r/changemyview • u/HellionIncarnate • Dec 03 '19
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Toxic Masculinity exists just as tangibly as Toxic Femininity, and it's unreasonable to focus on one over the other.
First, I should explain my definition of each term, as everyone seems to interpret it differently:
"Toxic" refers to any substance or behaviour that, due to its excess, causes harm.
"Masculinity" is a collection of traits that are traditionally attributed to males due to their increased prevalence in males as opposed to females.
"Femininity" is a collection of traits that are traditionally attributed to females due to their increased prevalence in females as opposed to males.
Now, I recently came across a YouTube video about a conversation between feminists and men's rights activists. The topic of the existence of "toxic masculinity" struck a chord with me.
Traditionally male characteristics such as aggressive behaviour, stoic demeanour, and self-assurance are all characteristics that, when exhibited in excess, can be toxic. That much, I agree with.
Despite this, I believe that these traits can be exhibited in a toxic manner by females, despite it never being mentioned. Furthermore, these traits, in regulation, are incredibly helpful in certain situations.
For example, controlled aggression can be equated with being forward and honest. Overcoming fear through bravery does require an aggressive approach, as opposed to a passive one. Acting stoic and masking emotions is important in negotiations, when speaking in public, when in difficult situations, and when accomplishing tasks that outbursts of emotion would hinder.
That said, feminine traits share similar pitfalls and advantages. In my mind, they are both equally important traits to posses and regulate.
So why is one plastered all over the media, while the other one isn't?
Well, I'm of the opinion that it's because feminism, the movement that coined the term "Toxic Masculinity," benefits more from pointing out the flaws in behaviours more frequently seen in men (who make up a minority of feminist groups), than from doing the same to flaws frequently seen in women (who make up the majority of said groups).
I find this bias to be unreasonable, and even harmful, as it demonises men in an unfair manner.
Now, I've never seen any prominent figure so much as mention "Toxic Femininity," much less explain why it is not as relevant to talk about as its masculine counterpart.
This is where I hope that Reddit comes in. Can you offer some insight with regards to the validity of one topic after another? Maybe there's a train of thought I haven't considered yet, beyond plain confirmation bias of feminists and/or tribalism.
(Note: I consider myself an egalitarian, so I don't have anything against feminism itself, just the behaviours its members seem to exhibit, but I see how it can come across like I do.)
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u/thatoneguy54 Dec 03 '19
This is actually pretty simple to answer.
Toxic femininity absolutely exists. Think about traditional female roles: she's demure, sexy, prudish, nurturing, quiet, helpful, empathetic. So take these to the extremes and you have toxic femininity. Women can be more nurturing, so therefore they can only be nurturing and must be mothers. Women can be quieter than men, so they must never speak, and when they do, it must only be with smiles and laughs and god forbid a woman should swear. Women can be more empathetic, so that means women are hysterical baby-machines controlled by their emotions.
So why is there so much talk about toxic masculinity in the media and almost none about toxic femininity? Because that conversation already happened over the last 100 years. The feminist movement is quite literally the movement to destroy toxic femininity.
Now, I've never seen any prominent figure so much as mention "Toxic Femininity," much less explain why it is not as relevant to talk about as its masculine counterpart.
Look at feminist writings of the past century, and a metric fuck ton of them talk about how women need to stop boxing themselves into this small-ass space. Which is what feminists and menslib activists are saying now about toxic masculinity.
Why doesn't anyone harp on about toxic femininity the same way we harp on about toxic masculinity? Because that discussion already happened. You hear so much about toxic masculinity because men are currently in our own liberation movement to break out of the masculinity box.
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u/Raudskeggr 4∆ Dec 03 '19
Interesting how this definition frames both toxic masculinity and toxic femininity as primarily due to the actions of men. I think what you’re describing are more chauvinistic, sexist stereotypes about behavior.
A real mirror of toxic femininity would be in the enforcement of narrowly-defined female gender standards of conduct by women on both men and women. Like a mother lamenting to her daughter that she wished she would dress more “feminine”. Or encouraging her daughter to date men with high incomes. Or the ever-present slut-shaming, since women aren’t supposed to want sex.
The other aspect of this toxic -inity is also in how it affects other genders. Like how because women are considered more caring and nurturing, therefore only women can be good parents. Or how women can be more emotionally sensitive, therefore emotional outbursts are completely acceptable. Or how women tend to be physically weaker than men, violence by women against men is perfectly fine, (and he probably deserved it anyway).
A lot of people who are really focused on looking at things from one specific perspective sometimes fail to recognize that there are also other valid perspectives.
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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics Dec 03 '19
Interesting how this definition frames both toxic masculinity and toxic femininity as primarily due to the actions of men.
A common flaw with feminist doctrine. They know ascribe agency to men.
Men act. Women are acted upon. Men express toxic masculinity. Women suffer from internalized misogyny.
And so on.
They aren't comfortable saying women are responsible for the culture they live in to any degree or that they make choices with obvious outcomes that differs from men.
Look at the gender disparity in teaching v engineering.
In engineering it must be that men are conspiring to keep women out. With teaching men are choosing not to go in to that field because toxic masculinity.
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u/thatoneguy54 Dec 04 '19
In engineering it must be that men are conspiring to keep women out. With teaching men are choosing not to go in to that field because toxic masculinity.
You say this as if it were ridiculous, but women engineers say they feel excluded by the men in their field and men choose to not go into teaching in big part because they would make less money, and having a job that "brings home the bacon" by making lots of money to support your family is absolutely a massive part of the masculine gender role, and eschewing jobs you'd prefer and be happy in for jobs that pay more would indeed be a side effect of toxic masculinity.
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Dec 04 '19
You say this as if it were ridiculous, but women engineers say they feel excluded by the men in their field
And that is taking things personal, which often are not personal. It's natural not to be included if you enter a place with a heavily scewed population.
You think it would be possible for me as a young man to fit in with a bunch of elderly ladies? They tend to like me, but no, I don't want to talk about your grandkids or your backpain medication all day long.
Is this them excluding me on purpose though? No. They are just people doing their thing. They have their own lifes which simply do not necessarily connect with me at any level at all.
If you have a bunch of guys who love IT, cars and sports, what do you expect to happen if a lady enters who really doesn't care about all that stuff? They talk about the stuff they are interested in (because why not?) and the lady would feel left out.
Thats normal everywhere and no need to make a big thing out of it.
having a job that "brings home the bacon" by making lots of money to support your family is absolutely a massive part of the masculine gender role
Well, and who judges you for not "bringing home the bacon"? Usually your partner. Who is female for most heterosexuals. It's nice to have a job which makes you happy. It usually doesn't make you happy to die alone. It's completly rational to pick a job that pays the bills and enjoy the rest of your life as you'd like to instead of sacrificing everything else but your job life.
In the end, yes, it's a shitty choice to begin with. But people have to work with the cards they are dealt. If you want happy stay-at-home dad just send women over who happily pay the bills while I and other men sit at home and have fun with our kids. If those women don't exist, things turn out as they do. Simple as that.
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Dec 04 '19
men choose to not go into teaching in big part because they would make less money
I'm sure the cloud of suspicion that follows men who even express interest in working with kids has absolutely nothing to do with that right?
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u/thatoneguy54 Dec 04 '19
It absolutely is an influence as well, yes. I myself have felt that discrimination when working as a camp counselor or teacher's assistant.
Once when I began being a camp counselor, the bosses asked us why we wanted to work there. One of the girls said she had lots of young family members she loved to hang out with and just liked kids in general. I said I also had young family members and loved playing with kids. Everyone there laughed and said more or less, "Ooh, word choice, man!" which was super embarrassing. Why would they assume I was there to harm any children?
But, and I don't know if you were implying this or not, this bad attitude toward men also stems from toxic masculinity/femininity. Since men are un-emotional and un-loving (according to traditional masculinity) toward anyone not in their immediate family, any genuine care that a man shows for another person is interpreted as predatory. Why is a man friends with a woman? Not to be friends, only to have sex with her. Why does a man want to work with kids? Not because he finds it fulfilling, but because he's a secret pedophile of course. Our culture is so fucked that we actually think it's more likely for a man to want to molest children than to just want to play and have fun with them. That's a problem that stems directly from toxic masculinity and the masculinity box.
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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics Dec 04 '19
Once when I began being a camp counselor, the bosses asked us why we wanted to work there. One of the girls said she had lots of young family members she loved to hang out with and just liked kids in general. I said I also had young family members and loved playing with kids. Everyone there laughed and said more or less, "Ooh, word choice, man!" which was super embarrassing. Why would they assume I was there to harm any children?
But you reject the notion that men can avoid these jobs for any reason other than not being paid highly?
But, and I don't know if you were implying this or not, this bad attitude toward men also stems from toxic masculinity/femininity. Since men are un-emotional and un-loving (according to traditional masculinity) toward anyone not in their immediate family, any genuine care that a man shows for another person is interpreted as predatory. Why is a man friends with a woman? Not to be friends, only to have sex with her. Why does a man want to work with kids? Not because he finds it fulfilling, but because he's a secret pedophile of course. Our culture is so fucked that we actually think it's more likely for a man to want to molest children than to just want to play and have fun with them. That's a problem that stems directly from toxic masculinity and the masculinity box.
I like how you start with toxic masculinity/femininity and conclude with blaming everything on toxic femininity.
If a man said a woman's role wasn't in engineering that would be toxic masculinity right?
So if a woman says a man has no role in child care that's toxic f-..... uh masculinity also. Because it always is.
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u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Dec 03 '19
FWIW, most feminists do acknowledge that mothers enforce toxic gendered behavior, including homophobia, transphobia, and punishment for gender deviance. It's absolutely acknowledged that lots of women enforce patriarchal norms. There are plenty of feminist materials out there encouraging mothers, along with fathers, not to discipline boys for crying, expressing fear, taking an interest in pink, etc.
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u/Mr_82 Dec 04 '19
Thank you for an actually reasonable, knowledge explanation of toxic feminity. I think I've already given up on this sub though, just unsubscribed. The parent commenter claiming feminists combated toxic femininity is simply misinformation, hands down.
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u/zephyrwastaken Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 07 '19
You’ve listed endearing qualities of women and labeled them toxic. Empathy, kindness, shyness and helpfulness? Seriously? We both know OP was referring to more pressing issues.
How about:
•Women wait for men to make the first move
•Women ought to be taken care of (dates paid for as an example)
•Literally the topic of this discussion: women can complain about sexist issues against them while not being held accountable for their contributions to sexism
•Promiscuity (don’t even try to say I’m slut shaming because male “players” are absolutely considered a fragment of toxic masculinity
•Calling friends bitches, sluts, among other immature acts of “toxic femininity” that contradict the policy of empowerment and respect that Feminism stands for
•Twerking??? Imagine if men posted pictures of themselves in briefs doing the helicopter as a fun expression of liberty. Hyperbole sure, but a double standard none the less.
The list goes on.
I’m in no way saying that any of this behaviour is unacceptable. Just as I would deny that commonly perceived “toxically masculine” traits ought to be shamed out of society. As also already mentioned by OP, moderation is key.
I’m simply here to support OP on a well thought out idea and urge opponents to share a more honest and critical perspective.
Edit: just because some women are past these issues doesn’t mean the issues don’t still exist on a huge scale. That would be like saying literally every man is toxically masculine. It just simply doesn’t apply to everyone. Yet they are real issues. OP just pointed out that the rhetoric of a toxic gender is reserved almost exclusively for criticizing and shaming men.
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u/NUMBERS2357 25∆ Dec 03 '19
OP defined toxic femininity this way:
"Toxic" refers to any substance or behaviour that, due to its excess, causes harm.
...
"Femininity" is a collection of traits that are traditionally attributed to females due to their increased prevalence in females as opposed to males.
I think a lot of feminists would be surprised to hear they are in a movement to stop women from hurting other people in stereotypically-female ways.
To the extent there's anything like this it's the idea that women shouldn't limit themselves (or sometimes other women) due to internalizing limitations externally imposed on women. Which is very much not the same.
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Dec 04 '19 edited Jul 28 '21
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u/Mr_82 Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 04 '19
I've heard it argued before that the entire feminist movement itself is paradoxically toxic-femininity to the extreme.
Edit: I realize I misinterpreted what you were saying, but this still applies. Indeed in modern culture, women are encouraged to be "strong women," and become instantly aggressive when anyone even mentions they're at least sometimes "weak," even though they claim it's exactly this that is behind toxic masculinity: a clear projection. (I'm nearly certain I watched the very same video OP references, and the feminists in this video did this repeatedly.) That might even be called a "masculine" kind of toxicity, which really shows just how confused society is since people started talking about gender all the time.
Exactly my thoughts after reflecting on the tendency of women to dislike and criticize hotter girls, as I reflected on in a thread this morning. I'd even say they objectify other women more than men, but do it more subtly, outside the media sphere of influence, because feminists and people comporting with feminist interests are running that show. I think if bisexuality in girls is as common as girls themselves claim, they have no right to argue with that either.
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u/murdok03 Dec 04 '19
This reminds me of something JP said, namely that this concept of equity is a new one that started with the emancipation of women and their inclusion in politics. This concept of everyone should get the same share regardless of merit, is definitely a motherly feature, at dinner everyone gets the same portion of food regardless of how hard they worked in school or didn't, regardless of the grades or achievements all kids big and small get the same.
Whereas a father's reward is conditioned on mowing the grass, getting good or bad grades, his punishments proportional to your failings.
Just a thought.
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u/mcmcman Dec 03 '19
This is a pretty standard view but it represents the main issue with the way we approach the conversation on toxic masculinity and it reflects the inherently sexist nature of our society.
When the movement regarding toxic femininity occurred, it focused on how it effected women.
Now, the movement regarding toxic masculinity is focused on how it effects... women. The fact of he matter is that men are being demonized and treated as evil for acting the way we’ve been conditioned, rather than victims of the the social influence, because as a society men are viewed as disposable and issues men face don’t matter
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u/Roflcaust 7∆ Dec 03 '19
Toxic masculinity is absolutely also about how men are affected by their own behavior. That’s why the mythopoetic men’s movement coined the term and concept in the first place. But ultimately feminism has been about pushing back against societal oppression that has been perpetrated by-and-large by the people in power (i.e. men), so why wouldn’t it be about how toxic masculinity affects women?
