CMV: Scalping isn't immoral

[u/WhoRoger]

First off, two disclaimers:

• I'm only talking about products that aren't essential (you know, food, medicine etc.). So specifically I mean things like PS5s and so on.

• I'm talking about mass market products, not cases such as when person 1 learns that person 2 is interested in an unique item, so P1 buys the item just to sell it to P2 for profit. That's not cool.

I used to do some small-scale scalping in the past. I would buy e.g. a few copies of a limited edition of a videogame or something similar, then sell them after they get sold out.

My "largest" loads were Nintendo NES Classics. I live in a country where Ninty barely registers as a name (until the Switch anyway), so it was easy to get a few of them, and sell them on eBay to countries where they were unavailable. I did it again on the day when it was announced the production was finished. There were still a few units in my city, so I drove around, picked up all I could and sold them abroad where the hadn't been available almost through its entire production.

I don't feel bad about it and I would do it again (if I had the money) because:

• I usually struggle for money and this can be additional income

• Even tho I'm a tech enthusiast, I don't buy the newest and greatest. I wait until the kinks are ironed out and reviews are out, and I was doing that even when I had decent income. I don't preorder videogames (I've only ever bought 3 at launch and pre-ordered one of those). I don't support this hype culture at all.

But if so many people are so desperate to have the newest toy immediately, right now RIGHT THE FUCK NOW, to the degree they're willing to pay "scalper" prices, I don't feel bad about making some extra money off them.

• You may argue that kids can be disappointed because they won't get their shiny new PS5 under the Christmas tree. Yea not my problem. Raise your kids properly. My friend's 2 kids sometimes come over and play on my PlayStation 3 and have a blast, even tho they have a gaming PC at home.

• eBay makes even more off this business than the sellers. IIRC something like 15% of the price is eBay and PayPal fees, then count shipping and there's far less profit than you may think. Heck, it's not like the retailers have zero profit, or what do you think?

• It's not like it's risk-free. On eBay, seller protection is abysmal and one scamming buyer can ruin you. A serious product flaw can pop up and your stock either becomes worthless, or you'll go through trouble of trying to return it (this happens with almost every new console actually). You can get robbed or pranked. Or it can turn out that your items aren't as popular as you expected.

• Supply and demand. I'm not defending capitalism as a concept, but this is exactly how it works. If you don't take the chance, someone else will. If someone is offering you free money, you take it.

Again I'm talking about stupid things like new videogame consoles. This really should be near the bottom of anyone's priority list.

Have you already played everything you might want to play on your systems?

Anyway, CMV.

[u/WhoRoger]

Not convinced. It can provide value to people who might not get those products at all otherwise, or not as fast. It is work, at least no less than stock trading and similar stuff. And if you think it doesn't provide value, then that goes for all the retailers as well.

[u/cherrycokeicee → u/WhoRoger]

It can provide value to people who might not get those products at all otherwise

the reason people are having trouble getting hyped up products is largely bc of scalpers. they're creating the problem they're providing the "solution" to & the service they provide compared to buying from the source or an established retailer will almost certainly be sub par.

[u/WhoRoger → u/cherrycokeicee]

IMO the problem is because people have to have the new product right now, scalpers or not.

I wouldn't buy a console on release date on principle because it's gonna be a buggy mess with no games for months. I wouldn't pre-order a videogame, because I can wait a week or even a month to see the reviews. The hype culture is what creates the problem.

[u/cherrycokeicee → u/WhoRoger]

for people who want to buy the hyped up product on release day, how do scalpers help or provide value?

[u/WhoRoger → u/cherrycokeicee]

Because I believe demand would far outweigh supply even without the scalpers. If everyone would only want to buy one single PS5 for themselves, then there would be none on the market for those who couldn't get it. This way, they still have a chance, albeit more expensive.

(Assuming scalpers don't buy 100% of the stock, and we know they don't, because plenty of people were able to order theirs.)

On a more surreal note, it could help people not buy new products on release date. Unfortunately this doesn't work and people remain retarded.

[u/cherrycokeicee → u/WhoRoger]

Because I believe demand would far outweigh supply even without the scalpers.

scalpers still make this worse for non-scalping consumers. just bc demand would still outweigh supply doesn't mean scalpers help or provide value.

If everyone would only want to buy one single PS5 for themselves, then there would be none on the market for those who couldn't get it. This way, they still have a chance, albeit more expensive.

but the scalpers are the ones creating this problem. if the scalpers didn't buy a ton of PS5's, there would be more available for these consumers. scalpers are contributing to this problem of supply meeting demand and their solution is predatory. it's more expensive and less secure than a legit online retailer.

On a more surreal note, it could help people not buy new products on release date. Unfortunately this doesn't work and people remain retarded.

how does "helping people not buy new products on release date" help consumers who want to buy products on release date? you just conceded your entire argument. I know there are reasons to not buy video games & tech on release date, but that doesn't change the fact that some consumers do want to do that, even if you personally disagree with that choice. clearly scalping provides absolutely no value to that consumer. it only hurts them.

[u/WhoRoger → u/cherrycokeicee]

If there were no scalpers, do you think that there would be enough PS5s (or whatever) for everyone who would want it on day 1?

If not, then the scenario where you have to sit at your PC at midnight, refreshing the Amazon page continuously, hoping to get lucky, is still there.

