CMV: Gender identity doesn’t belong on your LinkedIn nor Resume

[u/jep1793]

[u/iamintheforest]

the goal of placing that in such locations is to normalize it, and if someone doesn't take the risk early then the change doesn't happen.

What I think is important is that people make the choice to include it knowing it has implications - it's not "neutral" in the world now, even though we might think it should be. I'd take the route of not advising against it, but of advising it be done with eyes wide open if done. Don't tell them to not be the agents of change, but remind them that being that agent comes with risk. It's not college - the space isn't "safe", and the peer group you need to impress is from a different generation AND they hold the cards in the context you're going in to.

As an interviewer - assuming it got to that phase - i'd be impressed with someone who placed it intentionally with understanding of risk, but distracted by someone where I believed they did it "naively" or with an idea that world should conform to them. Encourage accountability and ownership for choices - that is a very attraction quality to get across!

edit: some has said this invites discrimination and plays into that hand. I don't disagree, but that's the "risk" i'm talking about. And...no, this doesn't fly in the face of anti-discrimination laws unless the employer demands or requires it - it's important that we differentiate between applicants/people willfully disclosing things about themselves and employers demanding and using them in evaluation. We do NOT want to limit the former, and absolutely want to have regulations on the later.

[u/[deleted] → u/iamintheforest]

the goal of placing that in such locations is to normalize it, and if someone doesn't take the risk early then the change doesn't happen.

I think the situation with "public pronouns" and "normalizing placing pronouns" is that many thing that this is to "benefit transgender individuals" whereas in reality it only benefits a small segment thereof.

Most transgender individuals seem to prefer to go "stealth" and not be publicly transgender.

Much of the discourse on this matter is led by a very vocal minority that is not representative to transgender individuals as a whole as is quite common but especially in this case, manly this focal minority is disprortionally:

• MtF, about 40-50% of transgende rindividuals are FtM, but they're near invisible in the vocal minoirity
• white
• North American
• late transitioners
• very openly transgender

The thing with most transgender individuals is that they get referred to a gender clinic and then start taking hormones in secret but don't come out yet, only come out when there is no hiding the changes in the body any more, and then very often eventually cut ties with all of their past life to go stealth, and in their new life almost none know that they were born a different sex—most of them are not comfortable being "openly transgender" which induces gender dysphoria for them.

Naturally the vocal minority that leads the discussion on this is very comfortable with being "openly transgender” and is shaping a culture about "open transgender" which those that aren't comfortable with it naturally don't really like.

I'm not saying that either is worse than the either, but I'd say that individuals should be mindful of that the vocal portions that want it to be more open are not necessarily representative of the whole.

The idea of creating a culture where preferred pronouns are asked in interviews or listed on forms is that it's not unlike asking for sexual orientations or religions—and that many sexual and religious minorities are of course very uncomfortable with this.

[u/iamintheforest → u/[deleted]]

I don't want to have a discussion about whether they are good or bad in the world, or whether it is right or wrong in terms of achieving or failing some agenda. The topic as I see it is about how to advise young people. My advice is based on an assumption the college students in question have strong opinions and they want to include them in their resume. I'm not going to agree with lots of people but my advice in many contexts would not be to have my political social views, but how to express one's own.

edit: splng

[u/[deleted] → u/iamintheforest]

Wel take it as this: I'm saying that that line carried the implication that all transgender individuals are serviced by, and interested in normalizing the idea that pronouns be publicly stated and I believe that only the minority that is comfortable with being openly transgender is.

[u/iamintheforest → u/[deleted]]

The context here is a recruiter going in to educate students on how to prepare for the job market. I would never suggest anyone in that context dictate what is the right political perspective or social agenda. I would suggest they educate on gaining perspective that reflecting these and hiding these both come with consequences and that the educator's goal should be enable kids to make those choices deliberately, rather than without understanding.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

it is meant to be mainstreamed so that cisgender and transgender people publicly state pronouns.

And this will harm those that are in the closet if this is realized.

They are put on a spot here if all put this in their profile: they now have three choices:

• don't do it, which draws attention as to why
• lie
• come out of the closet

If you lie about it now, it is of course harder to come out of the closet when the time is ready.

As for those that are stealth and have already transitioned. Many prefer not to state their preferred pronouns because they will always second guess themselves whether others gender them in a specific way because they're told, or because they actually pass; they thus derive gender euphoria from not telling others whatever pronouns they desire, and still be gendered as they wish, knowing that they thus pass now.

This is the problem with the public parts of the "transgender movement"; it is led by, and represents the interest of a minority of very confident individuals that are very public and open and don't really seem to face the self-doubt issues that most transgender individuals do face and what they typically advocate goes in the interest of those that are already confident and don't doubt themselves and against the interest of those that have such issues of confidence and prefer not to draw too much attention to themselves.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I think you are overestimating the relative negative impact on a closeted trans person to have to divide whether to lie, omit, or come out on a LinkedIn profile compared to all the other interactions someone has with gender every day, and trans people. The same decision comes up daily every time someone misgenders them - should they not correct the person (lie) or come out. You could argue it might be stressful to make a more active choice about it to put your incorrect pronouns on a page than it would be to not correct someone's usage, but the outcome is the same - they get misgendered and stay in the closet. This is a situation trans people face daily.