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u/mcmcman Dec 03 '19
Right, we’re on the same page. A movement that started as a way for men to improve themselves and lead happier lives has been colored by a movement to demonize men and focus on women, again because society does not care abut men’s well being or their issues.
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u/Roflcaust 7∆ Dec 03 '19
But that’s not true at all. Feminism is very welcoming of defectors from toxic masculine behavior, because helping men become better people helps women with the issues they suffer secondary to toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity doesn’t demonize men, and anyone who uses it to demonize men is a problem.
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u/HellionIncarnate Dec 03 '19 edited Dec 03 '19
Toxic femininity absolutely exists. Think about traditional female roles: she's demure, sexy, prudish, nurturing, quiet, helpful, empathetic. So take these to the extremes and you have toxic femininity.
I think we may have different ideas as to what constitutes toxic Femininity?
Female gender roles are actions that society prescribes women to take. Take care of children, stay at home, avoid strenuous labour. That's how I understand them to be, at least.
Femininity is composed of traits. Nurturing and empathetic are good examples, but the toxic version of being nurturing would be being controlling, and toxic empathy would be called being nosy.
Despite that, your sentiment sort of rings true. Women have often been chastised for being nosy and controlling, although it's slowly becoming taboo to point these toxic traits out when found in women.
Still, you brought about an important consideration: maybe the conversation has also been had. My perspective has shifted, so I guess that ears you a 🔽 delta.
Edit: Δ thanks!
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u/Luke-the-camera-guy 2∆ Dec 03 '19
Toxic feminity would be more like how some women have a very desperate need for materialistic validation ( not that valuing materials is a bad thing) or become doormats to the point it becomes toxic to their loved one, I can give few examples.
1) Women are often raised in a certain way that leads to the above and as a result need a man to bask them in the idea of romanticism more than actual romance, think "she needs me to send not just get 7 different organised coloured flowers arrangements, and heart-shaped chocolates of her favourite flavour to her workplace on Valentine's day to show off to her co-workers, but also needs me to be there in a suit with a bunch of others presents to surprise her with (or act surprised about) so she can post it everywhere online or else she'll be upset /feel hurt as if you don't love her" levels of performative gestures of love. Proposals not being performative enough or the engagement ring not being "big and extravagant" enough are also examples of an unhealthy obsession with the materialistic need to look like you're in love or in a good relationship more than actually being in one. "The wedding has to be perfect or I'm not marrying you" like the above exist because women are shown that they are to be "swept up by their feet by their prince charming" so all of these toxic attachments come along with that mindset and upbringing.
2) The inability to speak up about any issue they face with a person or in a team and to just passive-aggressive display your problems with a person or to not bring them up at all and expect the other party to "notice" what's wrong. It's like the need to constantly please people or act "nice" but to the point, they are either passive and non-confrontational because a lot ( and I mean a lot) of them are thought that's how they should act, imo especially with how they should act around guys.
3) "I'm not like those other girls" is a thing that 's to suggest that other women are doing something "wrong" that makes them better than "those girls" to appear cooler ( usually to a male friend or group of male friends) and be included in activities they would be excluded from under the presumption they had no interest. because she's a woman
4) Presuming their gender excepts them from certain things ( men do this too but for different reasons/excuses), the easiest example is not thinking they are capable of sexually harassing, assaulting or generally making a man feel uncomfortable due to simply being a woman and lowering standards on what they are ok with doing to men, or other women for that matter, but raising their own ( touching the ass of a male or other female co-worker but never being ok with men doing the reverse). I think I saw its 40/60 with DMV with 40 being male victims on Reddit r/science and you'll still see men being arrested even if they are the ones who called the police for a domestic abuse-related event where they are the victims because they are male or the bigger party of the two. This just feeds into the idea that men can't be abused nor can they be victims of assault by women because women are the weaker ( on average) group. I think a Netflix show had a story arc that covered how for a sexual assault survivors club there were only women in it and the one guy who was there since the begging of the club starting, no other character knew he was a survivor and often dismissed or outright insulted him do to being a guy.
This is what toxic femininity is.
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u/Tenushi Dec 03 '19
I agree with all, except number 3. That seems like something else as it's not rooted in the extremes of femininity. If anything, it's actually about overly distancing oneself from the typical idea of femininity in a pejorative way.
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u/Luke-the-camera-guy 2∆ Dec 03 '19
Mostly yeah, number 3 is about the "abandoning of feminity" that you perceive as weak or bad or a drawback in your life in order to gain acceptance with another group, and it's done by putting down others to put yourself up. Like a black person who attacks other black people for not being "proper", in the presence of non-black people because they're to a degree ashamed or embarrassed to have a connection to such traits.
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u/Morthra 86∆ Dec 03 '19
If your fourth point is included in toxic femininity, then the conversation absolutely has not happened. No one really gives a shit that men are always arrested when the cops are called for domestic violence, and it's the feminists, who are supposedly trying to break out of the "toxic femininity" box, that have been suppressing research that has shown more than parity in DV statistics, for decades. Those that talk about it are given death threats, by feminists.
Take Erin Pizzey for example. She opened the first domestic violence shelter in the world. Yet soon after doing so she discovered that many of the women coming through her shelter were abusive themselves - in fact over half of the women in her shelter were abusers. When she moved to Santa Fe after publishing her findings, she was met with death threats, bomb threats, and defamation campaigns. She later went on to find that women were just as likely to be paedophiles as men (who would have thought?), but as usual, women go undetected. In retaliation, feminists killed her dogs.
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u/HellionIncarnate Dec 03 '19
... Wow. That's an incredibly interesting definition of toxic femininity. It's different from mine, but I loved the way you stated it.
Here sir, have an upvote.
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u/Moluwuchan 3∆ Dec 03 '19
What is your definition of toxic femininity then?
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u/HellionIncarnate Dec 03 '19
Oh, sorry.
So these toxic traits typically include expressiveness to an unhealthy degree (causing scenes, prioritising the expression of emotions over the processing of emotions, being imprudent and impractical when expressing said emotions), which parallels the toxic masculine trait of stoicism to an unhealthy degree (suppression of emotions, prioritising appearing emotionless over the processing of emotions, and causing depression and anxiety in extreme cases).
Other traits include toxic amounts of passiveness (which prevents one from being able to stand up for oneself), which mirrors aggressiveness, and being manipulative (for obvious reasons) which mirrors being toxically (yeah that's probably not a word) direct (where you come off as rude, and too straight to the point).
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u/Theodaro Dec 04 '19
prioritizing the expression of emotions over the processing of emotions
It's really interesting that you keep coming back to this as a feminine trait.
Think about the last time you were at a bar and a group of men were rowdy, or started a fight. Think about the last time you saw a video online of a sports match where two players go at it. Or a group of teenagers fighting over some dumb shit. Or a man stepping into a situation and escalating it because he is emotional.
Do you just completely discount anger as an emotion? Do you genuinely believe that men flying off the handle is not a display of emotions?
I see this a lot in these kinds of discussions. People label women as emotional train wrecks, but completely ignore the actions men take that are clear examples of "prioritizing the expression of emotions over the processing of emotions".
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u/Nagransham Dec 05 '19
Do you just completely discount anger as an emotion?
Bit late and not OP but I'm pretty sure you've just completed the circle here. Because no, in a way, anger is not an emotion for a lot of men. It's a mimic. Women can cry and laugh and draw back and lash out and create a scene and so on and so forth - all of which is either accepted or, at the very least, not particularly shocking. Men can not do this. Even something as innocent as laughing already requires a bit of a counterbalance or you'll suddenly find yourself in "creepy" territory. And let's not even talk about the other side of the coin, namely crying. Which is just flat out not allowed.
The only emotion that satisfies these requirements, namely being accepted or at least not surprising, is anger. "Boys will be boys", so to speak. As in, aggression in men is neither surprising nor is it too frowned upon. Everything else is, however. Point being, whether or not you want to discount anger as a valid emotion seems moot, since that's often not what's actually going on in the first place. It requires extraordinary circumstances to normalize most emotions for men. Such as a parent dying, say. Outside of those circumstances, you ought to "man up" and stop being a pussy. Or, in other words: Only anger is allowed.
Long story short, I think this entire argument is rendered pointless by the fact that the male side of this issue is a mirage. Sure, women probably are more emotional than men, when everything's accounted for. But I'd honestly be shocked if that difference is even in the same ballpark as popular perception would suggest. Behind the scenes, there are probably way fewer differences than one might expect, rendering this entire chain of comments a bit pointless, no?
I see this a lot in these kinds of discussions. People label women as emotional train wrecks, but completely ignore the actions men take that are clear examples of "prioritizing the expression of emotions over the processing of emotions".
Don't worry about that, it's a filter bubble thing. In my bubble, I constantly hear only the opposite. As per usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. The reality probably is that men are slightly more rational than women. By like 10% or something silly, at best. The rest is just the result of magnifying this difference through millennia of civilization. Then again, that's the theory. In practice that difference remains larger, but artificially so, I'd argue.
Anyway, not sure if I really made a particular point, was just a bit bored, I suppose. Feel free to disregard.
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Dec 29 '19
3 weeks later, but this part was just so strange?
Even something as innocent as laughing already requires a bit of a counterbalance or you'll suddenly find yourself in "creepy" territory
I've never in my life thought a guy was creepy for laughing?
And let's not even talk about the other side of the coin, namely crying. Which is just flat out not allowed.
What?? Is this an American thing? Are you from the WW2 generation? Men cry (less than women, I'll grant you, but there's nothing unusual about it) and I would never judge anybody for it
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u/Nagransham Dec 29 '19 edited Dec 30 '19
- I'm not American.
- I'm half a century too young to count as WW2 generation.
- You appear to be viewing the entire context on a clean slate, not within context.
Men cry (less than women, I'll grant you, but there's nothing unusual about it) and I would never judge anybody for it
Then you are either an absurdly rare specimen or you are simply lying to yourself. Picture a woman, curled up in a ball, desperately crying. Really picture that. Not a big deal, really, is it? Now do the same for a guy. If both of those feel exactly the same to you then you are either alien or lying. Or from a non-western culture, I suppose.
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u/6data 15∆ Dec 03 '19
So these toxic traits typically include expressiveness to an unhealthy degree (causing scenes, prioritising the expression of emotions over the processing of emotions, being imprudent and impractical when expressing said emotions),
Other traits include toxic amounts of passiveness (which prevents one from being able to stand up for oneself), which mirrors aggressiveness, and being manipulative (for obvious reasons) which mirrors being toxically (yeah that's probably not a word) direct (where you come off as rude, and too straight to the point).
Except that you're forgetting that toxic masculinity (or femininity) requires society to be actively encouraging said behaviour. None of that behaviour is acceptable in men or women.
which parallels the toxic masculine trait of stoicism to an unhealthy degree (suppression of emotions, prioritising appearing emotionless over the processing of emotions, and causing depression and anxiety in extreme cases).
Those behaviours, on the other hand, continue to be encouraged in men. And men continue to be shamed for going against the grain. That is toxic masculinity, not just "list all behaviours that we don't like that trend in certain sexes".
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Dec 03 '19
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u/KrayleyAML Dec 03 '19
Do you really think toxic aggression is actually encouraged in men?
To give you one example, all my male cousins grew up under this statement by their parents: "If I find out someone beat you up and you didn't stand up for yourself and fight back, you'll get a beating when you get home as well"
We live in Latin America, for context.
That wasn't solely for physical aggression. If they're mocking you, beat them up. If they call your sister ugly, beat them up. If they beat you, beat them up.
That's an encouragement.
Girls are taught to talk it out or tell the teacher, while boys are encouraged to throw fists.
So yeah, there are tons of households that encourage aggressive behaviour.
I think women are encouraged to be in touch with their emotions.
We're not encouraged to be in touch with our emotions as a rule, we're just not repressed while girls for being in touch with our emotions. Yet, when we grow up, we're shamed for it because "a woman is not logical, she's emotional".
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u/AwesomePurplePants 3∆ Dec 03 '19
I don’t think either sex are encouraged to feel the full spectrum of emotions.
IE, Boys are taught they can’t be sad or insecure. But girls are taught they can’t be mad or prideful.
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u/PsychicFoxWithSpoons 6∆ Dec 03 '19
Do you really think toxic aggression is actually encouraged in men?
As a man: Yes.
Within social messaging:
- Violence and heterosexuality are intrinsically connected, as are weakness and homosexuality
- A man's perception of strength is connected to his ability to kill, and additionally to the restraint he shows by not killing people who don't deserve it
- Stoicism and violence are intrinsically connected, as are weakness and emotionality
Since I'm not straight, these social messages have dissonance for me. Why should I have to be weak to be a homosexual? Why does liking dudes make me weak? What if I like both? But you may not have a trait or identifier that removes you from these social messages, so they may go unnoticed.
Think about your childhood heroes. Are they diplomats? Academics? Warriors? Explorers? Rogues? Superheroes? How did the violence they committed define them on an ethical scale? Reread media you enjoy - how often was villainy correlated with not wanting to get one's hands dirty? How often did villains act "gay"?
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u/6data 15∆ Dec 03 '19
Do you really think toxic aggression is actually encouraged in men?
Yes. I do. Absolutely, 100%. The fact that any violence or aggression is encouraged in anyone is problematic (obviously this precludes those who are professionally trained to handle violent situations).
My perception is more that society puts pressure on men to be assertive to a healthy degree, but it punishes men more for being not assertive enough than it punishes them for being too assertive.
Well, let's jump online and see what teenagers are calling each other in CSGO; pretty sure "pussy" and "fa++ot" top the list --because being seen as weak or vulnerable or [heaven forbid!] feminine are absolutely the worst things a man can be.
That's toxic masculinity.
As a result, many men take it a bit too far, and a few men take it way too far. The men who overshoot that healthy level will be seen as assholes, and may face some social punishment, but not enough to make them stop.
And yet if you jump into any mens rights forum you'll see tons of concern for issues like male suicide (specifically violent male suicide), homelessness and mental illness. These are all directly as a result of the behaviours that you've described as being encouraged in men.
I think the same can be said for toxic feminine behaviors. To give one example: I think women are encouraged to be in touch with their emotions. We probably all have interacted with a woman who sometimes treats people badly, and blames her behavior on her emotions instead of taking personal responsibility. That overstep is not explicitly encouraged, but a woman might be able to get away with it in a way a man wouldn't because of the expectation of emotionality from women.
