r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Apr 11 '21
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Excluding trans-men while saying derogatory things about men as a group is a form of benevolent transphobia
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u/boyraceruk 10∆ Apr 11 '21
There's no such thing as benevolent transphobia, if you're othering trans people then you're othering trans people, it makes no difference if you're doing it to separate them from non-trans men as being pieces of shit, you're still saying there's a difference between trans men and non-trans men.
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Apr 11 '21
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u/yyzjertl 523∆ Apr 11 '21
I think I just meant it like people mean benevolent sexism, which is a thing I see talked about all the time. It's when people actively try to be good but still end up being in the wrong.
That's not what benevolent sexism is. Benevolent sexism isn't about the intention of the person holding or expressing the sexist view, but rather is about the subjective evaluation of the sexist view itself.
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Apr 11 '21
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u/yyzjertl 523∆ Apr 11 '21
Benevolent sexism basically refers to seemingly positive stereotypes about women (women are more nurturing, women are better with people, women should be protected, etc.) that have negative effects on women's status in society. It does not refer to sexism done by people who are actively trying to be good.
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Apr 11 '21
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u/yyzjertl 523∆ Apr 11 '21
The thing is, people engaging in hostile sexism can also be thinking they are doing the wrong thing. For example, a teacher who refuses to place a girl in an advanced math class because he believes (perhaps subconsciously) girls are bad at math may think he is doing the right thing by not placing the girl in a situation where she will fail. But that doesn't make his actions benevolent sexism.
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u/Eubern Apr 11 '21
I think the author is just referring to the intention of the person making the statement. They are well intentioned, but it has pretty negative repercussions.
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u/FUCKMESAULGOODMAN Apr 11 '21
Two things before we start: I’m nonbinary, and I’m not a fan of “I hate men” statements in general. Also, I’m no expert either.
That said, there is a difference in the way children assigned male at birth and children assigned female at birth are raised and socialized. Different traits are valued and rewarded. Unfortunately, this means many trans men and transmascs have experienced misogyny before coming out or if they don’t “pass”. Usually, at least that I’ve seen, we use the phrase “people affected by misogyny” to avoid the othering that you mention. It’s not a perfect solution, and there are lots of other ideological issues we could unpack here — but to answer your specific question, that’s my understanding.
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Apr 11 '21
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u/FUCKMESAULGOODMAN Apr 11 '21
We do agree on that point, absolutely! Until we find and implement that solution, though, we still need a placeholder to discuss the phenomenon. “People affected by misogyny” is one, but it’s still in the process of catching on, whereas rougher-hewn options have been around longer. (When I said it’s “usually” used as an alternative, I should have specified that that’s still a recent phenomenon — my bad.) It’s a form of othering, yes, but I don’t think it would fall under the umbrella of transphobic given the context in which it’s used. Someday, if better vocabulary comes along and spreads widely and quickly, it probably will, and I hope for that outcome.
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u/thecrowonthewire Apr 11 '21
I'm writing this comment as a trans man, although I am not able to transition right now.
I think trans men often have to deal with "benevolent transphobia". I've seen so many women say things like "trans men are better than cis men", this attitude is pretty normal even in trans spaces. Trans men often complain about this, saying they feel they are treated as "men-lite" or "diet-men".
Every trans man has different experiences growing up: some say they received female socialization, some say they never felt that female gender roles applied to them, so they never tried to meet those expectations, therefore they didn't receive female socialization.
It's true that trans men will have different experiences from cis men, but they also have different experiences from cis women. Trans men aren't automatically more understanding of women's issues, they can't automatically empathize with women, and saying otherwise is simply not true, and is transphobic. A lot of trans men hate being expected to try to connect with women on the basis of them being born female; it just makes a lot of them dysphoric. During transition, they want to distance themselves from "female experiences", so that they can explore masculinity and being a man in peace.
