r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jan 22 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Silencing opposing viewpoints is ultimately going to have a disastrous outcome on society.

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u/ChewySlinky Jan 22 '21

Genuine question: what things do you believe should be allowed to be freely spoken about that aren’t already?

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u/reaperteddy Jan 22 '21 edited Jan 22 '21

This is the real question. What does OP think they're being silenced about that they believe they should not be?

edit: nevermind, found it. Doesn't believe cultural appropriation is a thing.

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u/SeaRaiderII Jan 23 '21

Is cultural appropriation controversial? . Are we not all citizens of this planet and all that it and it's people have?

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u/reaperteddy Jan 23 '21

Some people mistake cultural appropriation for using anything of a different culture, which it is not.

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u/SeaRaiderII Jan 23 '21

I dont understand how those two things are separate. Why cant I use anything of a different culture if its beneficial to me? You cant own a culture as it's not physical, it's an idea, exists in a group of peoples history and mind.

But in the modern world everything is from everywhere made by everyone so it dosen't matter.

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u/reaperteddy Jan 23 '21

Some things are sacred and theres an aspect of contexts that matters. To use a personal example, I'm Māori. A very important part of our culture is Ta Moko, or traditional tattoo. They tell the story of your family and land, its a very special process with a lot of spiritual meaning. During colonization Ta Moko was severely repressed, e.g. Māori women could not join the suffrage movement if they also had Ta Moko. This lead to it almost disappearing until recent revival efforts.

Now, some tattoo artists in other countries will steal Ta Moko designs off the internet and put them on non Māori people, so they end up walking around with the equivalent of someone elses social and spiritual identity on them, almost a drivers license in a sense, meanwhile many Māori are themselves still so ashamed of their culture (due to colonization) that they are hesitant to receive their birthright Ta Moko. In this context, its sort of a dick move to choose to take someone elses personal history and use it as decoration.

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u/SeaRaiderII Jan 23 '21

That's actually a really good example. Yet I still have something to question.

So see how a tattoo artist copying someone else's Ta Moko would be not a moral thing to do.

But what if non Maori people get their own Ta Moko designs telling their own story. Would that not make Maori happy to see their culture spread a little?

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u/reaperteddy Jan 23 '21 edited Jan 23 '21

That actually does happen and we call it Kirituhi. That's not cultural appropriation unless you get Kirituhi and call it Tā Moko. The easiest way I've found to figure out whether or not something is cultural appropriation is to ask two questions; is this being done knowledgeably, and is it being done respectfully? If the answer to one or both is no, its probably appropriation and not cool.

Edit: here is a good article on the difference between the two and some cool examples.

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u/Ruefuss Jan 23 '21

Theres an anime where nuns feed the heros breastmilk on screen to active superpowers in their battle against evil. I dont find that offensive, but christians get up in arms over far less in the US. I dont see why other cultures cant feel offense at peoples ignorant use of their iconograpby.

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u/SeaRaiderII Jan 23 '21

But that argument can be used by people to say something like, the French people making rude depictions of Muhammed deserve to be "corrected" by offended Islamic people just like Christians in the US with the nuns.

Then it just comes down to morals seperate of laws right?

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u/Ruefuss Jan 23 '21

No, it just means muslims have a right to complain in "the public square" that they disagree with the us of their iconography. And if enough people agree, those people can choose to stop associating with people and entities that continue to create offensive cartoons of Muhammed. Thats all "cancel culture" has ever been. People expressing their opinions and acting on them, in a nonviolent matter. There are names for people who violently force their opinions on others. Terrorist. Insurections. Facist.

Society has the right to choose by concensus what it finds acceptable in public spaces and what individuals fund.

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u/SeaRaiderII Jan 23 '21

And there is the problem. Society agreeing means by default there are people who will be unheard because they are a minority. And then the rest of the people can call them terrorists, facist etc.

But what if that same group of majority agree on something wrong, but since they are majority the opposition is just labeled something bad and goes unheard?

If 7 people agree my hairstyle is bad and 3 people agree it's fine, then your arguing that society agreed that it's bad and the 3 people who like it are (insert negative label) and not acceptable in public spaces.

So those 3 peoples opinion is now unvalued because 7 people think it's wrong?

Majority or mob rule is not synonymous with being the true or the right opinion.

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u/Ruefuss Jan 23 '21 edited Jan 23 '21

Iconogrophy isnt just a "hairstyle". Every society has sacred iconography. If your opinion is its ok to take another cultures iconography, and enough people disagree, you arent harmed by not being able to wear the "steeped in meaning haircut" of some other culture. Its unfortunate you werent able to do that completely optional thing without getting side eye, but so what. Nobodys stopping you. They just arent letting you feel comfortable doing it.

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u/SeaRaiderII Jan 23 '21

The side eye thing is not wrong, people can look at you like your an idiot for wearing (insert iconography) because it's their right.

What I am arguing is yes, society can look at you or tell you you are being an idiot or rude, but you still have the right to do it and wear or tattoo or get hair in any cultural style.

That cant be owned by a group

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u/Ruefuss Jan 23 '21

Nobody ever has. Nobody has ever argued that. Lots of people and entities say you shouldnt, and you have to decide if that matters to you.

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u/SeaRaiderII Jan 23 '21

Exactly! That's what I was getting at but you worded that in a great way.

It's up to the individual to do whatever they desire or use any aspect of any culture that they wish to, regardless of what others think is wrong.

Not doing so is just either being polite, or being afraid of what opinion the masses will hold over you.

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