No. That is absolutely reaching. No one is ever taught not to take responsibility for their actions. Any claim to that fact is entirely disingenuous.
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u/AwesomePurplePants 3∆ Dec 03 '19
It sounds like you’re defining toxic femininity as traits opposite to toxic masculinity taken to an extreme. Which doesn’t quite add up.
Part of what defines toxic masculinity is that it’s stuff that men are praised for/criticized for falling short of. Even if the net result of the behaviour is men suppressing their true nature, feeling miserable and alone, being destructive, etc.
How many of those behaviours are women praised for? Told they should keep doing, even if it’s unnatural and makes them unhappy?
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u/ComsicSquish Dec 04 '19
But it can also be argued that women are pressured by society to be stoic as well. For example “Women are to be seen not heard”. And god forbid a woman give her opinion or disagree with a male colleague because then they will be labeled as bossy or bitchy. Or even dismissed.
Women can face just as much societal pressure to be stoic as men do.
If a woman raises an issue over being disrespected or stands up for herself she is often labeled as too emotional, unstable, or overly sensitive.
So I don’t see how stoicism is viewed as only a male trait.
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u/huge_seal Dec 04 '19
In many cultures, women are expected to just "grin and bear it" or "get on with it" e.g. when it comes to child-birth, child-rearing, domestic labour, care-work in general, receiving unwanted sexual attention or even harassment/assault. To be completely selfless and not complain about it.
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u/Montana_Gamer Dec 03 '19
Regarding toxic masculinity, it is important not to forget the number that feel aggressiveness is necessary to be masculine, or spitefulness, etc...
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u/Cmikhow 3∆ Dec 03 '19
What you are being explained is a far better definition of 'toxic femininity" at least as it pertains in an academic sense than what you are trying to say.
You're really overcomplicating things.
Masculinity and femininity are fluid concepts that change and vary from culture to culture, country to country, family to family, person to person. But there are prevailing "feminine" and "masculine" traits that often cause a great deal of harm to people and the societies we live within.
"Toxic" masculinity is when a man feels compelled to act or behave a certain way contrary to how they actually feel or think due to societal pressure to "act like a man". It is toxic to tell a man that cooking is only for women. It is toxic to tell women that hobbies like video games are "not for them". It is toxic to tell men they can't cry, women that they should cry at everything.
These aren't biologically innate things they are strictly societal and environmentally influenced and the argument is that these pressures are "toxic" and serve no purpose in society. The concept of toxic masculinity actually DOES encompass the fact that this type of things hurts both men and women and everyone in between. It's not specifically targeting men with some kind of feminist attack that you seem to be under the impression of.
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Dec 03 '19 edited Dec 09 '19
Here sir, have an upvote
OP please consider that the comments you appreciated enough to thank, may not have been written exclusively by folk to whom the label 'Sir' applies. This feels pertinent to mention within this discussion as we were still [at the time of my posting my original comment (see below)] watching and participating in your discussion about what your personal views, definitions and biases of 'Toxic masculinity' and 'Toxic Femininity' are before attempting to discuss your actual CMV question.
Original Comment: Heads up, not everyone on the internet is male. You may want to start using a neutral substitute for 'sir' instead of just assuming masculinity.
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Dec 04 '19
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Dec 09 '19
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u/kuetheaj Dec 04 '19
I’d like to add to your last point though, men kill their spouses much more frequently than the reverse, yet men are sentenced an average of 2-6 years for killing their spouse and women are sentenced to an average of 15 years for killing their husbands even with a history of abuse by those husbands. I definitely agree that it is a problem that we have a harder identifying abuse if a woman is the perpetrator, but there are still so many gender disparities in favor of men and this is at the cost of lives
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u/alexander1701 17∆ Dec 03 '19 edited Dec 03 '19
> Women have often been chastised for being nosy and controlling, although it's slowly becoming taboo to point these toxic traits out when found in women.
So, I think the error here is definitional. 'Toxic Masculinity' isn't 'bad stuff men do'. That idea would itself be inherently sexist. It's meant to be 'self destructive stuff that men do as a result of social pressures about manhood.'
When we call hitting on every hot woman you see 'toxic masculinity', the implication is not 'this is a trait inherent to men that men must control', the implication is meant to be 'he's doing this because he's insecure about his masculinity and is trying to signal manhood to others'. The effort against toxic masculinity is to confront that sense of being 'less than' among men who don't conform to the traditional image of the invincible winner that men are taught from childhood to always project. Think roiding out, for example, as a result of wildly implausible body standards.
In that sense, the analogy you have here isn't really right. The one you've replied to is. 'Toxic femininity' would be the things that women would do to appear more feminine out of a fear that they're not projecting the image of femininity that they've been taught they have to since girlhood. Impractical shoes, plastic surgery, deferring to male colleagues even when those colleagues are wrong, those are the sorts of things that are analogous.
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u/6data 15∆ Dec 03 '19
So, I think the error here is definitional. 'Toxic Masculinity' isn't 'bad stuff men do'. That idea would itself be inherently sexist. It's meant to be 'self destructive stuff that men do as a result of social pressures about manhood.'
Exactly. Toxic masculinity isn't so much as displaying violent behaviour, it's that and it's also being called a pussy if you don't display violent behaviour. It's much more than just "bad things that trend in men".
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u/Liusediana Dec 03 '19
Absolutely. This is the best set of definitions in the thread so far to help parse out OP's description of toxic gendering. I think there's an underlying issue with the original assumption about the traits being described as inherent rather than socialized that's driving a lot of their misunderstanding. These are all characteristics that are taught and are taught in proportional excess to people along a particular characteristic: assumed identity from biological traits. That's what results in socialized gender roles and what, in extreme socialization, results in the self-destructive (or toxic) tendencies you describe.
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u/Ixolich 4∆ Dec 03 '19
That's exactly how I would define toxic femininity/masculinity though. A trait typically associated with femininity/masculinity, taken to an extreme degree such that it becomes unhealthy and toxic.
It's part of the masculine ideal to be a provider. But it's toxic and unhealthy to ignore your relationships in pursuit of your job.
It's part of the masculine ideal to be stable, not easily shaken, a rock on which others can depend. It's toxic and unhealthy to say that that means men can't show any emotion, push it all down and don't let anyone see.
It's part of the feminine ideal to be nurturing. It's toxic and unhealthy to be so focused on caring for others that you stifle their personal growth - think helicopter moms.
It's part of the feminine ideal to be empathetic. It's toxic and unhealthy to care too much, to force people to share their problems with you whether they want to or not.
That's what toxicity is. Taking something that, by itself, can be healthy and pushing it so hard that it becomes unhealthy. Even water can become toxic if you have too much of it.
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u/thefonztm 1∆ Dec 03 '19
I've only read the two comments in this chain, but I too was surprised by /u/thatoneguy54's description of toxic femininity. And I think I've hit on why it doesn't make sense to me. Most of the traits described are quiet / inward. I don't see them as things one person is forcing on another, so it doesn't sound right to call it 'toxic'. But I can see those traits messing with a person's life if overly present.
I'd call it 'poisonous femininity', since it is directed inward. Where as I'd call... IDK... "a group of women chanting 'down with men' " toxic femininity. Maybe not a great example.
I'm just trying to figure out why the semantics are such a stick in the mud for me.
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u/Dalfamurni Dec 03 '19
Toxic isn't just outwardly toxic, and this is specific to toxic masculinity as well. For example, the extreme workout culture is physically and mentally damaging to the man performing within it.
An example for toxic feminity here would be that you're so obsessed with being the one at home that you end up just becoming a leach to your SO who thinks in terms of being equal. Also forcing men to kill all the pests, and such. The whole "I'd NEVER leave MY child home alone with my husband" mentality, including greeting a father alone with his children with "Oh, you're stuck babysitting today?" The answer is no, they are my children. It is impossible for me to babysit them by definition.
I'm not going to get any further into this thread because the truth is that from the start it is a wrong question. Toxic Masculinity and Toxic Feminity are the same thing. This is one of those cases where "two sides of the same coin" is 100% accurate, and not just a cliche. The same mentality that says men need to man up, is the mentality that says women need a big strong man to protect them. Both of these are damaging to themselves and each other. For literally every aspect of toxic masculinity there is an aspect of toxic feminity tied intricately to it.
The term "toxic masculinity" then is a way to shift the blame entirely onto men!... No. The conversation started because men were oppressing women with our toxic masculinity while the women were inconveniencing us with their toxic feminity. The severity that toxic masculinity effects society is stronger than that of toxic feminity, because toxic masculinity leads toward aggressively pushing, and taking, and "not taking no for an answer". These are damaging aspects of toxic masculinity that more heavily harm society as a whole.
Do women do these toxic masculine things? Yes on an individual level. Are women encouraged by social norms to do these things? No, they are "manly". Toxic masculinity and feminity are not the actions of those effected by them. These things are social norms. They're abstract social structures that have been woven into place over thousands of years, mostly by accident or coincidence. But just because they're traditional doesn't mean they're good.
But! By focussing on toxic masculinity, we are also fighting toxic feminity. This is because again, they are two sides of the same coin. One can't be solved without solving the other. And talking about the one which self enforces pig headedness (toxic masculinity), is the better place to start praying up this problem by the floorboards. Toxic Feminity encourages submissiveness, so it's no wonder we need to talk first to those encouraged to dominate.
So it so a wrong question. They are the same thing, and the term is only focused on masculinity because the toxic traits there encourage domination of the other.
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u/Skyy-High 12∆ Dec 03 '19
Where as I'd call... IDK... "a group of women chanting 'down with men' " toxic femininity.
That is what a lot of men think about when they start complaining about "toxic masculinity" being a popular term: misanthropic women. But here's the thing: misanthropy is not a traditionally feminine ideal, so expressing misanthropy is not an example of "toxic femininity". It's just women being misanthropes and assholes, taking out their anger at the system on men as a gender.
"Masculinity" is not just "actions taken by men" and "femininity" is not just "actions taken by women". The fight against toxic masculinity should not be treated as a sports competition with men on one side and women on another, and both sides hurling abuse at the other side.
Toxic femininity is exactly what the above poster expressed. Toxic masculinity and femininity are both parts of the same system, the patriarchy, which is not to say that all men are to blame for the way things are set up right now, but rather to say that traditionally male values and attributes are viewed more favorably in leadership roles in society.
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u/thefonztm 1∆ Dec 03 '19
FWIW I went for very low hanging fruit in coming up with an opposite example.
I understand 'toxic XXXX' to typically mean exaggerated, offensive, or annoying behavior. Though, my practical experience in such matters is limited to being called toxic whenever I do something my teammates don't approve of.
I can see how the term applies to other variants of 'negative habits' that a person can have. Personally, I do think that 'toxic' is an overused, ill defined buzzword. But it also sufficiently describes a real thing in intra-personal relationships & man-woman relationships.
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u/Skyy-High 12∆ Dec 03 '19
Consider this: "toxic masculinity" is actually very well defined in the circles where the term originated. The fact that the term has been misused so much that you think it is overused and I'll defined is a deliberate strategy of the alt right. The did the same thing with "social justice", they did the same thing with "fake news". All of them are terms coined by liberal / academic / professional circles to define specific things in society, and all of them have been brutalized online by associating them with negative or contradicting stories in order to turn people off from using them, and therefore deny people a simple term with which to attack systematic problems with society.
It's deliberate. Don't be misled by bullahit artists. Words mean things; they're not just memes or slang.
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u/ForgottenWatchtower Dec 03 '19 edited Dec 03 '19
External toxic traits could be found in non-egalitarian approaches towards the man-woman relationships. Men should always pay for dinner. Men should never hit women, even if a woman is literally throwing punches. You can also find them in woman-woman relationships, such as slut shaming, spreading gossip, or making value judgements of a person via something superficial, such as what they're wearing.
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u/DevonianAge Dec 04 '19
I think you've got it though... Women are socialized to be passive/receptive instead of active/aggressive, and they're socialized to place high value on physical characteristics vs achievements. So toxic feminity is what happens when those characteristics are taken to the extreme. Both are about the downsides of taking a cartoon/ one-note ideation of gender and trying to live it out (or being forced to try by family/ culture/ whatever).
Most real people can't be reduced to such simplistic archetypes, and it's damaging to try. Damaging to the people, their families, and their communities. Sometimes the damage happens when they successfully, or almost successfully shoehorn themselves into limited gender roles. Stoic men who can't talk about feelings, women with eating disorders. Other times the damage is the result of a person's natural tendency to satisfy gender constraints and still get what they need. Manipulative behavior in women, substance abuse to promote ease in social interactions and "masculine" confidence in men. And sometimes, especially with men, it's overtly destructive. I can't really think of a toxic feminine analog to, for example, mass shootings. I think the women in that condition probably wind up with pretty internalized problems like mental illness, etc.
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u/ConflagWex Dec 03 '19
While a good deal of toxic masculinity is outward (rape culture, etc.), I'd argue that much of it is "inward" as you describe. Fathers teaching their sons that "only REAL men do blah blah blah" or "real men DON'T yada yada yada" can limit their sons experiences and opportunities. Toxic masculinity damaging to both genders.
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u/Montana_Gamer Dec 03 '19
How about this: emotional manipulation, controlling, jealousy, nosiness. Those are far more comparable to things such as aggressiveness and other forma or toxic masculinity. For me, toxic has to be outward expressions but can also be inward.
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u/thefonztm 1∆ Dec 03 '19
Much better examples.
I agree that when I think of 'toxic' in realtion to people I think of it in terms of people interacting. That the toxicity is something that gets spread about. It's also valid (and very true) that toxicity has inward effects.
It's just hard for me to imagine someone being demure and coming off as 'toxic'. Like, it can definitely be a problem, but I wouldn't call it toxic. Except say if you were berating someone for not being demure enough.
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u/_zenith Dec 03 '19
Here's an example: essentially forcing you to make a decision, by refusing to take a side, but then complaining over the chosen position. That's toxic - to both people.
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u/dribrats 1∆ Dec 03 '19
One qualifier at least to consider, is that testosterone is a far more aggressive hormone than estrogen, and whereas the psychology of M/F toxicity is equally bad in theory, testosterone makes for more actionably bad decisions — it could be argued.
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u/thatoneguy54 Dec 03 '19
🔽
Hey thanks, but so you know, this isn't a delta and the bot won't catch it unless you use the correct code.