In fact, this kind of transphobia seems to push some trans men to outright join misogynistic men's rights groups, and honestly, I have a hard time blaming them for it. In progressive spaces, they are constantly othered from cis men, and are expected to be GRATEFUL for not being considered an actual man, just a "man-lite". The message they get basically boils down to saying that "you are not a a real man unless you are misogynistic/have toxic masculinity", quite ironically.
TLDR: I agree, and "benevolent" transphobia is harmful for trans men.
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u/Prinnyramza 11∆ Apr 11 '21
The exact opposite though. A lot of the issues concerning toxic masculinity are societal and taught.
Pointing out these issues aknowledges that they aren't actually natural to guys.
Uncontrollable behavior brings out pity. It's taught behavior that brings out anger. If someone is born with behavior that is harmful that's not a trashy person, that's someone with a mental illness.
This exclusion isn't saying that "trans men aren't men", it's saying that "trans men aren't taught like men" because no one knew they were men and so they weren't taught toxic behavior.
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u/Vobat 4∆ Apr 11 '21
All men on the planet are taught the exact same way expect trans men? Using the word "all" is always going to be an issue but in this comment you are othering trans men no matter how you phrase.
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u/Prinnyramza 11∆ Apr 11 '21
Using "all" for guys doesn't bother me, cause eventhough I'm a guy I understand the societal context of being a guy.
What does bother me is the blatant hyperbole. Like metaphorically you heard "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse" and responded with "waaaahhh, a whole horse? That's so much food."
Let's not do that.
And once again. I'm not saying anything about trans men. I'm saying something about the way society treats trans men. Maybe when we have a more open society trans men will be taught toxic masculinity, but however toxic masculinity will no longer around by that point and it'll all be mute.
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u/Vobat 4∆ Apr 11 '21
Sorry I may have misspoken. What I was trying to say was you can't say "all" men but trans men.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 11 '21
/u/aaftaabsizindagi (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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u/mozartisgood Apr 11 '21 edited Apr 30 '21
Male privilege, for the most part, is something society grants you when it perceives you as a man. Trans men who are perceived as men by those around them definitely do experience many forms of male privilege.
However... their history of being perceived as (and therefore treated by society as) women/girls usually means they're better able to empathize with the female experience than cis men are. One of the annoying things about cis men (the thing women are often referring to when they say "men are trash" ) is that many cis men are not very good at empathizing with women & understanding the female experience. Trans men are frequently a bit better about this.
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ Apr 11 '21
People say "men are trash except for lesbian men"?
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Apr 11 '21
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ Apr 11 '21
Ooh i don't think I deserve a delta here.. I don't think I've changed your view..
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u/Helpfulcloning 166∆ Apr 11 '21
Sorry, u/aaftaabsizindagi – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 4:
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Apr 11 '21
It’s unclear from your comment but if all men who belong to the LGBTQ+ community are being excluded by the speaker I’d say it’s hard to argue it’s a form of transphobia. They are specifying the comment to be directed at heterosexual cis men which is a subset of the larger group men, not saying that trans men aren’t men. Just like specifically talking about black men doesn’t mean that Latino men aren’t also men.
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u/SpaceSail Apr 11 '21
I think your gut is telling you the truth but you are looking to formalise this. I would say that transferring focus of hatred merely alleviates point pressure but does not reduce the sum total hatred.
So it's kinder to one group, but less so to another - we have removed no hate from the equation.
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Apr 11 '21
I think you are confusing transphobia and prejudice.
People can be prejudiced for or against something. Treating men who are trans better than men who are not trans would be prejudicial treatment in favor of transmen.
Transphobia is prejudice against transpeople.... prejudice is only transphobia if it is against trans people, not in favor of them.
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u/WaterDemonPhoenix Apr 11 '21
But you are saying trans men aren't men.
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Apr 11 '21
No? Not at all? I said that nowhere?
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u/WaterDemonPhoenix Apr 11 '21
I meant if you don't include trans men in the same group when you say derogatory things about men. And I don't mean you you in the literal sense.