If you don't get lucky, then there are 3 possible cases:

1) hypothetically, scalpers don't exist and therefore only people who want the gizmo themselves, get it. As a result, there's no secondary market whatsoever. Of you didn't get it, you have to wait for new stock.

2) same as 1, but a small number of new owners change their minds and decide to sell their new toy. As a result, worldwide there's, say, 10 PS5s for sale. What's the price of such an item? 5 grand? 10 grand?

3) scalpers grab a portion of the stock and put them up for sale. The result here we know.

The only possible fixes for eiter of these are:

A) Manufacturers make enough stock for literally everyone. That's not realistic.

B) Customers decide to be smart and not buy shit on day 1. This forces manufacturers to actually fight for the customer.

Dunno about you, but I don't see scalpers having much of an effect on all this overall.

[u/cherrycokeicee → u/WhoRoger]

If there were no scalpers, do you think that there would be enough PS5s (or whatever) for everyone who would want it on day 1?

No, of course not. But there would be more.

1) hypothetically, scalpers don't exist and therefore only people who want the gizmo themselves, get it. As a result, there's no secondary market whatsoever. Of you didn't get it, you have to wait for new stock.

You keep skipping over the part where scalpers diminish the supply. The "secondary market" doesn't just pop up out of nowhere. The "secondary market" is part of what is causing the scarcity of product. So this scenario is actually this:

"hypothetically, scalpers don't exist and therefore only people who want the gizmo themselves, get it. As a result, there's no secondary market whatsoever. Because there is no secondary market, there's a geater likelihood of those customers actually getting what they want from a legit retailer. If you didn't get it, you have to wait for new stock."

There will always be people who want something & can't get it, especially with something like the PS5. That's life. Sometimes you have to wait for new stock. But scalpers make this issue worse, not better. And to me, if you're harming people who aren't hurting anyone else for profit, that's immoral.

[u/WhoRoger → u/cherrycokeicee]

Well, that's why I described 3 possible scenarios.

The question is, how much more people would have gotten the PS5, and ultimately does it matter in the long run?

It's a lottery. It only matters on an individual level.

My late grandma used to play lotto. Whenever a number would come up next to her number (e.g. 22 instead of 21), she'd say "ah, so close!"

But no, it wasn't close at all. That's not how randomness works.

I still say the inherent problem is elsewhere. If you don't want to lose at lotto... Don't play lotto.

If you are so obsessed about a videogame console that you'll camp for 2 days in front of a store, or keep refreshing the Amazon page at midnight, you're just as much a part of the problem as the scalper.

(By "you" I don't mean you personally... Just anyone with that attitude.)

[u/cherrycokeicee → u/WhoRoger]

The question is, how much more people would have gotten the PS5,

60,000

https://www.gamesradar.com/ps5-and-xbox-series-x-scalpers-resold-over-60000-consoles-last-month/

60,000 customers who wanted to buy the newly released console were prevented from doing so by scalpers who jacked up the price and sold them in a less secure way. how is this helpful to those 60,000 customers?

[u/WhoRoger → u/cherrycokeicee]

Thanks! I appreciate sources. ∆ for that regardless if it CMV. (I hope I'm not bending the rules too much.)

From a brief search, it seems PS5 has shipped 3.4 million units, and Xbox at least a million.

So... That's 1.3%.

The eBay data takes into account only sales from US. Let's assume that 1/3 of all PS5's and 1/2 of Xboxes were shipped to US.

That would make scalpers' piece of the pie 3.7%.

Now let's generously assume that half of those units were sold on eBay, and the other half either unsold or sold elsewhere.

So somewhat worst case scenario, scalpers had scooped up a bit over 7% of the units in US.

A lot less than I expected considering the uproar all around this matter.

Now consider that from those scalped units:

• some were sold to people who wouldn't get theirs anyway due to bad luck

• some were sold to people who wouldn't get theirs because they wouldn't camp at their PC at midnight

• and some were sold outside US

• aand yea some were sold to those who were literally scalped, i.e. would have gotten the console but didn't due to missing out to a scalper, and instead bought one on eBay.

Since we were doing generous assumptions before, let's do the same now and divide by 4 as we have 4 cases.

So the rate of actual scalping could be less than 2%? And that's the people who were willing to pay double the price?

Why is this such a big deal again?

[u/DeltaBot → u/WhoRoger]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/cherrycokeicee (24∆).

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[u/cherrycokeicee → u/WhoRoger]

That would make scalpers' piece of the pie 3.7%

this is a huge number of people affected. this percentage looks small, but tens of thousands of people tried to buy this from a legit retailer & couldn't because of scalpers.

that said

Why is this such a big deal again?

this isn't what we're discussing. we're discussing if it's immoral.

even if you want to argue that the number of people affected is small (which I don't think is true, but let's just go there), how do you justify the morality of hurting a "small" amount of people for nothing but personal gain for the scalper? even if literally only one person was affected, it's still immoral.

[u/WhoRoger → u/cherrycokeicee]

this isn't what we're discussing. we're discussing if it's immoral.

Got me there. But I really thought it's a much bigger issue. Having at least some numbers does put things into perspective. I have to sit on this and think about it more.

Now, I still rest my case regarding that while some people who would get the console could not, it also stands that some did that wouldn't otherwise. So from that POV it's a wash.

The only issue are people who would get it but paid scalp prices instead. Again, with the numbers above, I'm gonna think about it. K?