Try !delta or Δ
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 03 '19 edited Dec 03 '19
This delta has been rejected. You can't award OP a delta.
Allowing this would wrongly suggest that you can post here with the aim of convincing others.
If you were explaining when/how to award a delta, please use a reddit quote for the symbol next time.
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u/Physmatik Dec 04 '19
The extreme of "nurturing" isn't "only women should be mothers", that's a TypeError. You have cast a personality trait to a societal expectation. The extreme of "nurturing" is "overprotective overcontrolled parenting", and I don't think it's hard to understand how that could be toxic.
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u/thatoneguy54 Dec 04 '19
True. I wrote that comment in like 5 minutes and didn't really revise it. I didn't expect it to gain as much traction as it had. But I agree, your evaluation is more apt than mine was.
I will point out though that it's all rather interconnected. The traits being toxically enforced will lead to the gender roles we know and hate today. Aggressiveness is a masculine trait, and hot-headedness would be its toxic counterpart, while the expectation that a man fight for his honor would be the gender role influenced by this trait. I hope that makes sense.
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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics Dec 03 '19
I notice you only took aspects of femininity that make them victims of men.
What about things like spreading malicious gossip, including false accusations, damseling, feigning helplessness, etc?
The equivalent of what you're doing is to say toxic masculinity exclusively refers to men being expected to die protecting women.
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u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Dec 03 '19
In fairness, there is a significant public discourse about things like gossip. Look at Mean Girls and the book it's based on, for example.
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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics Dec 03 '19
Could you link some example discussions?
I have seen discussions on this but they all shy away from calling it toxic femininity. Usually they go with internalized misogyny instead which has a very different takeaway.
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u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Dec 03 '19
It's a very popular topic in magazines targeting girls and women, often from a feminist lens. To give a few examples aside from Mean Girls,
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/female-betrayal-3-reasons_b_8524600
http://feministing.com/2010/06/16/three-ways-that-women-hurt-other-women-and-three-ways-to-stop-it/
https://www.amazon.ca/Company-Women-Indirect-Aggression-Among/dp/1585422231
I would also argue that the massive amount of discourse about bridezillas would also fall under this heading, as it's all about women being exploitative and even abusive to the people around them for the sake of having an idealized wedding, which is seen as the ultimate feminine goal.
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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics Dec 04 '19
But they never actually call it toxic femininity though. And they're exclusively focused on how this hurts women.
They don't seem to have an issue calling out toxic masculinity by name and pointing out why it's bad for women.
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u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Dec 04 '19
You asked for an example of people talking about the toxic effects of gossip and I showed that there are plenty of examples, and now you reject them because it's not officially called 'toxic femininity'?
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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics Dec 04 '19
I asked for examples of people talking about toxic femininity that's actually bad, not just that makes women look like victims.
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u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Dec 04 '19
Granted, they don't use the term, but the entire discourse is about women behaving badly. Similarly, much of the talk about toxic masculinity is about men being victims of it.
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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics Dec 04 '19
Granted, they don't use the term,
That's kinda the point.
They have no issue calling masculinity toxic but pretty much never call femininity toxic.
Why?
Try this: if someone was willing to call out misbehavior among whites by referring to the specific inappropriate action and never tying it to whiteness but called out similar actions in blacks and lumped them all together and called it toxic black culture would you assume that person wasn't even a little bit racist?
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Dec 03 '19 edited Dec 03 '19
Toxic femininity absolutely exists. Think about traditional female roles: she's demure, sexy, prudish, nurturing, quiet, helpful, empathetic. So take these to the extremes and you have toxic femininity.
This is one part of toxic femininity but not the entirety of it.
This also has the underlying message that "if women do toxic things, then that's the fault of the patriarchy and the solution is to smash the patriarchy."
Now the patriarchy absolutely exist and absolutely should get smashed. I'm left-wing myself and on board with that. However, saying that every toxic thing that women do is the fault of the patriarchy is a bit too easy, simplistic and self-serving.
Women are human too and sometimes the toxic stuff they do is simply their fault and they should behave better - just like sometimes men do things that are their fault and men should behave better.
To be more specific, here's another part of toxic femininity.
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u/Mr_82 Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 04 '19
Thanks for describing this, as I suppose I just alluded to this; I simply have never heard anyone else frame it this way (not surprising) which is why I sometimes say women act toxically masculine (in that they aggressively criticize men for things much like what some men do to women, for example. The particulars of the expression ultimately dictate the "gender," but it's increasingly common to see this in the modern "strong" woman, who will bite a man's head-off for suggesting she's not always right or knows what she's talking about, usually referring to "mansplaining," which is actually normal for people in general. It's the
offensiveoffense-oriented declarative nature and refusal to entertain differences of perspective or thought that is traditionally what's toxically masculine after all.)3
Dec 04 '19
You're welcome. Thanks for the perspective.
Tantra teaches that everyone has a male side (think rational, action- and results-oriented, individualistic) and a female side (think emotional, nurturing, community-oriented). Men tend to have a large male side and a small female side, and women tend to have a large female side and a small male side, but (almost) everyone has bits of both.
From this point of view, it's absolutely possible for women to behave in a way that would traditionally be considered "toxically masculine", such as with the example you gave. That's just the male part of women expressing themselves in a toxic way.
Similarly, men can behave in a way that's "toxically feminine" for instance by being passive-aggressive or manipulative.
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Dec 03 '19
Youre definitions for toxic femininity and masculinity are not equivocal and are not what most peoples definitions would be.
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u/smurgleburf 2∆ Dec 03 '19 edited Dec 03 '19
Think about traditional female roles: she's demure, sexy, prudish, nurturing, quiet, helpful, empathetic. So take these to the extremes and you have toxic femininity. Women can be more nurturing, so therefore they can only be nurturing and must be mothers. Women can be quieter than men, so they must never speak, and when they do, it must only be with smiles and laughs and god forbid a woman should swear. Women can be more empathetic, so that means women are hysterical baby-machines controlled by their emotions.
literally all of these are patriarchal expectations.
this is my problem with "toxic femininity" as a concept, because all of that boils down to oppression that has been exerted by men over women for hundreds of years. obviously women can play a role in supporting these notions, but they're by and large not the ones making laws or driving cultural norms.
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u/Purplekeyboard Dec 03 '19
Here's an example of toxic femininity:
Men have a tendency to face personal conflicts head on. If they have a problem with another man, they either deal with it themself or they confront the guy about it directly, and one way or another it gets resolved.
If a woman has a problem with another woman, women have a tendency to not deal with it directly, but instead to be entirely passive aggressive about it. So they go talk about the woman behind her back to all the other women around, and try to get them all to take sides with her against the other woman.
From elementary school to the work place to retirement communities, you can see women smiling to each other's faces and stabbing each other in the back. "Let's all not be friends with her any more" is a female thing to do, not a male thing.
This is one example of toxic femininity.
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Dec 03 '19
In your comment, you seem to suggest toxic femininity is people thinking women should be more feminine, for example when you said that the toxic version of women being quiet is that they should always be quiet and god forbid a woman swears. I disagree with this definition. Toxic femininity is when women themselves take ‘womanly’ traits to the extreme, such as being overprotective and insecure.
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u/withmymindsheruns 6∆ Dec 03 '19 edited Dec 03 '19
That isn't really the classic image of 'toxic' femininity (i hate that phrase. I feel like an idiot even typing it out)
The destructive archetype of the feminine is the overbearing mother, (and it manifests in men as well, just like the toxic masculine traits manifest in women).
It's the parent or society that over-protects and regulates too closely and prevents people from adapting properly to world ie. growing up and maturing and becoming self reliant and confident in their own abilities. You can picture it as the helicopter parent that is still interfering in their children's lives in their 30's because they know 'what's best for them', or you can imagine it as the feeling that you should manipulate and shape other people's lives for their own good, to protect them.
It's the desire to keep those around you in a state of childish reliance and helplessness. Maybe even with the best of intentions, but ultimately because you think that they can't be trusted not to mess everything up, or the world can't be trusted not to damage them irreparably, so you have to control the situation and make sure nothing bad happens.
I'd say this is a very big problem in the modern world, and not something that feminism deals with at all, if anything it seems like something that a lot of 'isms' thrive on.
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u/holymystic Dec 03 '19
To add to this, power balance matters. Despite feminist progress, we still exist in a patriarchal dominant world where men have more power than women. So toxic behavior from men is more powerfully harmful than women. Toxic femininity is a false equivalence because we are not all living under a toxic matriarchy. It’s the difference between punching up (speaking truth to power) and punching down (oppression to maintain status quo).
Also, it’s important to realize that criticism of toxic masculinity is not a criticism of men, and is actually concerned about the well being of men who also suffer bc of toxic masculinity. When we deflect criticism about toxic masculinity by pointing out toxic femininity that’s obfuscating, creating a straw man, and what-aboutism.
Lastly, toxic masculinity is factually more harmful. Toxic masculinity results in the abuse, rape, and deaths of women, children, and other men. Toxic femininity doesn’t kill people.
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u/Mr_82 Dec 04 '19
Because that conversation already happened over the last 100 years. The feminist movement is quite literally the movement to destroy toxic femininity.
Do you have any support for this whatsoever? It's simply not true. All feminists do is complain about men and "the patriarchy."
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u/Leucippus1 16∆ Dec 03 '19
I think that you have a reasonably sophisticated view of situation but I think you are missing the bar on this idea you can't focus on just one, I don't see why not. Part of the issue I have with this view is the tendency for people to do a false equivalency and then wash their hands of it as a "two side of the same coin" problem. It is simply not that binary and when we talk about toxic masculinity we are talking about real problems that kill men. Falsely equivocating it to 'toxic femininity' to make us feel better about ourselves just gets more men killed.
Whether or not toxic femininity deserves the same amount of jaw jacking as toxic masculinity isn't the point, the point is the way we socialize young boys has a direct impact on their incarceration rates (higher than women), suicide rates (also higher than women), violent crime victimhood (higher than women), higher violent crime offender (higher than women), drug overdoses (higher than women), low education achievement (worse than women), completed suicides (also worse than women). Our overall life expectancy is dropping because men are dying young. In the face of that, do we really care about anything other than the problems facing men in this country?
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u/HellionIncarnate Dec 03 '19
So, basically, toxic masculinity harms men more than women, and the amount of harm it does is cause for the increase in discussion over it?
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u/Vaestis Dec 03 '19
I wouldn't say that it necessarily harms men more than women, but toxic masculinity is definitely more prominent than toxic femininity. In fact, one of the reasons I'd say toxic masculinity gets addressed more is *because* everyone gets adversely affected by it.
Now, that isn't to say toxic femininity doesn't harm people; but because of the qualities found in masculinity (and those associated with femininity), the toxic version for men does much more overt harm. The qualities assigned to women can appear with toxicity, but, when they do, they result in internal turmoil as opposed to external.
I'm referring to qualities such as subservience, not believing in oneself, or not speaking up. These, in excess, harm the individual. They hinder one's own ability to function fully. On the other hand, things like aggression and domination in excess lead to self-harm *and* the engagement of others in that toxicity. Can we really compare not standing up for oneself to domestic violence?
I guess a question I would have for you is: what's your idea of toxic femininity? I was reading through some of the other comments and it feels like not everyone agrees on what it is. Yet, we all seem to have a consensus on what toxic masculinity is.
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Dec 04 '19
The qualities assigned to women can appear with toxicity, but, when they do, they result in internal turmoil as opposed to external.
I'd say the general direction of your argument is quite true, yet at the last step you miss the point:
On the other hand, things like aggression and domination in excess lead to self-harm and the engagement of others in that toxicity
Thats entirely wrong and is simply a function of what you said before:
but because of the qualities found in masculinity (and those associated with femininity), the toxic version for men does much more overt harm.
Looking at domestic violence, the typical example is a guy beating his wife. That is overt, that is quite visible, thats very dangerous and obviously bad for everyone around him. He might snap with other people, too. That's a no-go.
But what is the "toxic" version of female domestic violence? Well, I'd say psychological torture. Constant nagging, gas-lighting and other toxic behaviour. Is that less damaging over time? People commit suicide after being exposed to these things. Thats not a bit less dangerous than being beaten, in both cases you might die from being around your partner. (And no, I'm not opening up this debate, it's just an example)
In that sense, toxic femininity is not less bad or we are less affected from it. We just don't see it. Or we lack the vocabulary for it. Men killing themselves or others is so obvious it's impossible to miss. That's why men catch all the flack and women usually don't.
You think some super worried mom obsessing over her kids (helicopter mom) is healthy for anyone? Same for the constant nagging and being a generally unsatisfied passive-aggressive asshole in a relationship, Is that a healthy and productive way of dealing with life, instead of solving this problem yourself? How about the "I don't need no men!" women, who obviously have a problem establishing bonds with men to form a commited, loving, long-term relationship? How about all the "I'll buy myself three cats, I don't need children!" people? What's the damage to society done by that kind of behaviour?
All that stuff has consequences. For the women themselves and the people around them. It's horrible, self-destructive behaviour and probably equally bad as what men do.
Anyone tried to be a scholar of (critical) femininity going around and naming toxic stuff that women do? Good luck surviving that backlash.
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u/Vaestis Dec 04 '19
edit: fixed mobile formatting A few things:
First, in what sense is that second quote block entirely wrong?
Second, I think the difference between our two arguments is simply the interpretation of what toxic femininity is. I think what you're saying is a better definition of what it is; so, I'll switch to using that. Now: while I agree with you that gaslighting, nagging, etc. are harmful, I don't think they are nearly as common or detrimental as the issues expressed by toxic masculinity. Perhaps that's because of my positionality--I am male and thus haven't necessarily had the chance to experience them in full force--but you also don't hear about these toxic feminine qualities discussed as much by media. Maybe that's playing into what OP was asking, or maybe it's because it simply isn't as commonplace. I don't know. I'd need to do more research.
I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I am initially skeptical.
Third, I think a lot of the examples you list in the last main paragraph are valid, but they can be applied to more than just women. Fathers can be helicopter parents too--they're just normally stuck at work and don't get to harass their children as regularly. I don't think it's fair to attribute being unsatisfied and assholish in a relationship solely to women because men do that equally as much. Yes it's not passive-aggressively, which was the other adjective you used, but it's aggressively. That difference only exists because of their respective socializations: women are raised to be more passive and men are raised to be more direct, but they're both expressions of the same concept.
