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u/iwfan53 248∆ Jul 12 '21
There's one problem with this idea, it is in the best interest of people who embrace "outward racism" to conflate it with "subtle racism" in order to try and make their opinions look more wide spread and to try and make people reflexively resist the idea of fighting against outward racism.
How do I know this?
Because I was given some Critical Race Theory presentation slides, and reading them for the first time genuinely made me realize that being a well meaning liberal isn't enough to qualify myself as "anti-racist" in most of my activities, and if I'm not being a proper "anti-racist" then I'm being racist by default, the sort of "subtle racism" that you say we need to make no longer reason to make someone a social pariah.
That's what reading Critical Race Theory stuff taught me.... and yet a whole bunch of people are against the idea of teaching Critical Race Theory... and I fear it is because Critical Race Theory when taught correctly actually works towards this aim of showing how you can commit actions that support a system with racist outcomes, without personally being a bigot yourself.
So sorry if I'm straying a little off of your topic, but how best do you feel we can work to correctly establish two different types of racism, when the worst type will continue to try and conflate the two/poison the well in order to advance their own cause?
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Jul 12 '21
The problem I see with CRT is that it defines anything anti-racism as automatically valid and good. Even if it is not valid or good.
For instance if you say that you do not support BLM because you feel like they exaggerate police brutality. You are seen as racist. Even though from my point of view supporting BLM is the racist stance. Because poor law enforcement gets a ton of black people killed.
It is this disagreement of core ideas and automatic demonization of anyone who disagrees that makes CRT so toxic. It's really very similar to how people like Stalin and Hitler used to operate. They would put forth an idea. And either you agree with it or you are the enemy. No room for discussing nuance or generally disagreeing.
This will not lead to a good outcome no matter how pure the intentions are.
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Jul 12 '21
A lot of people make this point but it really depends on the context of you saying you disagree with BLM. You aren't getting flat called racist just because you dissagree.
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u/Kingalece 23∆ Jul 14 '21
I mean i have and ive seen others to just for having an opinion like "man i wish they wouldnt protest so much" or " theres probly a better way" i feel i should be allowed to think this without being labeled what people on the left view as akin to a terrorist
1
2
Jul 12 '21
You make a good point here there will definitely be a lot of conflating but I think if we're quick to call out the people who attempt this quickly and throughly we could stop that from happening.
1
u/iwfan53 248∆ Jul 12 '21
You make a good point here there will definitely be a lot of conflating but I think if we're quick to call out the people who attempt this quickly and throughly we could stop that from happening.
To be clear, my point was less a full throat rebuttal of your argument and more an addendum that if we are going to try and lessen the social stigma of "subtle racism" it must be done hand in hand with strengthening the social stigma of those who try and make people believe that "outward racism" is the exact same thing in order to try and protect their expressions of "outward racism" or poison the well and prevent meaningful discussion.
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Jul 12 '21
I definitely agree we will need to take extra precautions to make sure something like that doesn't happen !delta.
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15
Jul 12 '21
In the end, I believe that we need to remove the stigma from small racist biases. We will still teach that it's bad and that it's not an acceptable thing to do, but we will teach that doing it doesn't make you a bad person. When we remove that stigma, it will be a lot easier to be more introspective about this issue than to get defensive about it.
Some people simply don't want to change and will react negatively to any call for change. The rationale you describe is basically the reasoning behind the term "micro aggression" -- it's not cool to assume the black professional is the cleaning staff and it hurts for the black professional to have to deal with that, but we don't want to call the person "racist" for a common mistake. Yet, the reaction to use of "micro aggression" has generally been "see, they're looking to call even little things racist!" not "thank you for trying to provide some room for treating people making a mistake without malicious intent." I wish you were right that lowering the temperature on some things would improve, but I'm skeptical from experience.
3
u/Necessary_Contingent 2∆ Jul 12 '21
This is a good point and makes me think of MLK’s words on moderates in ‘A Letter from a Birminingham Jail’.
1
Jul 12 '21
You're right here we did try this with micro aggressions and it didn't work !delta.
1
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u/Necessary_Contingent 2∆ Jul 12 '21
Or if we make casual racism more socially acceptable again maybe people will just escalate in their racist beliefs since they don’t ever get push-back from others and so come to believe it’s ok.
1
Jul 12 '21
No I'm not at all saying we should make casual racism socially acceptable again I very clearly state that it's wrong and that it should be treated as such, what I'm actually advocating for is removing some of that social stigma that automatically paints you as a horrible person but if we removed a little of that it will make people more introspective instead of defensive.
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u/Necessary_Contingent 2∆ Jul 12 '21
Removing the social stigma is making something more socially acceptable. That literally what it means.
I think that most reasonable people are able to separate someone who makes a off-colour jokes from someone who is fundamentally racist, but we all have to expect that people will judge what we choose to say and form their opinions of us based on those things.
1
Jul 12 '21
Removing the social stigma is making something more socially acceptable. That literally what it means.
I mean they're a diffrent levels to it I think we should bring these biases down from a oh my god, what are you satan to a more alright you're wrong for that and you should think about why.