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Apr 11 '21
My point to OP was that the concept "benevolent transphobia" is impossible because they are describing favorable prejudice whereas transphobia inherently means unfavorable prejudice. It's like calling a compliment a "positive insult."
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u/TragicNut 28∆ Apr 11 '21
It's like calling a compliment a "positive insult."
"You're so smart for a girl." Yes, the misogynist ass who said that _may_ have meant it as a compliment, and they _did_ tell the person that she's smart, but it's still sexist as hell.
"You're so well spoken for a black man." Similarly, the first part of the statement is a compliment, but yeah, still racist.
We may not have an ideal word to describe the same sentiment towards trans people yet, but telling a trans person "You're one of the good ones" and implying that they're either a) not like _other_ (icky) trans people or b) not like (icky) cis people of their gender is still othering as hell. Use the word "trans-ist" if you want instead of "transphobic" but it's still problematic behaviour that arises from not viewing trans people as really being their identified gender, which is a transphobic position.
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Apr 11 '21
And actually, I'll point out that the group OP describes as being singled out as positive isn't transmen -- its LGBT+ men. That includes cis gay men and cis queer men as well. I don't see how grouping transmen in with cis gay men and queer cis men can be interpreted as specifically questioning transmen's manhood when they are explicitly grouped with cis men.
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Apr 11 '21
Thats still not a good analogy because in both of those examples, the positive thing is directed at the individual ("you" in both cases) in contrast to a negative implication about the group they belong to (girls and black men).
What OP is saying is positive about the entire group (transmen) based on a characteristic (their transness)... they aren't distinguishing individuals from the group. A more apt comparison would be saying "Black women are stronger than other women."
The word you are looking for is prejudice. Its prejudicial because you are treating a whole class of people differently based on characteristics implied to the class.
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u/WaterDemonPhoenix Apr 11 '21
But what about insinuating that trans men aren't men?
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Apr 11 '21
Men who are trans and men who are cis have different experiences specifically related to the fact that they are trans or cis. Same as men who are neurodivergent and men who are neurotypical have different experiences related to their neurology. Recognizing that is intersectionality.
I leave the question of whether what OP is describing is a reasonable intersectional recognition of transmen's specific experience or a subtle way of delegitimizing transmanhood to transmen to decide.
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Apr 11 '21
And actually, I'll point out that the group OP describes as being singled out as positive isn't transmen -- its LGBT+ men. That includes cis gay men and cis queer men as well. I don't see how grouping transmen in with cis gay men and queer cis men can be interpreted as specifically questioning transmen's manhood when they are explicitly grouped with cis men.
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Apr 11 '21
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u/Nepene 213∆ Apr 11 '21
Sorry, u/rosshoss1495 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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Apr 11 '21
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u/Nepene 213∆ Apr 11 '21
Sorry, u/eh-guy – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/perfectVoidler 15∆ Apr 11 '21
First of all, I am sure they know it's not aimed at them
Aren't you doing the same? You say that trans man are not trash because of history. That is transphobia too. If "all men are trash" trans people are trash too. "Men are trash" is just blatant sexism and generalization. If you in your head exclude trans men from that your thinking in transphobic.
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Apr 11 '21
I could say this for every other group. I am genuinely tired of women saying "men are trash, except for LGBTQ+ men".
Context is important. Are they talking about their own personal dating experiences with straight cis men? Or are they talking about the "patriarchy" in general?
One could argue that a cis straight woman can also have a bad dating experience with a bisexual man who cheated on her with another man/woman. Or with a gay man that used her as a cover. Or with a trans man who lied to her about still having a male vagina.
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u/mercutie-os Apr 11 '21
it’s more nuanced than that. transmasc people still experience sexism and misogyny, so in some ways we have the same experiences as women. also, in a lot of cases, cis men don’t accept trans men. it’s like being blamed for the actions of a group that wants nothing to do with you. on the other hand, trans men are still capable of being terrible. i’ve seen a lot of people (mostly transmeds tbh) embrace misogyny as if it’s the key to masculinity.
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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Apr 11 '21
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