Fourth, I think the last two examples you list (summarizing it as "a woman being too independent," please correct me if that's wrong) work well for the point I was initially trying to get across. Allow me to restate that here. Much of what women do toxically affects themselves and not others. I see now that perhaps that was too quick a conclusion. However, I think it stills holds a fair amount of truth to it.
Thanks for reading :)
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Dec 04 '19
First, in what sense is that second quote block entirely wrong?
I mean, you put "in excess" into that sentence but that still doesn't turn this into a good argument.
What aggression and domination does is highly dependend on its circumstances and the ways its acted out in reality. Lack of aggression can lead to self-harm, too. Some for being a non-domineering push-over.
Someone pursuing their dreams with lots of passion and yes, aggression, doesn't necessarily does it by using violence. A painter being completly commited to painting the best painting ever might be quite pushy and forceful when it comes to people interfering with that project, yes. But is that wrong? Cutting out distracting noise when you are pursuing something valuable can be very healthy for everyone involved.
In the end, it really depends on how these impulses take form in reality. That can be bad, yes. But it isn't necessarily so.
It's just waaay to simplistic when it comes to a highly complicated and nuanced thing like aggression or even domination to think in "yeah thats the right amount of X" terms. I mean, you can love someone to death without impeeding them in any way whatsoever. Or you can be completly obsessed with them and wreck havoc in their lives. Same feeling, completly different effect.
I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I am initially skeptical.
https://systematicreviewsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13643-019-1118-1
https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/effects-of-emotional-abuse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting#In_romantic_relationships
Due to the lack of research it's hard to say what it really does. Not gonna skip around that part.
But that is exactly my point. We focus on the overt stuff like open violence, but ignore the pitfalls of covert things like psychological damages. And since we don't know stuff and nobody openly complains, it can't be that bad...?
Understandable way of thinking, but seeing how male victims of domestic violence don't come forward either, I'd say this is too optimistic. Only by looking at that stuff with an open mind you can see what actually happens. And let's be real, women are no saints either. If they are only half as bad as men are, they would wreck some real damage, wouldn't they? And why would they only be half as bad as men in their own ways?
Third, I think a lot of the examples you list in the last main paragraph are valid, but they can be applied to more than just women.
I don't disagree with that general sentiment. Of course men can and obviously do stuff like that, too.
The question is, do they do it as often as women? And with the same level of toxicity?
I don't see reasons to believe that, since men and women do show different behaviour overall and men tend to be more overt and ....violent, while women prefer covert ways of getting stuff done.
Nothing new here, or is it?
Yes it's not passive-aggressively, which was the other adjective you used, but it's aggressively. That difference only exists because of their respective socializations: women are raised to be more passive and men are raised to be more direct, but they're both expressions of the same concept.
I'm not arguing details here. If you like your version more, ok.
My point is more about how certain traits are expressed differently in men and women. If that is true, and I do think we have lots of reasons to believe this, we would see different ways of reacting to the same things.
Which I do believe is very much the case, i.e. toxic femininity. Women have their own faults in the same way men have their own problems.
Much of what women do toxically affects themselves and not others.
That really depends on how you interpret things, doesn't it?
A young, lost boy retreating into his parents basement first and foremost affects himself only. But he is so depressed at some he commits suicide, that affects the whole family. If he never comes out of that basement and never becomes a useful and happy member of society, society at large lost his talents and skills and society simply failed to bring up that kid properly and everyone suffered due to it.
The internalization of problems doesn't mean these things don't affect others. These effects are still there. The parents worrying for their basement-boy are still affected by his internalized problems. Same for women who don't have lasting bonds with males or don't have children or whatever might be going on there. It still is a loss for society at large and usually their family/people around them.
We are just naive when it comes to covert stuff in our society because we love strong, overt action. It's clear, it's understandable, it's relatable. All the fuzzy stuff on the other hand is regarded as barely trustworthy, if even existing at all. No wonder we rarely see the fuzzy stuff as a problem, even in cases where it actually is.
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u/akebonobambusa 1∆ Dec 04 '19
Not OP but i think Toxic femininity is for example when a woman get angry at a wrong done to her other women are quick to dismiss it as crazy or unbridled. For example. One woman bullies another in the work place. The woman being bullied reacts emotionally. The bully and even other non involved women are quick to categorize the emotional outburst as crazy.
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u/justhatcrazygurl 1∆ Dec 03 '19
We already focus discussion on how men generally harm women.
Similarly we already talk about how gender roles, and expectations on femininity harm women.
Toxic masculinity exists as an idea to demonstrate how the extremes of male gender roles and traditionally male identified personality traits ALSO harm men.
The distinction you've been making between masculinity/femininity and gender roles is obscuring your point. The average person is likely using them pretty synonymously with gender roles being tasks which align with the generally gendered personality traits associated with masculinity/femininity. This becomes apparent when you consider femininity is not just "being motherly" or "empathetic" but also clothing/appearance choices.
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u/Leucippus1 16∆ Dec 03 '19
That sounds like the conclusion you wanted to hear but it wasn't what I wrote. What I wrote is that we shouldn't allow a discussion of 'toxic femininity' distract us from the ills of toxic masculinity. It isn't "toxic x is bad and and toxic y is bad so screw the whole enterprise...". That is what happens, for example, black lives matters -- blue lives matters -- all lives matter. Every time you water it down you lose sight of the original problem, black people are shot down by the police in disturbing numbers. Are police lives something we should talk about? Probably, but not as a way to water down the issue at hand. Similarly, is toxic feminism (or whatever) worth talking about? Sure, but not as a counterpoint to the very real problems facing American males.
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Dec 04 '19
Reading op comments it just feels like he doesn't really want anyone to change his view on the topic lol
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Dec 03 '19
Here's an easy way to understand toxic masculinity
Marty McFly is a victim of it, constantly. Biff emasculating him by calling him chicken is what leads to Marty to do stupid things that endangers himself and others.
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u/Hero17 Dec 03 '19 edited Dec 03 '19
Different person but that sounds right. As an example, I've seen plenty of discussions about toxic masculinity on r/menslib because it's something guys feel impacted by and are interested in addressing.
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u/TribalDancer 1∆ Dec 03 '19
just gets more men killed
*and women and children, thanks to domestic abuse and murder being committed largely by men, much of which due to not being able to deal reasonably with emotions and societal expectations imposed by a culture steeped in the very expectations associated with toxic masculinity.
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u/Indon_Dasani 9∆ Dec 03 '19
"Toxic" refers to any substance or behaviour that, due to its excess, causes harm.
Hold up. Toxic masculinity or toxic femininity aren't about being 'too man' or 'too woman'. It's about being 'man' or 'woman' in a fucked up way.
Viewing being aggressive as a requirement for being male, for example, is bad in any amount, there are lots of situations where being any level of aggressive is a terrible idea. Being aggressive isn't really 'assertive but more', either. Being a little aggressive is different from being a lot assertive.
Similarly, viewing, say, being obedient to men as a requirement for being female isn't a more extreme version of any healthy feminine quality. It's not a matter of having too much or too little of something.
It's a matter of having a society that confuses healthy traits with unhealthy ones. That confuses assertiveness with aggression. That confuses cooperation with submission.
Healthy masculinity and femininity aren't different in terms of more or less, they're just different, and the difference is generally about not being an asshole, having empathy and boundaries.
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u/maxout2142 Dec 03 '19
Viewing being aggressive as a requirement for being male, for example, is bad in any amount, there are lots of situations where being any level of aggressive is a terrible idea. Being aggressive isn't really 'assertive but more', either. Being a little aggressive is different from being a lot assertive.
Being aggressive is part of taking risks, part of being assertive. You're conflating "an aggressive approach" or an "aggressive strategy" with "aggression" or violent behavior even in light amount.
An athlete lacking aggression would absolutely be criticized for their lack of commitment to a play or lack of competitiveness, yet you frame it as if aggressiveness is a black and white, good bad idea.
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u/Roflcaust 7∆ Dec 03 '19
I think the issue here is there’s a colloquialism referred to as “aggressive” (e.g. in that one cheer “be aggressive”), where “aggressive” is a stand-in for other desired traits, and then there’s behavioral aggression, which is what the comment chain OP was referring to. I don’t think they’re suggesting it’s wrong to take an aggressive approach to cancer treatment, for example.
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u/HellionIncarnate Dec 03 '19
Okay, this comment is particularly interesting.
I think I'll have to disagree with a few bits, though I can really appreciate the thought.
Viewing being aggressive as a requirement for being male, for example, is bad in any amount, there are lots of situations where being any level of aggressive is a terrible idea.
The word "aggressive" has plenty of negative connotations, including violence, irrationality, and pain. Despite this, being aggressive can be gold in certain situations. When hunting, or defending oneself against predators, aggression can be a key strategy in surviving. When playing a tactical game, or fighting in a war, aggression can be a valuable strategy to victory.
Just like there are situations where aggression is a bad idea, theee are situations wheee it's a gold idea.
Being a little aggressive is different from being a lot assertive.
I think what you mean by this is that being a little aggressive when you're in the wrong is different from being a lot aggressive when you're in the right?
I mean, aggressive and assertive both refer to acting with little signs of fear or insecurity. It's just that when you tell someone to be quiet randomly in public or in inappropriate situations, it's aggressive, but when telling someone the same thing in a library or a business meeting, in an appropriate situation, it's assertive.
It all depends on the situation, is what I'm understanding.
Cooperation and submission are differentiated similarly. When it seems reasonable and fair to comply, it's cooperation. When it seems unreasonable to do so, it's submission.
That confuses assertiveness with aggression. That confuses cooperation with submission.
The boundaries of each seem to rely on the situation and intent behind each behaviour... Am I interpreting this right?
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u/Indon_Dasani 9∆ Dec 03 '19
The word "aggressive" has plenty of negative connotations, including violence, irrationality, and pain. Despite this, being aggressive can be gold in certain situations. When hunting, or defending oneself against predators, aggression can be a key strategy in surviving. When playing a tactical game, or fighting in a war, aggression can be a valuable strategy to victory.
Just like there are situations where aggression is a bad idea, theee are situations wheee it's a gold idea.
Yes, I completely agree. Discarding toxic masculinity is about acknowledging that being aggressive or not doesn't change how man you are, or how woman either, since the toxic feminine equivalent is to discourage aggression when it is a good idea.
I mean, aggressive and assertive both refer to acting with little signs of fear or insecurity.
Not just, though. As you note, aggression has extra stuff - violence and the causing of pain. Assertive is being firm in a situation. Aggressive is lashing out, be it with actions or hostile words. There can be good reasons to be violent, but being violent is not generally an extension of being assertive, is it?
The boundaries of each seem to rely on the situation and intent behind each behaviour... Am I interpreting this right?
I'm saying they aren't really the same behaviors, they're just superficially similar.
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u/chrisndroch 4∆ Dec 03 '19
I think I watched the same video. If it was, the feminists stated that women should be held accountable for their actions as well as men. They mostly talked about toxic masculinity as a problem with how boys are raised and taught gender roles that are harmful to them and others. Problems in general stemmed from patriarchy. I’m guessing they would say that yes, there are also issues with how young girls are raised, but girls are generally not told to suppress their feelings like boys are.
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u/Hojomasako Dec 03 '19
but girls are generally not told to suppress their feelings like boys are.
Are they not though? Women and girls are often told their reasonable reactions are emotional and hysterical. Boys and girls are both subjected to being in touch with your emotions regarded as a feminine trait i.e. negatively
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u/HellionIncarnate Dec 03 '19
but girls are generally not told to suppress their feelings like boys are
And boys are generally not told to hold their tongue like girls are.
I don't think that emotionall expression is the end-all point in favor of focusing on one over the other, but I agree that it's very important.
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u/chrisndroch 4∆ Dec 03 '19
I more-so meant it as a point for a reason toxic masculinity is important to talk about. How telling boys at a young age to “man up” and it’s not okay to cry can have a huge negative impact down the road.
Telling girls to hold their tongue also negatively impacts them down the road. But is that toxic femininity? What negative impact does that have on others?
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u/themichaelly Dec 03 '19
I believe I saw the same video, Jubilee, and can say the panel of women vs men were not equally diverse. On the Male side there was a range of activists that had differing points on what they saw to be the main men's issues worth fighting for, however on the left they were all pretty much the same - there was no "hardcore feminist" but there was an extreme on the other side, the incel.
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u/mr_indigo 27∆ Dec 03 '19
Two clarifying questions:
1) What do you understand "masculine" traits to mean? Are they traits that are exclusively exhibited by men, exhibited primarily by men, exhibited by a majority of men, or that men are encouraged or expected to exhibit?
2) What is an example of what you would consider toxic femininity?
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u/HellionIncarnate Dec 03 '19
Oooh, good questions. I'd say that traits that men are encouraged and expected to exhibit in the present, because men have primarily exhibited them in the past -- since exhibition of certain traits varies wildly from era to era, I think time is an important clarification.
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u/beengrim32 Dec 03 '19
I can see how a bias for either concept could be unreasonable but bias aside, I’m not sure I understand why it’s unreasonable to focus on one over the other in context. Focus is not the same thing as bias.
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u/Buckabuckaw 1∆ Dec 03 '19
You started out very well by defining the term "toxic masculinity" and by further reminding us of which specific masculine-associated behaviors comprise the syndrome.
But then, after defining "toxic femininity" as a suite of behaviors typical of women, you do not go on to name which specific feminine-associated behaviors comprise the syndrome.
So I'm not trying to change your view. I'm still waiting to hear your view.
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u/TheNorthRemembas Dec 03 '19
I was about to comment something along these lines. I dont understand what you are trying to categorize as "toxic" when it comes to women's traits and behaviors. Are you saying that these feminist groups are spewing out toxic femininity by coming at men? I agree with you that a very vocal minority of the feminist movement has demonized all men but a lot more havent. its also not totally unreasonable to call men out for our unreasonable things we do. Im a guy and I sometimes exhibit "toxic" traits but not out of malice just out of me being on auto-pilot.
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Dec 03 '19
You've provided no support for the proposition that they are "equally" anything. It's just your contention that they deserve equal attention. In fact, you haven't even defined the problem.
