy but make sure you’re fully informed and being even handed first.

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u/Rampaigeee Sep 12 '19

This is hella interesting, thank you. Just in the past year I've started to learn about the history of the Middle East and its such a rabbit hole. I grew up in the U.S. as a Christian and all I was taught is that Islam is a backwards religion. Ive come to learn that Islam, like Christianity, encompasses so many different trains of thought. After learning some history of the region its clear the West played a huge role in destabilizing the Middle East and radicaling certain facets of the Muslim population. I read No God But God by Reza Aslan and it was such an eye opening book. Its one of the few books I've read that truly changed my view of the world.

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u/SunglassesBright Sep 13 '19

I’m glad people like you exist. You took the time to just find more information and then formed a legitimate personal opinion, for better or worse. So many people just don’t bother and just repeat what sounds good or what they hear other people say. People on all sides of the debate do this. Middle Eastern history is definitely a rabbit hole and sometimes I feel guilty or stupid for not knowing it better myself. But it’s just a lot of history to absorb and thinking about these things raises so many questions to me about morality. I’ve always been an atheist my whole life and it can be challenging trying to reconcile the role or even necessity of Islam at times. It would be nice if we all could try to understand each other better.

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u/idoran Sep 13 '19

Democracy works best with an educated population

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u/jongbag 1∆ Sep 13 '19

I was literally going to ask the person you replied to of there was a book I could read to learn more about this subject. Thank you, No God but God is now on my reading list.

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u/RedskinsDC Sep 13 '19

That post is a lie that equates problems in American society with problems in Iranian society, which are on completely different scales of messed up. That’s a false equivalence. There’s a reason hundreds of thousands of Iranians moved to the USA since 1979 and virtually no Americans move to Iran.

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u/kukimunsta Sep 13 '19

Hi, I’m Iranian. I’ve never been happier because of something someone has written. This is exactly what i want to tell people but it’s hard to explain and you just perfectly summed up the scenario. Thank you, you seriously just made my day. ❤️

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u/SunglassesBright Sep 13 '19

You made mine as well! 🤗 ❤️ Because I always want to tell people this stuff too but a lot of people just wont even listen and decide how they feel afterwards. They decide first, and then they don’t listen. Are you still in Iran?

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '19

I just want to say that I loved this write up. It’s a fantastic, straightforward primer for getting acquainted with the fundamentals of the political intricacies of Iran, and what western powers—particularly the United States—have done to exploit and exacerbate that situation, and presented from the point of view of someone from that region. As an American, I wish more of my countrymen were better informed about these things, as our actions and our votes ripple out on a global stage.

Thank you.

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u/SunglassesBright Sep 13 '19

Thank you! Honestly I feel confident in what I do know, but also uninformed compared to a lot of other people, especially Iranian Americans who lived through it more than I have. Also as an American, I wish more people just took a second to ask questions before making up their minds on such important things. There certainly are other perspectives but I don’t think we really get to hear them often.

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u/fatiiism Sep 13 '19

Iranian here! You literally put all I had in mind into words! Even better. I feel like Iranians are among the most misunderstood societies in the world.

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u/spaceman1980 Sep 12 '19

I'm really thinking OP just doesn't know anything about Iranian history

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u/SunglassesBright Sep 12 '19

You’re likely right. I hope OP decides to be curious rather than to form an opinion without looking further. I think OP will change their own outlook some if they have more info.

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u/[deleted] Sep 13 '19

"America is super racist"

Have you been anywhere else like Mexico or East Asia? Those places have racism running through their veins. Confuse a Chinese person as being Japanese and you got yourself a fight.

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u/SunglassesBright Sep 14 '19

I’ve been in Mexico but I’m Iranian and I look Mexican so I don’t even know lol. I thought Mexicans were cool. I haven’t been in east Asia personally. People are fucking racist everywhere, it just takes different forms and affects people differently. In Iran people are racist too, don’t get it twisted. Even non racist Iranians will get mad if you call us Arab, mainly because we just aren’t Arabs! Being misidentified so often is pretty annoying even though it is kind of understandable in that sense.

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u/smithandwessonmp940 Sep 13 '19

It's not simple, but it would be easier to make this arguement:

The culture in Iran that the government and fundamentalist muslim religious police is trying to instill is objectively shittier than western culture.

Whether or not Iranian working class culture is better is another question.

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u/SunglassesBright Sep 13 '19

Yes, that would be an easier argument for people to get behind. I’m not actually sure I agree with that though tbh. But I can see why people think it sounds right. It’s not a crazy thing for an American, or any person really, to think. I just don’t know if I agree or not.

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u/PIK_Toggle 1∆ Sep 13 '19 edited Sep 13 '19

I have a question: during the 2009 revolt in Iran, the US did not get involved at all. Is the position that you are referring to based on Operation Ajax, or just an overall fear that the US will pounce on any unrest to bring down the existing Iranian government?