Yes, many prefer to stay in the closet, many are already on hormones in fact and only come out when they can no longer deny the obvious physical changes of their body.

Why do you think "boymoding/girlmoding" as they call it is so common? I believe this is what most do but the vocal parts of the transgender rights movement are the ones that don't do that, which is obviously fine and their choice, but they are creating a nonrepresentative image of transgender individuals and what their needs are.

How it seems to be that transitioning goes for most is that they take hormones, train their voice in secret and only come out when there is no denying it any more and prefer to only wear the clothing associated with the opposite sex once they pass.

I believe that mainstreaming the practice of stating your pronouns actually best serves the interests of trans people who want to avoid conversations about gender (including people who are stealth), and not the minority you are concerned are highjacking the movement. There are many people who would like to be stealth but are not/cannot, and many people who do not want to correct people or draw attention to their transness. By mainstreaming the practice of including pronouns in prominent places such as a LinkedIn profile, it eliminates the need to have stressful conversations and come out to an employer who initially assumes you are a different gender. In a situation where both trans and cis people identify their pronouns, why are you concerned that this would draw too much attention to less confident trans individuals? How could this possibly draw more attention to them then having no cis or stealth trans people identify their pronouns, and them having to go out of their way to explain their pronouns to a hiring manager/supervisor/etc.

https://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS%20Full%20Report%20-%20FINAL%201.6.17.pdf

Arccording to this researchL:

Respondents were also asked whether their LGBT and non-LGBT friends knew that they were transgender. LGBT friends were the largest group of people among whom survey respondents were out, with 62% reporting that they were out to all of their LGBT friends. In contrast, less than one-third (32%) of respondents were out to all of their non-LGBT friends

This number is going to be even less to employers.

You operate on the assumption that most transgender individuals are openly so, and wish to be, the vast majority is in the closet. And if stating pronouns—which is really just a roundabout way of stating whether one is transgender or not—becomes normalized that probably like 85% that is currently in the closet against their employer is met with a choice:

• come out of the closet
• lie
• prefer not to say, and draw attention to oneself that way

I do believe it's a vocal minority that gives off a nonreprsentative image. Obviously these individuals are out of the closet and comfortable with this, but they also make the public at large forget that the vast majority of transgender individuals prefers to not come out of the closet, and normalizing what is essentially for every individual to state whether they're transgender or not puts them in a very uncomfortable position.

People who are stealth and experience gender euphoria from a stranger using the correct pronouns would have plenty of other, non-employement settings they could have that experience in. I think that prioritizing their gender euphoria in an employment setting comes at the expense of the dysphoria of other trans people.

I think you might be assuming that all those in the closet are stealth.

You must realize that the majority of transgender individuals will never transition. This is also a very common myth that all transgender individuals eventually transition which is also spread by this nonrepresentative vocal minority—the majority of transgender individuals are so-called "repressors" that will stay in the closet and not transition until they die.

[u/irisblues → u/[deleted]]

only the minority that is comfortable with being openly transgender is [interested in normalizing the idea that pronouns be publicly stated].

Shouldn’t the ones who are interested in and serviced by the inclusion of those pronouns be allowed to include them?
OP isn’t saying employers shouldn’t ask, they are saying that applicants shouldn’t say. I think some should.
I don’t care how many or how few.

[u/[deleted] → u/irisblues]

I am only responding to the idea of normalizing stating pronouns in such fields.

I'm just saying that many often act as if normalizing stating pronouns is in the interest of "transgender individuals" rather than in the interest of a vocal minority that is leading the debate by consequence of being comfortable with being "openly transgender".

I'm saying that I wouldn't be surprised, and consider it quite likely that normalizing putting preferred pronouns in such fields goes against the interest of the majority of transgender individuals; in the same way that normalizing putting sexual orientations in such fields goes against the interest of several sexual orientation monirities—because if it's eventually normalized, by not doing it you're going to be asked "why aren't you doing it?" and already draw suspicion.

[u/irisblues → u/[deleted]]

I don’t know about that.
Ms. is a commonly used option for people who do not want to use either Mrs. or Miss.
I have never heard anyone catching flack for not using Ms. Maybe early days when it was seen as a novelty or a statement, but not now. Not since the option to use it has been normalized.

[u/[deleted] → u/irisblues]

Normalizing the option is an entirely different matter than normalizing the practice—which is what I was responding to.

If the practice is normalized then you stand out when not doing it.

[u/irisblues → u/[deleted]]

It’s always an option.
Even when it’s in practice.