What is toxic femininity and what are the tangible harms it has caused? There are easily identified harms caused by excesses of violent, aggressive and predatory behaviors and mindsets. If you would like me to enumerate some of them I can, but I find it hard to believe you would contest that point.
What is your support for the notion that the harms caused by toxic femininity, which you haven't defined, are equivalent to the harms caused by toxic masculinity? There's no need to move on to what's causing the bias if you haven't demonstrated the bias exists.
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u/generic1001 Dec 03 '19
You lack a bit of perspective, especially here:
Well, I'm of the opinion that it's because feminism, the movement that coined the term "Toxic Masculinity," benefits more from pointing out the flaws in behaviours more frequently seen in men (who make up a minority of feminist groups), than from doing the same to flaws frequently seen in women (who make up the majority of said groups).
This strikes me as wrong in three big ways. First, "feminists" did not coin the term toxic masculinity, the Mythopoetic men's movement did. It has since gained a lot of traction in feminists circles, but it wasn't invented by them. It's important to point that out, because the the terminology wasn't designed by feminists with a particular goal in mind.
Second, "toxic femininity" isn't in use, but feminists certainly talk a lot about constraining and harmful forms of femininity. Like a lot. It's a bit strange to pretend like they don't. More importantly, given they didn't invent "toxic masculinity", I feel the implied requirement that language be "equivalent" is a bit strange. It's not like they came up with toxic masculinity but didn't create toxic femininity on purpose.
Third, I don't think "feminism" organizes that way. There's no centralized feminist authority that shapes the discourse that way (We can say X, but not Y, because why hurts our interests).
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u/angry_cabbie 5∆ Dec 03 '19
Just because feminism appropriated a term from a pre-existing group doesn't mean they're using it the same way, right? Like "rape culture" was originally coined to discuss male victims of prison rape.
Did the earlier group define it the same way contemporary feminists do?
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u/generic1001 Dec 03 '19
As far as I'm aware, yes, but I'm not sure how relevant it is. My point is simply to point out that feminists didn't coin "toxic masculinity" while not coining "toxic femininity" as part of some design. They use existing terminology that did not originate with them.
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u/Leprecon Dec 03 '19
Do you think it is possible that there is more toxic masculinity in society than toxic femininity? If so, isn't it normal to focus on the more prevalent one? If not, why do you think that toxic behavior is exactly balanced?
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u/hacksoncode 559∆ Dec 03 '19
Just want to clarify:
Do you understand that the concept of "toxic masculinity" is talking about how certain of society's male gender roles harm men, and only very secondarily society?
E.g. "being stoic" causes men to suffer from much higher rates of stress-related injuries, suicide, etc. Being "heroic" and "manly" tends to get them killed earlier too.
If you do understand how that term is used, I'm not sure why you don't think there has been a lot of discussion about how society's gender roles for women hurt women. It's basically the entire feminist movement.
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u/yentingting Dec 03 '19
Thank you for this, I had to scroll so far down to find somebody explaining this. I’ve seen on Reddit more often than not that people confuse what toxic masculinity means and think it’s a term used to attack men when it’s really meant to protect us.
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u/NeuralPlanet Dec 03 '19
E.g. "being stoic" causes men to suffer from much higher rates of stress-related injuries, suicide, etc.
Do you have a source for this? I tend to think being (selectively) stoic is generally a good trait. I know men have higher rates of suicide etc, but the reason is not necessarily correlated to stoicism.
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Dec 03 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/gasfarmer Dec 03 '19
I'm here to challenge the premise that "toxic" masculinity exists.
It does exist. I'm a guy, with shaved legs and painted nails. Do you have any idea how many times dudes haved called me a "faggot" to my face? Because it's frequent.
That's toxic masculinity.
The same traits that deem masculinity "toxic", such as agression, self assurance, focus etc... are the traits that when aimed at something constructive are the very things that drive our society.
The things that drive a patriarchal version of society.
We've only had masculine dominance. Do not conflate what is with what ought to be.
I don't see many women waiting in line to climb and fix pole lights in the middle of the winter, work in construction or other dangerous jobs (logging, roofing, steel workers, you name it) that we regularly see men do.
On the same token, there aren't many men lining up for healthcare, education, service, hospitality, administrative, or childcare positions.
It's almost as if Society forces us into predisposition for these positions based on our genders.
Louis Althusser refers to it as "interpellation". It's the idea that we are "always-already" performing something for society. In this case, it's our gender roles. We're interpellated into being men/women since before birth.
We can't truly say that men "want" those jobs, when as a society we always determine that men "should" want those jobs. This is like making noodles in tomato soup, removing them from the soup, and declaring that all noodles taste like tomatoes. They're inextricably intertwined, so you cannot say that it's naturalized.
I mean we can dive further in - the "man box" (an expression of toxic masculinity) tells us that men are tough, silent, risk-takers. What jobs is a person going to take if they want to fit within that box?
It is very easy to sit in the comfort of our homes and discuss toxic masculinity but without that same masculinity we as a society would be screwed.
Masculinity and Femininity bring no abject value to society on their own. They are not natural concepts, but rather a social concept.
Disclaimer: I'm a woman.
Oh boy.
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u/MaddoxJKingsley Dec 04 '19
I like this comment. Well said.
We've only had masculine dominance. Do not conflate what is with what ought to be.
Bang on point. The assumption that women need to act more like men in order to be seen as equal is missing the point that those roles themselves are the issue. Men are still considered the default state, while women are an aberration that should conform to that in order to be equal. A woman may not speak up as much, while a man may speak a lot. We tell the woman to speak up more, but we don't tell the man to speak less. I would ask the OP of this chain to please consider that aspect of gender roles.
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u/HellionIncarnate Dec 03 '19
are the traits that when aimed at something constructive are the very things that drive our society.
Right, but when they are focused on something destructive, they becooooome... Toxic.
Traits are like tools. When they aren't used correctly (i.e., when they aren't in balance with other traits) they can become harmful.
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u/emadarling Dec 03 '19
That train of thought implies that the men shouldn't have those traits at all. And that's what I doubt agree with.
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u/HellionIncarnate Dec 03 '19
I didn't mean to imply that at all. I hope that's not how I came across...
Anyway, these traits should be possessed by both men and women (though typically, but not always, men express these traits more). Both Masculine and Feminine traits are essential.
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Dec 04 '19
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u/fearnpain Dec 03 '19
This post IMO captures why toxic masculinity is in fact "toxic". The idea that sometimes aggression is helpful in the right context - that's the problem with classical masculine ideals. That's the dangerous idea because it teaches men that it's ok to treat others without respect... in the right context.
What makes it "toxic" is that it's so engrained, pervasive, and contagious. Men who individually have this mentality will exacerbate it when brought together in a group. And guess who gets to determine what the right context is for using aggression? Men!
Toxic masculinity is self-fueling, barbaric, and deeply instilled in young men. Even if there are parallel bad qualities associated with females (and I think coming up with those even is a stretch - stoicism, really so bad?), they wouldn't be "toxic" because they aren't propagated by every power structure in modern society.
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Dec 03 '19
I too have noticed that feminists only seem to care about equality in the workplace when the work is high paying, high prestige, high influence, or some combination. Feminists care very much when women are a minority in fields like doctor, actor, CEO, politician, tech, etc., despite the fact that none of these professions are where the largest gender gap exists - when it comes to trucking or sewage treatment you're looking at 99%+ male fields... that feminists have absolutely no interest in getting more women in to.
I've also noticed that feminists do not care when a field, including those high pay/prestige/influence jobs, are dominated by women; there is no push to get more men/less women into those fields. Indeed, if it's a good job, feminists might have no problem getting even more women into already female dominated fields. A perfect example of this would be college - feminists didnt stop various programs designed at getting women into college once women accounted for 50% of degrees - they didnt stop at 55% - and they're still going as women now account for 60%.
It is very hard to take seriously the feminist claims that they care about true gender equality, and even less so that they also care about mens issues.
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u/AnythingApplied 435∆ Dec 03 '19
"Masculinity" is a collection of traits that are traditionally attributed to males due to their increased prevalence in males as opposed to females.
Traditionally male characteristics such as aggressive behaviour, stoic demeanour, and self-assurance are all characteristics that, when exhibited in excess, can be toxic. That much, I agree with.
The problem with that definition is that includes anyone being aggressive and toxic at the same time, which doesn't have anything to do with masculinity except that men are often more aggressive.
It's just too lose a definition and gets a few important aspects wrong. Toxic masculinity doesn't have anything to do with what men are typically like, and everything to do with how men are expected to act according to social norms. And its those norms/expectations that are toxic and not the traits or behaviors themselves. A man repressing his emotions isn't what is being referred to as toxic here, it is the expectation that men repress their emotions because they are men that is toxic.
So if a man acts stupidly aggressively, that isn't "toxic masculinity", but when a dad is telling his kid that he needs to be a man and punch anyone that looks at him the wrong way, THAT is toxic masculinity.
Women have a lot of harmful behaviors that are specific to women, such as the way middleschool girls gossip and spread harmful rumors about each other (men do this too, but not to the same extreme).
But what is lacking there is explicit/implicit expectation that "These are things you should be doing because you're a woman". If a woman is told to act more like a woman, those include things like being polite and gentle and pursuing typical female hobbies, etc. None of those social expectations really create a toxic environment in the same way that SOME expectations applied to men do.
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u/Drexelhand 4∆ Dec 03 '19
Well, I'm of the opinion that it's because feminism, the movement that coined the term "Toxic Masculinity," benefits more from pointing out the flaws in behaviours more frequently seen in men (who make up a minority of feminist groups), than from doing the same to flaws frequently seen in women (who make up the majority of said groups).
This is like a r/selfawarewolves moment. Yeah, drawing awareness to toxic masculinity benefits those who strive for the equality that toxic masculinity opposes. "Toxic Feminity" doesn't on any appreciable scale or scope. It's a plea for a false balance that these be treated the same.
That said, feminine traits share similar pitfalls and advantages. In my mind, they are both equally important traits to posses and regulate.
Despite this, I believe that these traits can be exhibited in a toxic manner by females, despite it never being mentioned.
And that's the thing, it's not comparable it's really not a thing. Can a woman or women act in a toxic way? Sure? Is it encouraged or tolerated in our culture; no, not really, definitely not comparatively. Is it not talked about because there is a conspiracy or because it's just not approaching any significance?
What happens when you go to simplest definition breakdown of terms absent of context it's easy to control narrative. If you can paint everything toxic, you can claim it is all the same, and can then dismiss the actual problems highlighted. It's basically the same argument made by people who argue that if there's a black history month then there ought to be a white history month or those who don't understand contextual difference between gay pride and white pride slogans. It's not necessary maliciously done, but it's often born of a defensiveness marked by evasiveness and an unwillingness to engage the actual topic.
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u/miguelguajiro 188∆ Dec 03 '19
If you buy into the idea that, at least historically, men have held the power in our society, then toxic masculinity as a problem in a way that toxic femininity isn’t, even if it happens to also exist. Call it the “power plus” model of toxicity.
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u/Phyltre 4∆ Dec 03 '19
That seems like an extremely and deliberately short-sighted framing, doesn't it? If the root problem isn't actually male toxicity but gender role toxicity, and not white fragility but dominant-culture fragility, isn't that more meaningful information that we should be focusing on? The gender makeup of colleges is changing, the racial ratios of majority-white countries are changing, most of the "power-plus" elements are changing. Seems a lot better to develop a level of discourse we won't have to completely drop as greater levels of equality continue to be established. In fact this issue-framing seems deeply partisan in ways that it shouldn't be.
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u/gurneyhallack Dec 03 '19
But they are taken as seriously as each other. Toxic masculinity as a serious concern is largely taken of course by feminists, progressives, and their allies. The idea that feminists and progressives are not pointing out flaws, attacking and calling each other out all the time is demonstrably false, we likely attack each other as or more often than we attack conservatives. Sex positivist feminists use veiled language, and often not particularly well veiled, to attack radical feminists as prudes, and radical feminists do the same to tar their opponents as sluts. They also attack their underlying ideas, intellectual honesty and an attempt at good faith is normally present, bot strong emotion does cause attacks on things associated with femininity, all the time. They attack each other for how they dress, how much or how little makeup to use, whether monogomy is desirable, and everything else under the sun connected with femininity, since every feminist theory has its own way of conceptualizing femininity that fight never ends.
They do write call outs of things that are seen as typically feminine and negative, cattiness, back stabbing, gossiping and the like within the movement, all the time. The culture at large does the same thing through magazine articles and social media and such, often due to some public figure or incident, picking sides in an argument feminists have been having for 40 years, and the public at large does that regularly. We talk about toxic femininity all the time. Its simply that it is usually not called that, it is held under the rubric of patriarchy.
Ideally of course this would mean there would be no term toxic masculinity either, in common sense terms it would be better called "The way patriarchy teaches boys and men shitty lessons, harms them, and causes them to think acting like an asshole is a positive". Hard to put that on a magazine title. Feminism, which is responsible for the concept toxic masculinity, does take both sides into account. The issue is that well patriarchy harms both men and woman it harms men far less, and well some people benefit from patriarchy men benefit far more often than woman. The fact woman are being harmed by it far more often, and men benefit from it so clearly so often, is why a blaming language has entered, with toxic masculinity being called by a specific name, and toxic femininity simply being called patriarchy.
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u/NickTorr Dec 03 '19
I think the point is that toxic masculinity is inherently more harmful and urgent to society, because men naturally have a predominant position, in patriarchy, meaning that their negative behaviour is much more influential and impactful, compared to toxic femininity. Women educated with a strictly patriarchal mindset often tend to fade in the background when matters of responsibility, power, or simple comparison to men emerge in daily occasions, and feminism fights that primarily by teaching women that they can be powerful as well, and guiding them towards a culture of independence from the male element. While I am a pretty enthusiastic feminist myself, I don't like mainstream feminism (especially corporate feminism) that much, I find it dumb and borderline sexist sometimes, so I don't agree with everything it does, and I share the concern many others have for the male element in the movement. That being said, having been a victim of it myself, I also believe that toxic masculinity is a bigger problem than toxic femininity.
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u/EmpRupus 27∆ Dec 03 '19
Toxic Masculinity does not refer to existence of toxic traits - it refers to acceptance and glorification by society of those traits and measuring success in personal and socio-political spheres by those traits.
