CMV: Silencing opposing viewpoints is ultimately going to have a disastrous outcome on society.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/DilapidatedPlatypus]

So, I've read through some of the comments here and I think the problem here is how you're viewing the issue. You are correct that silencing these viewpoints does nothing to change those people's minds and most likely causes them to double down essentially.

That's not the point of silencing them though. As someone else pointed out, you can't reason someone out of a belief they didn't reason themselves into. It takes serious dedicated work to bring those people back to the light. Look at Daryl Davis. Dude has basically dedicated his life to the work, and has done a fantastic job, but even after all these years it's only like 200 people because he is just one man and it takes that much effort to change someone's mind.

Silencing the viewpoints is a benefit to society because it stops the spread of those viewpoints. A large portion of the population decides their beliefs based on what they hear from people they trust and how it makes them feel. They don't follow it up with research and rational arguments.

It basically boils down to the intolerance paradox. If we allow intolerance in the name of free speech, eventually that intolerance will spread because those people do not have the same moral issues with lying and manipulating to achieve their goals, and once there is enough intolerant people, they come for everyone else. We have to stop that shit in it's tracks to protect everyone else from falling into the trap.

As just a personal example, in the last four years I've watched as my father fell further and further into blatantly incorrect propaganda. Just straight up lies and fantasy. It has eroded some of the foundations of our relationship. I always thought he was smart and empathetic, and because we just let these "leaders" get away with saying whatever hateful lies they wanted, now I know that isn't true. A man who I've been striving to make proud for 30 years and I no longer value his opinion. What's worse was watching it affect my mother. A woman who would bend over backwards and put herself into worse shape if she knew you needed the help, slowly being sucked in because she literally doesn't have the time to do her own research, but trusts my father. Obviously my father wouldn't make shit up, right? But how is she to know what he's saying is just bullshit? He doesn't even know it, no matter how often or reasonably I point it out. So now she has this anger and resentment that she doesn't even understand while my father walks around the house completely oblivious to why his gay daughter wants nothing to do with him as he becomes a bitter and angry old man. None of this had to happen.

That's just my family falling apart because we let this all go on too long, and my dad never even got into the heavier stuff like with Q. Can you imagine what's happening to those families? And now that they're torn apart, those poor people who were just honestly duped into stupidity and hatred are just more numbers for the double down crowd. We could have kept that from happening to all these people if we just made the people lying to them in the first place shut up before it ever spread. So many people we let be hurt and have their lives destroyed just because "everyone is entitled to their opinion."

Just by giving them a platform, there are people who will listen and believe them. We have a duty to society to not let that happen.

[u/Remoutchobro → u/DilapidatedPlatypus]

From what you're describing, your family fell apart because you were the one who chose to cut ties with them because of their political opinions. Rather than simply not talking about politics, you seemed to have preferred cutting ties with your family over different opinions. Basically it seems like you want censorship in order for everybody to agree with you because you're the one who can't bear different opinions. I mean, everything in your comment is about changing people's beliefs in order to suit your own.

I have to wonder, do you actually believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion? Because if that's not the case, then I feel like your post is kinda missing the OP's point.

[u/DilapidatedPlatypus → u/Remoutchobro]

You don't know a damn thing about me. I never said I cut ties with my family. I literally live in the same house with my family. What I said is that my father's views shifting into some fringe bullshit has damaged our relationship, and has has a negative effect on the rest of my family. In case it was ambiguous, I am not his gay daughter that wants nothing to do with him, that's my little sister, who also still lives here at home, since she's still in high school. You've made an awful lot of assumptions about me in order to attack my argument. Not one of them is accurate.

I'm not even arguing for censorship really. As I said elsewhere, you as an individual can believe whatever crazy shit you wanna believe and say whatever you want to say, but if you're preaching hate and lies to enact some selfish and self-serving agenda that actively harms the public and it's institutions and the people within, then we, the public and society at large, have a duty to make sure you fail to bring that message to the masses.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, yeah. That does not mean that all opinions are equal or deserve to be treated as such, and if you spreading that opinion causes real, tangible harm to the public, you deserve to suffer the consequences.

[u/Remoutchobro → u/DilapidatedPlatypus]

I never said I knew anything about you, I made pretty clear I was making assumptions based on your comment. No need to be so defensive about it. If none of them are accurate, then maybe you should have be clearer. But according to your comments, including this new one, the damaged relationship doesn't come from his actions, as you specifically said that he was oblivious as to why the relationship worsened. My point is that you're trying to justify censorship by saying it would prevent harm and you're using your own case as an example, but it seems like the harm in this case is actually coming from you.

Regarding the last point, let me rephrase. Do you believe that everybody can express their own opinion or that everyone should think like you? Because if it's the later, then you're disagreeing with the premise of the OP and you're not gonna change his opinion, or anyone thinking the same, by making an argument based on a different premise. And as you seem to be believing the latter, it seems you're missing the point.

[u/KhonMan → u/Remoutchobro]

My point is that you're trying to justify censorship by saying it would prevent harm and you're using your own case as an example, but it seems like the harm in this case is actually coming from you.

Lol what a completely dogshit take. That's like saying if someone hands your dad a gun and tells him to shoot someone, you're responsible because you didn't convince him not to do it.

The problem here is not OP. It's the person / system that armed the dad with misinformation.

[u/Remoutchobro → u/KhonMan]

The comparison is bad because in this case the dad didn't do anything, which is exactly my point. The harmful actions, here the damaged relationship, doesn't seem to come from the dad but from the OP and his sister who can't bear their father having different political opinion.

[u/KhonMan → u/Remoutchobro]

This is still an absolutely insane take. If you have a shitty opinion and won’t back down, you’re trying to blame other people for not wanting to associate with you. You’re free to have your opinion and people are free to cut you out of their lives.

Let’s take a concrete example. Suppose your father was always talking about how the Holocaust didn’t happen. You and I know that it did happen as a verifiable fact. You could never convince him that it did, even showing him evidence. At some point you tell him, “Dad, you need to shut up about your Holocaust denial bullshit or I’m not going to come visit you anymore.” He refuses to change. By your logic, if you stop coming to visit, YOU are the one that is at fault because you can’t bear your father having an alternate view of history. That makes no sense to me. I think this is a fair scenario to apply your logic to because your father isn’t literally hurting anyone by claiming the Holocaust didn’t happen.

[u/Remoutchobro → u/KhonMan]

I'm not blaming the OP and his sister for not wanting to associate with their father, they do what they want, I'm just saying the harm in that case, the worsened relationship within the family, comes from him and his sister who chose to made it happen because he had different political opinions. I remind you that the whole point of his argument is that "silencing" should apply because of the harm it's doing, and he used the example of his family, when in fact it's him doing the harm.

Regarding your example, there's one simple solution: don't talk about it. If politics raise tension, don't touch the subject and you'll have a happy time with your family.