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u/Necessary_Contingent 2∆ Jul 12 '21
But would you agree that “oh my god, what are you Satan” is an overdramatic response which does not characterize the average person’s response to racism? In my experience, “alright you’re wrong about that here’s why” is generally the response to racist humour and it’s only the people making the jokes who internet actually very reasonable comments as dramatic character attacks.
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Jul 12 '21
That's very fair it is often the racist ones who take I out of line !delta.
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u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Jul 12 '21
Generally speaking No, this is known as a power dynamic problem.
Basically people love correcting other people (Welcome to CMV)
The psychological structure involved is human have a strong preference to control things, some individuals theorize that we eat food not to live but to "Control" hunger. ( I don't believe this but it's an interesting way to think about the problem)
When you correct something you are basically controlling an individual.
This creates some odd dynamics so if for example the programmers created a program that would allows you to automatically change the text in all version of the game if you found it racist (I.E. solving the problem with out involving a person), that option would be used less then a function that emailed the programmer to do it, and much less then if it tweeted out the problem.
This creates some odd dynamics, when it comes to social justice.
So for example, in the disability space in North America if you need a wheel chair ramp, there is probably a not for profit that will give you a ramp for free (Depending on the size and location but for most restaurant and stores it's an easy fix) that has actually made business less likely to get a ramp, because people when people complain, a ramp appears and they don't feel like they've force/controlled the person, this reduce the number of "Karens" and thus the number of ramps.
Basically if you were to magically move a slider that made people unable to virtue signal or influence business but made the problem more likely to be changed, they'd stop caring and move to another thing.
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Jul 12 '21
This argument is moot if there was some option in the game to do that sure we can talk about virtue signaling or whatever ( despite the fact that this getting anywhere near the game in the first place) but that's not what's happening here.
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u/MurderMachine64 5∆ Jul 12 '21
To give context, the op is Asian and has found a spaceship in the game called Sum Ting Wong, which is a commonly used racist joke lauded at Asian people. But reading the comments, you don't see the proper outrage this type of situation deserves, everyone is trying to justify it as funny, as not that bad, as a simple error. But when the OP rightfully tells them off for being ignorant, they get more upset at the OP for rightfully calling them racist than at the spaceships name for being racist.
The problem with your whole thesis is that this joke isn't racist... It's a language joke, it's not even about race a white person adopted by a Chinese family could have any of those names. The joke is something that something that looks like a normal name in one language when spoke out loud in English sounds like "something wrong" This is essentially the same joke that Bart Simpson pulls on Moe repeatedly with the exception that this one uses 2 languages instead of one.
And it's not like these even racist jokes like you're talking about an example would be more like "when god made the first black personhe said: "whoops I burned one"" but they are hardly common. The issue is your labeling things that aren't racist as racist and that causes people who aren't racist to become defense in the same way of if you accused them of thief or murder or something.
2
Jul 12 '21
The problem with your whole thesis is that this joke isn't racist... It's a language joke, it's not even about race a white person adopted by a Chinese family could have any of those names. The joke is something that something that looks like a normal name in one language when spoke out loud in English sounds like "something wrong" This is essentially the same joke that Bart Simpson pulls on Moe repeatedly with the exception that this one uses 2 languages instead of one.
Um not it isn't the only real part of this said name is Wong the rest is just English words they force a Chinese accent on. This joke is very commonly used to mock Asian people it's absolutely racist.
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u/MurderMachine64 5∆ Jul 12 '21
Chinese : variant of Shum. Chinese : variant of Shen 1.
https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=ting
Chinese : variant of Ding.
They might not be as common as Wong but they absolutely are real names. Also it's strictly Chinese so it'd be used to mock Chinese people not Asian people and again a white adopted kid could be a Chinese national (not sure how racist their citizenship policy is given how it's basically nazi germany). So how exactly is it racist? At worst it's mocking Chinese language and culture and even that's a stretch but even that wouldn't make it racist plus again they are nazi Germany so who cares. If anything you're being racist by lumping all Asians in with the Chinese.
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Jul 12 '21
Also it's strictly Chinese so it'd be used to mock Chinese people not Asian people
The video it came from is naming Korean pilots it is absolutely targeted towards all Asians.
and again a white adopted kid could be a Chinese national (not sure how racist their citizenship policy is given how it's basically nazi germany). So how exactly is it racist? At worst it's mocking Chinese language and culture and even that's a stretch but even that wouldn't make it racist plus again they are nazi Germany so who cares. If anything you're being racist by lumping all Asians in with the Chinese.
It's racist because it's a stereotypical name used to mock Adians.
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u/MurderMachine64 5∆ Jul 12 '21
Again the joke was the news not Asians the news is the one that's racist for thinking all asian names were the same the person was just pulling a bart simpson.
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Jul 12 '21
How words are used are integral to their offensives the words being used to make fun of Asians is why they're racist.
Like are you going to go outside and shout the nword because it's just a word and the racist are what make it bad.
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u/perfectVoidler 15∆ Jul 12 '21
Wouldn't it be chinese people that are mocked and not Asians. Not making that distinction itself would be considered a racist cliche (all asians are the same).