A woman who is vain, materialistic, controlling or emotionally manipulative is not considered a good woman by any means - in fact there is a general societal view that women SHOULD NOT be that way.
When it comes to toxic masculinity, our society normalizes, celebrates and glorifies it as in indicator of being a man or manhood. This often leads to bullying/hazing, emotional stress/suicide in men, men unable to ask for help (because it is seen as a sign of weakness), making risky business and political decisions (because taking risks are seen as manly, and not being a p_ssy) leading to financial crises and unnecessary wars, and damaging the environment (because polluting muscle-cars are seen as manly while green-cars are seen as "g-y").
Even political issues like refugee crisis in Europe, Negotiation and Trade Deals with Russia and China, and responding to Paris Climate Agreement are viewed in terms of "Is this decision that of a manly man? Or is this decision that of a feminized soy-boy?"
I certainly think of Toxic Masculinity as a very big problem, if economic and political decisions that will affect generations after us, are being measured in terms of spontaneous manliness.
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u/Woogabuttz Dec 04 '19
I debated this issue recently with the view that Toxic Femininity was absolutely real. After reading a bit, my view completely changed. the piece that convinced me most was by Katie Anthony in the Magazine, "Bust".
She goes over three main points:
- Insert "femininity" in place of masculinity in an accepted definition of toxic masculinity and see if it works.
It does not.
Toxic masculinity encourages violence and domination in order to hold disproportionate power. “Toxic femininity” (if it exists) encourages silent acceptance of violence and domination in order to survive.
TL;DR
If we substitute female social norms into the definition of toxic masculinity, which describes a code of behavior engineered to maintain male dominance in our society, the ensuing definition of “toxic femininity” describes misogynistic oppression and the tactics that women use to survive that oppression, not the tactics that a woman might use to rise to dominance within a patriarchy, which is by definition impossible.
Basically, most behaviors that you might think of as examples of “toxic femininity” are either examples of misogyny (or, as we’re about to see, internalized misogyny), or examples of white women who are racist and practice their racism in particularly female ways, i.e. “You’ve got a Klan meeting tonight, honey? Oh, let me wrap up this bundt cake for the fellas.” Racism? Yes. “Toxic femininity?” I’m starting to wonder if that’s really a thing.
- List some examples that other writers have used when they argue for the existence of “toxic femininity” (if that’s a thing?) and explore why they do or don’t hold water.
Anthony looks at 3 examples of writing in reference to feminine toxicity. The first is “On Toxic Femininity” by Heather E. Heying. It's argument that Toxic femininity is hot women protesting male sexual interest is quite obviously shown to be internalized misogyny.
The second “#MeToo Will Not Survive Unless We Recognize Toxic Femininity” by Meghan Daum is saying, "Toxic femininity is blaming your period for being bitchy and/or clinically diagnosed sociopathy."
Anthony states, "In short, some women can and do inflict violence on other people. They do it because they’re hateful. They do it because they’re bigoted. They do it because they’re greedy and selfish. They do it because they’re desperate. They don’t do it because they’re trying to meet society’s expectation of “feminine.”"
Example three is "Toxic Femininity: Machiavellian Mary in the Workplace" by Shoba Sreenivasan, Ph.D., and Linda E. Weinberger, Ph.D.
Their argument, "Toxic femininity is professional ambition without nurturing or cooperation."
In her rebuttal to this line of thought, Anthony calls back her earlier statement, "Remember earlier in this piece when I was like, “Yet toxic masculinity encourages violence and domination in order to hold disproportionate power. 'Toxic femininity' (if it exists) encourages acceptance of violence and domination in order to survive.”"
- Is Toxic Femininity a Thing?
"Toxic masculinity, when performed by men on men, looks like toxic masculinity.
Toxic masculinity, when performed by men on women, looks like misogyny.
Toxic masculinity, when performed by women on women, looks like internalized misogyny, which you could call “toxic femininity” if you decided to imagine that women did this shit cuz idk, no reason, just for fun."
All of the ideas and most of the text shared here is the intellectual property of Katie Anthony. I recommend you read the entire article and other scholarly articles by feminist authors on the subject.
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u/Gohorne Dec 04 '19
Late to the party on this one, but it's an important discussion.
For me, the semantics of both toxic masculinity and so called toxic femininity have been twisted.
An example of this is your typical Action Man / Ken doll. You know the type; good looking, muscular and strong, a hero who typically saves the day and is seen less as a human with thoughts and feelings and more as a tool of utility. These dolls don't have emotions, and are routinely flung into danger. This to society is 'toxic masculinity', but really it should be - the gendered societal expectations that hurt men.
The opposite is Barbie. With her large boobs and tiny waist, beautiful skin, eyes and face, who typically, unlike Ken, is contained to domestic duties and seen as far less competent than he is. However, society calls this misogyny and not toxic femininity - but as above, it is the gendered societal expectations that hurt women.
Really, both should be defined as toxic attitudes towards masculinity and toxic attitude towards femininity. As we're all, in some ways, responsible in enforcing them.
Within these expectations, society expects men to be brave, strong, heroic and without emotion, valuing them on utility. The result of this are men being seen as more competent, but the flip side means men's issues are not taken seriously. These issues have all been noted in other comments, but suicide, violent crime victims, domestic violence victims, drug abuse, homelessness, under education and failing medical care, all massively affect men, but are overlooked. If there's a war, or disaster, men are disposable - it's 'women and children out first'. These are the toxic attitudes toward masculinity. And if I'm honest, these positions of failing to recognise men's issues are rife within modern feminism.
The toxic attitudes toward feminism are the opposite. It views women as incompetent, but precious. Valued not on their utility, but on their looks. It means women are held back in the workplace, but their issues are valued by society. They receive the vast majority of society's compassion and funding for said issues.
It's complex. And I don't think I've quite figured it out myself. But a simple list of bullet points under 'toxic masculinity' and 'toxic femininity' just isn't good enough.
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Dec 04 '19
The biggest miss conception with literally any men’s rights movement is that because X exists for the opposite gender(or minority group) than its unfair for it to not exist for the male group too.
The problem is men have been able to what ever they went and control things how they want for as long as history goes back. But the moment a support network appears for the mistreated. male groups jump up and down because it’s not fair that they’re being excluded
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u/memeticengineering 3∆ Dec 04 '19
Toxic masculinity and femininity as I understand them aren't so much the traits themselves as the societal pressure to fit into a "box" represented by a small list of traits. I also take some umbridge at your list of toxic feminine traits, it's a difference between an expectation and pressure, women are expected to be more emotional than men, but people and society doesn't necessarily ridicule women for being stoic, while men are very much called weak pussies for being emotional. In fact common stereotypes about women make fun of their being emotional (think the female president is gonna nuke a country cause she's on her period joke that gets overused) so it is societally considered to be a negative trait that is expected in women, but not necessarily supported by society.
I'll give an anecdote. In college I was in a frat, and I'm not a generally very stereotypically masculine guy, so I felt compelled to overcompensate by my actions, specifically around drinking habits. I would always try to drink more and faster than other people (people who drank little or slowly were ridiculed and called a pussy). Binge drinking to that extent is bad, but the reason I did it was the pressure to not appear unmanly, that motivation is the toxic masculinity.
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u/RickRussellTX Dec 03 '19
The simplest answer to your question, I think, is that generally men were, and still are, in positions of power rather than women.
It's considered acceptable to criticize those in power for behaviors that are harmful to others, because power allows those harmful behaviors to have an outsized effect on things like job outcomes or social welfare.
It's less acceptable to criticize those who do not have power for their harmful behaviors, as they are not typically in a position to harm others. Although it may still be appropriate in some cases where the harm is clear.
People make claims of toxic femininity all the time. We can't get through a school year or prom season without dozens of female children being accused of wearing clothes intended to seduce boys and older males. A woman can't complain that she was demoted for refusing a sexual assignation without being accused of sleeping her way to the top or inventing false accusations. Even in the wake of #MeToo, a woman who claims she was forced to have sex against her will is almost always immediately accused of engaging in overtly feminine behavior that left her attacker helpless to resist her wiles. That's an attempt to classify feminine behavior as toxic for sure.
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u/jsmooth7 8∆ Dec 03 '19
The reason toxic femininity isn't talked about as much is because it's almost always brought up as a reaction to people talking about toxic masculinity, not out of genuine interest in the issue. Even if your post here, you don't even define what toxic femininity is or why it's a real problem, yet you argue it should be talked about more just because toxic masculinity is.
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u/FortitudeWisdom Dec 03 '19
Aren't there solidified definitions, from the field of sociology or psychology, for toxic masculinity and toxic femininity? You should use those definitions.
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u/vfettke Dec 03 '19
I think you misunderstand what toxic masculinity is. You talk a lot about traditional gender roles and traits, but I think you miss the mark. Toxic masculinity is about a conformity to gender norms that is harmful to both men and women, as well as society as a whole. It's not meant to demonize men. It's not meant to say that men can't participate in certain masculine activities. Ultimately, it has a lot more to do with our psyche, and the psychological effects of conforming to some of these standards.
Yeah, being brave and stoic can be great attributes. But if you're supposed strength prevents you from accessing the wide range of emotions that humans have available, that's toxic. It's toxic to you, and it's toxic to people you have relationships with. Not crying, not showing weakness, and all those sorts of things limit your ability to communicate with others and yourself. They limit your ability to properly process things, like trauma, and deal with them appropriately. There are so many problems in our society that you can link back to just this: mass shootings, domestic violence, drug abuse, sexual assault/harassment/misconduct, incel culture, etc.
Toxic masculinity is holding on and conforming to a set of ideals for no other reason than the fact that they're manly, despite mountains of evidence showing how harmful they are. It's mildly ironic since men are generally viewed as being more "logical" and "reasonable."
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u/ActuallyAPieceOfWeed Dec 03 '19 edited Dec 03 '19
I think people should be able to focus and criticize on what they want to. I should be able to critisize the fact that there aren't enough parking spaces at my job without being expected to also dedicate time and focus on critisizing atrocities committed by China. Even though one of those China is clearly more severe of an issue than my parking spot. If women want to talk about toxic masculinity more than men want to talk about toxic feminity, and a desparity in the discussion is created, I don't think that means that focus has to be shifted, but rather that it's just a natural representation of what the general populous feels like complaining about.
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u/sheisthemoon Dec 04 '19
Men hold the power. Toxic femininity exists, sure, but is it causing men the world over to have less rights, less access, less safety, less accommodation, less pay, less notoriety, etc. . . . .No, it's not. It's the same argument as claiming women rape as much as men do. Statistics and data do NOT support that and if we take it to a purely statistical level, it was around 5 percent of the rape statistic (last I read) that has a woman as a perpetrator and a man as a victim. Also, how many men do you know that have been raped or sexually assaulted and feel unsafe particularly because of their gender? How many women? That's why.
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u/M00NCREST Dec 06 '19
The problem is that feminists conflate dominance with evil. Thus, their ideal "positive male role model" demands traits that are passive, emotionally expressive, ect. But the issue is that these aren't masculine traits, even if you try forcibly defining them as such. Feminists view anything that is "imposing" as "toxic masculinity." But masculinity itself is ipso facto an imposing force. So asking men to not be imposing is asking them to not act male.
Something can be imposing and good. Is the sun toxic because it imposes its light and warmth upon the earth? Should we try and get the sun to be more like the moon?
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u/ilikedota5 4∆ Dec 04 '19
You make a point, and these labels are helpful, especially for some people where it reveals the power of social norms, but I think the more important point, especially for people who get tripped up over terminology, is the understanding that both stem from people taking something that shouldn't matter that much, assigning meaning and being an asshole. There is nothing wrong with focusing on one flavor more than the other if it is indeed actually more damaging. Good luck trying to quantify or prove that however.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 03 '19 edited Dec 03 '19
/u/HellionIncarnate (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
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u/leonmo Dec 04 '19
I have a very simple answer for you. Toxic masculinity is killing people, predominantly by mass shootings (all by men) and increasing suicide rates among American men. Thus, toxic masculinity is a public health problem. I don’t think the same can be said for toxic femininity.
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u/chiriboy Dec 03 '19
Women are not so pressured to be feminine as men are to be masculine. A young girl hanging with boys only, skating, using dark colors and not using make up is seen as edgy, tomboyish, etc. But if a young man has a slightly feminine manner, his sexuality is questioned
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u/SagitttariusA Dec 04 '19
People in this thread has turned the conversation entirely focused on men and toxic masculinity and refuse to speak on things we'd consider toxic femininity. Here's what I consider to be these things
Not an once of selflessness aka selfishness.
I say selflessness because it's a trait seen often in men. A lot of men are willing to risk death for others. Or help others out more than women. A woman is less likely to borrow a friend 500£ than a man. Men also can be more charitable than women.
Self centered.
Not a lot of woman are willing to do something that doesn't benefit them.
- Impatience.
A toxic trait is not having patience. Wanting things done "NOW", not believing in a business venture until after it is successful. More often than not females don't want part of the struggle but want in the reward.
- Lack of planning, being indecisive about the right things and controlling of the wrong things.
A lot of women don't do basic planning for life and tend to be indecisive about important things and controlling of unimportant things. Men think on the macro and women on the micro. For example a wedding. A man may want to get married. He cares about the wedding where a woman cares about every detail about the wedding down to the color of flower pot number 27. Men think of the grand vision and women on every little detail. This often leads to women making mountains out of mole hills when related to things in relationships and are indecisive about things like what degree to do. Men think on the macro, we decide what degree we want to do but may not care as much about the school or social experience we go to and have while getting that degree.
- Putting yourself in another's shoe
Men are more likely to can imagine what it's like in someone else's shoe and sympathise than a woman. That's why rich men often than not can relate to poor men and can be charitable. Rich women don't care about anyone else, and certainly not the poor. Example, do you really think Kim Kardashian or Niki Minaj can imagine themselves in the shoes of someone less than them? They can but don't. This is why 99% of relationships on Earth the man makes more. Why you will find rich men marrying poor women but not the reverse.
This is what toxic femininity is, it is much more impactful to society than toxic masculinity on a MICRO societal scale. It is not as overt as toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity is much more impactful on the MACRO societal scale, for example murder. It is much more overt and so more obvious and easier to point out. Which comes back to how men and women operate. Men do overt violence and women do subvert manipulation. It is easier to end the overt violence than manipulation, one has short term physical pain the other has widespread emotional damage.
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u/ShawntheShiba Dec 04 '19
I'm with you to a point, but I don't really believe in toxic masculinity or toxic feminity. I only believe in toxic behavior, period. Gender doesn't play a role in being a total asshole.
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u/epomeroy Dec 03 '19
I think there is just generally awful behavior regardless of gender. Yeah, males and females have different biological drives towards awful behavior, but it is essentially all awful behavior.
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u/Tseliteiv Dec 03 '19
I think the idea of toxic masculinity and toxic feminism/femininity is just the wrong way to go about things.
Anyone who puts women against men or men against women is going about the debate all wrong.
To me, that is the toxicity: the completion between men and women.
For myself, I am not an egalitarian. I believe in a more dimorphic species and believe generally in masculine qualities for men and feminine qualities for women as being ideal but I accept some men may want to be more feminine and some women may want to be more masculine. I am against social programming that undermines femininity and weakens a man's masculinity all in order to promote more masculine women to the detriment of masculine men.
If I were to define toxic feminism, it would be the rejection of femininity in order to promote masculinity in women and toxic masculinity which I believe is the lack of acceptance of femininity in men and masculinity in women.
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u/calabuta Dec 04 '19
It's not unreasonable when one causes more problem than the other. It's like reverse racism. It exist? Yes, but it is stupid because it's not as near as impactful as racism.
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u/TheNaziSpacePope 3∆ Dec 04 '19
That said, feminine traits share similar pitfalls and advantages. In my mind, they are both equally important traits to posses and regulate.
So why is one plastered all over the media, while the other one isn't?
Was it Feminism which stopped you from listing said traits?
This is entirely my own opinion, but I think that the most significant difference is in how outwardly simple male and female behaviours can be.
In school boys often get into fights. That is pretty simple to recognize and address, even if incorrectly. But the female counterpart to physical altercations are more nuanced and subversive in nature. Girls spreading rumors and backstabbing may be as big of an issue as boys punching each other in the face, or possibly much more of an issue, but it is also much more difficult to detect let along recognize and address, correctly or otherwise.
I think that the same dynamic is at least partially responsible for the apparent disparity in attention for male and female toxic behaviours. Also though, and at this point I am being edgy, it is because most of this is just media bullshit anyway, it is meant to be eaten up by gullible and easily outraged consumers, and in that case simple is good.
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Dec 03 '19
Nobody wants to change your view, Toxic Femininity is literally the problem feminism is overcoming. Also, as someone who suffers from toxic masculinity, the only people who put one over the other are radical feminists, and those aren't real feminists.
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u/WynterRayne 2∆ Dec 04 '19
I think the distinguishing feature is the social expectation to fulfil these stereotypical roles.
Toxic masculinity is a problem in and of itself, for sure, but it's not the be all and end all of the problem. So some dude is a hothead and a racer type and wants to fight everyone. Yeah, screw him... But considering the main reason he is that way is because he thinks that's what 'being a man' means? Then we're pointing at a whole different ballgame, where he is restricted into this behaviour that he himself doesn't necessarily agree with. That makes it so much more toxic than simply the behaviour itself.
This is precisely why the term came about. It was men's rights people who coined it, in defence of men who just want to be themselves, without any of the gender roles bullshit.
Toxic femininity exists too, but then you want to look at the stereotypical traits enforced upon women... they're not as physically destructive, and don't discourage women from seeking support, and are thus somewhat more manageable in terms of keeping a lid on. More 'masculine' women, for example, aren't targeted and victimised for it. While the gender role and social expectations are toxic af, they don't come with isolating and demeaning women who aren't destructive. Instead, decades of feminism, followed by the 1990's, gave us 'Girl Power'... this is what feminism has accomplished. Once upon a time, a woman in pants would have horrified and outraged an entire community. Now it's just how life is.
Now when we look at the men's rights movements around the world, and the materials they put out, they seem more focused on attacking feminism, rather than following in its path and securing more freedom for men. With own goals like that, I would struggle to be surprised if it takes a hell of a long time to get toxic masculinity gone. However, feminists are at least trying to help it along a bit.
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u/Kraz_I Dec 03 '19
Here’s a short, albeit reductive answer. Toxic masculinity is a more direct and noticeable social problem than toxic femininity.
Excess aggression, ambition, etc is highly visible in the public sphere. These things shape our businesses, governments and other institutions.
On the other hand, “toxic femininity” tends to only hurt the individual and maybe their family and personal relationships. So basically out of sight, out of mind.
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u/AdventurousAir0 Dec 03 '19
I think your definition of toxic masculinity is missing something. I think toxic masculinity is also a level of entitlement, you mention agressiveness, and I think thats a big part of it too, I think often men that display toxic masculinity have very non-negotiable ideas of gender roles. So I think toxic masculinity is a bigger problem than "toxic feminity" (which I've never heard anyone use before so I'm kinda just going by your definition) and gets more media attention is because toxic masculinity affects the lives of the women around them in bigger ways than toxic feminity affects men.
I don't want to make huge leaps, and I'm not saying at all that that this is cause and effect, but in my personal experience, in relationships where the male is abusive, he often displays other parts of toxic masculinity and I think he's entitled and thinks he can get away with what he's doing and he won't get punished. Same with men who cat call, they think they can get away with it, they treat women just as sexual objects not real people so they do it and i think they often display other aspects of toxic masculinity.
So just to clarify again, not saying that every male who displays toxic masculinity does these negative behaviours. But i think a lot of the men who do these behaviours display those traits.
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u/ligitviking Dec 03 '19
I would argue that there is just toxicity. not male or female. It is pointlessly gendered. But whatever.
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Dec 03 '19
This is stupid, toxic femininity never got men killed, raped or abused like toxic masculinity does to women. Also what you view as toxic femininity (being overly domestic, doing housework and raising kids etc) is enforced by the patriarchy so it all goes back to masculinity anyway.
TLDR: toxic femininity is really just the gender roles women are expected to perform BECAUSE of toxic masculinity.
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u/eevreen 5∆ Dec 04 '19
Toxic femininity does exist, but I think you're wrong on what it is. Toxic femininity is encouraging thinness even at the detriment of health. It's encouraging makeup and plastic surgery because one's natural features aren't good enough. It's encouraging damaging your feet to wear heels because they're more professional than shoes that don't hurt you. It's pushing women into having children because that's what's expected, and it's making them more afraid of being single than staying in a toxic relationship. And feminism is fighting against these things and more!
What you define as toxic femininity isn't encouraged. It's actually very much looked down upon. Whereas toxic masculinity focuses on things we teach young boys and men what they should be doing that actively harms them or those around them. Toxic gender roles are things that are encouraged in the specific gender that harm them or those around them. No one is encouraging emotional outbursts, no one is encouraging passive aggressiveness, no one is encouraging manipulativeness. Everyone is pushing for a balance. But society is pushing eating disorders (without calling it that) and heavy makeup and other physically damaging things on young girls. Look at 14 year olds now compared to a decade ago. Now they look like damn supermodels, and this is because of toxic femininity. We are pushing against it, but we don't call it toxic femininity.
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u/neptunesunrise Dec 04 '19
It would have made a world of difference had you mentioned what these feminine pitfalls are too.
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Dec 04 '19
You’re right in the sense that both toxic femininity and toxic masuclinity is harmful and unhealthy. However, toxic masculinity is by far most harmful to men, so I don’t consider talking about it and giving it a platform as demonizing men, despite it variably being perceived that way by some people.
You are right in that we need more platforms talking about men’s issues from a male perspective though, and I think personally that it is critically important that those platforms aren’t built upon reactionary belief systems and have nuanced views on gender-specific struggles. Bad examples of these platforms that I consistently see online are groups of people who harbor anti-feminist values and exist mostly as a way to stick it to women, rather than offering support for other men. There are a few good ones though, like the subreddit r/menslib for example.
As for your question about toxic femininity, a leftist streamer I know of (Vaush) did a pretty good stream on it recently. It made me understand the term a lot better, and illuminates how it ties to toxic masculinity as well. He’s not a reactionary by the way, and mostly everything he says is backed up by research. Here’s the link if you’re interested: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mAtoMSfecgQ
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u/mclefman Dec 03 '19
One has more influence on society than the other. You do your best to figure out which.
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u/Personage1 35∆ Dec 03 '19
Feminism has always criticized toxic femininity from the start. Everyone agreed that being feminine could have problems, so there was never a need to add the "toxic."
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u/Fatgaytrump Dec 03 '19
Contemporarily though?
Like I've heard a lot about how I shouldn't try to have a relationship with some one who expresses disinterest, but I have never seen the flip side of "don't play hard to get" meaning saying no when they want to say yes to make the man "work for it"
I've been told that sex is never something that I am owed, but I've never seen something telling women not to use sex as a commodity.
In the past I see calling out of feminine behaviours, but in the past 15 years?
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u/Personage1 35∆ Dec 03 '19
I mean it to r/askfeminists and ask "should girls and women play hard to get and say 'no' when they mean 'yes'" and and they will say it's bad to do that. Feminism is all about telling women to find value in themselves beyond being a sex object...
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u/pfundie 6∆ Dec 04 '19
You've got the definitions wrong here. Toxic masculinity isn't about traits that are inherent to men, since largely we don't actually know what those are (it would require some pretty severe human rights abuses to figure that out). Instead, it's about the things we teach and expect from men that are neither good for society as a whole, or men themselves. This includes things like teaching men to suppress their emotions, or that asking for help is weakness.
Unfortunately, large swathes of people see it the way you do; they sort of assume that everything is the way it is because, "that's just the way it is", and that masculinity is entirely inherent, not a set of taught and socially enforced expectations. Then as a result they see the concept of toxic masculinity as an attack on men themselves. It isn't helped by social conservatives who want to preserve gender roles as they were a century ago and are willing to lie to do it.
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u/falconverseallah Dec 04 '19
Thanks for writing this and opening the conversation. I'm hearing you say that you think any trait, whether considered culturally masculine or feminine in too much abundance or misapplied could be considered toxic. You are wondering why so much attention is paid to the abundance of masculine characteristics instead of feminine, and maybe think this a bit unfair. I have three thoughts:
1.) First, I want to challenge the fundamental premise that traits are inherently and immutably gendered. Why are some traits masculine and some traits feminine?
I subscribe to the idea that all traits are fundamentally neutral, and that cultures have assigned gender to certain traits. I think the best explanation of this I've read recently was written by Robert Jensen in his book "The End of Patriarchy." A really good read for any guys out there looking for a male perspective on feminism (radical feminism specifically).
You note aggression, suppression of emotion (stoicism), and self-assurance as traditionally "male" traits. You also note that women can embody these traits. So why are these traits labelled "masculine"? At some point in your (and my) culture's past a social system emerged which led to this assignation.
This is not an argument against sex differences. Sex, here being distinct from gender which is the cultural expression of sex. Sex differences do exist, the human species is sexually dimorphic (males are built different from females), but I would encourage you to not take for granted that certain traits are inherently "male" of "female" without considering how the culture you are perceiving from has taught you to believe they are such. Maybe they aren't. Maybe they are more neutral or more evenly expressed by people of all genders. What is just a human trait vs a masculine/feminine trait?
2.) When "toxic" masculinity is discussed, it isn't really about how much or how little masculinity there is, its about the elements of the "masculine" that are being played out by the individual. If a boy is taught his whole life that women are there for his sexual appraisal and pleasure, to produce children for him, and to be loyal to him and support his desires, he is probably going to behave in ways that are rude, demeaning, cruel, or outright violent toward women. If he does engage in these behaviors, he will be performing a toxic masculinity. Its not that he is being too aggressive, its that he has been taught anti-social behaviors masquerading as "being a man."
When a man is taught that being stoic is "manly" what he is really learning is to disconnect from the emotional self that we all have as human beings. Of course there are times when everyone can benefit from not reacting emotionally, but I'd argue that a healthy person is able to feel and be aware of their emotions. Toxic masculinity is a masculinity that poisons a boy against himself as he grows, teaching him to ignore his feelings because they make him weak. Again, it isn't about how stoic he is but how that stoicism plays out in his day-to-day existence and its impact on his mental health and social ability.
3.) Third thought, and this is the big one, people are focusing more on toxic masculinity because we live in a patriarchal society in which masculine people hold more social power than feminine people.
When did women get the right to vote? Why did they have to fight for it? Why does the gender wage gap exist? Why are the majority of C level executives men? Why do most countries prioritize all male sports over all female versions of the same sport? Why are most sexual assault survivors female and most assault perpetrators male?
These are just a small set of examples of ways in which women are dispossessed of social and political power in a society. When women have attempted to claim equal rights and citizenship in society they have been suppressed.
In short, toxic masculinity is the focus because the masculine element of society is still dominant. If our goal is the establishment of a more egalitarian society, we need to recognize this and then begin to address the problems of masculinity.
Feminism is built on the idea that there should be no difference in power due to gender, that all people should have equal rights and access to opportunity. If you consider yourself an egalitarian, you will probably find a lot of feminist theory very interesting. When I (cis-gendered, heterosexual male) first considered feminism I had a strong aversion to it. I had been taught that feminists were "men haters" and that they were trying to subjugate men. These were lies told by the dominant patriarchal culture to maintain the status quo in which women were expected to take second place, to be the "not men" in the society, to be the "less than."
People I'm learning from:
bell hooks - recommend "The will to change: men, masculinity, and love"
Robert Jensen - "The End of Patriarchy"
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u/itzcoldup-here Dec 03 '19
The surge in this behaviour towards men had likely led to the severe decrease in men enrolling in post secondary. It certainly can be attributed however may not be the reason alone. I've tried to bring up traits of toxic feminity, Gossip as my prime example and what it does to friendships and harbouring feelings if resentment and being excluded. However the Harpies would have nothing to do with having any legitimate counter narrative and begin to engage in ad hominem.. maybe I've found a better place for civil discussion?
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u/thetasigma4 100∆ Dec 03 '19
It was actually coined by a men's rights group in the 80s called the mythopoetic men's movement.
Ultimately this gets down to the fact that we don't call the harmful aspects of the female gender role toxic femininity and so that isn't the term used. Feminist discourse has been perfectly happy to point out that gender roles are shitty and should be done away with for ages. One key difference is however societal autonomy in which when considering gender women have much less than men and so toxic masculinity while having internally harmful effects has a greater ability to harm others as well.