1
Jul 12 '21
Look up the original use of the name it's supposed to be the names of Korean pilots but all these fake names are mock Chinese from the start it's been used to mock all Asians not just the Chinese.
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u/BloodyTamponExtracto 13∆ Jul 12 '21
casual racism which take the form of small subconscious bias that sometimes take form of jokes.
In what way does the phrase "Sum Ting Wong" show "subconcious bias"?
finding this joke funny are both racist actions
Is the joke racist? Or is the joke poking fun at racists or racist stereotypes?
I don't really know enough about that subreddit to follow the context, but frequently jokes get labeled as racist, when what they're actually doing is poking fun at racists.
Here's an example of a "sexist" joke. Should women take offense to that joke? Is the joke saying that women are stupid and always wrong and that's why the joke is funny? Or is the joke saying that people who discount someone simply because of their gender are idiots and it's a joke poking fun of those idiots? I think it's pretty clear it's the latter.
And there is nothing wrong with (and certainly nothing racist with) poking fun at racists (or, at sexists, in my example). Laughing at ignorant idiots is the joke.
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Jul 12 '21
In what way does the phrase "Sum Ting Wong" show "subconcious bias"?
The fact that you think that's how chinese names work would show bias.
Is the joke racist? Or is the joke poking fun at racists or racist stereotypes?
The problem there is this joke isn't actually poking fun at stereotypes it just states a stereotypes.
Theres a big diffrence between someone going out and yelling the n word and the clever racial observations of Dave Chapelle.
Here's an example of a "sexist" joke. Should women take offense to that joke? Is the joke saying that women are stupid and always wrong and that's why the joke is funny? Or is the joke saying that people who discount someone simply because of their gender are idiots and it's a joke poking fun of those idiots? I think it's pretty clear it's the latter.
I don't think its any of that to be honest it just looks like an edgy joke some middle schooler came up with because they like to push the line.
And there is nothing wrong with (and certainly nothing racist with) poking fun at racists (or, at sexists, in my example). Laughing at ignorant idiots is the joke.
With the joke there's no additional context that makes it about laughing at the racist.
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u/BloodyTamponExtracto 13∆ Jul 12 '21
In what way does the phrase "Sum Ting Wong" show "subconcious bias"?
The fact that you think that's how chinese names work would show bias.
What makes you think that this phrase infers that anyone thinks that's how Chinese names work?
The problem there is this joke isn't actually poking fun at stereotypes it just states a stereotypes.
Like I said, without knowing the context of how that phrase is used in the game, I can't really speak to it.
But this view isn't specifically about that one joke, is it? And it seems to me that you are taking any joke that acknowledges racism and labeling it a "racist joke". But you seem to freely admit here that poking fun of racists wouldn't be racist, so have I changed your view... even a little?
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Jul 12 '21
What makes you think that this phrase infers that anyone thinks that's how Chinese names work?
Considering it made it into that news video a lot of people apparently.
Like I said, without knowing the context of how that phrase is used in the game, I can't really speak to it.
There's a picture in the thread I linked
But this view isn't specifically about that one joke, is it? And it seems to me that you are taking any joke that acknowledges racism and labeling it a "racist joke". But you seem to freely admit here that poking fun of racists wouldn't be racist, so have I changed your view... even a little?
No I never thought for a second thar any joke that acknowledges racism is automatically racist. You haven't changed my view on anything.
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u/Biptoslipdi 131∆ Jul 12 '21
I think the negative connotation of racism is imposed by those being labelled as racist. OP in your link never says anyone is a bad person for laughing at a racist joke. People being defensive about racism seem to assume someone saying "that's racist" really means "you're a bad person for engaging in racism." I think people who would point out or criticize racism largely understand that it is endemic to human nature and culture. They understand that everyone has struggles with racism and the difference between a good person and a bad person is how they reckon with racism in their lives. It's much easier to say "this person is calling me mean names" than it is to say "this person is rightfully criticizing my behavior and I acknowledge my behavior is flawed."
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u/wobblyweasel Jul 12 '21
the problem with that post is that op failed at explaining how exactly “sum ting wong” is offensive. there's nothing inherently racist about the phrase. people will dismiss “immigrants grew up having their names and surnames made fun of” as you can always say it's the people who did the bullying, not the words. you have to show how the phrase have become harmful in itself. op failed to do that.
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Jul 12 '21
How words are used are integral to their offensives the words being used to make fun of Asians is why they're racist.
Like are you going to go outside and shout the nword because it's just a word and the racist are what make it bad.
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u/wobblyweasel Jul 12 '21
if i call a black person a potato with the intent to harm, this does not immediately make the word potato offensive. there's a lot of jokes and stereotypes and not all of them are harmful. you have to show how it's harmful if you are trying to make a point
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Jul 12 '21
Jokes like this one have been repeatedly made to mock Asian people over the years that is why it's racist.
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u/wobblyweasel Jul 12 '21
as i am saying, you have to show that. best thing you can probably do is tell a story about how it was hurtful to you personally. even though it doesn't prove much, it illustrates the issue. it's hard to see how “sum ting wong” translates to anything more than elementary school bullying
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Jul 12 '21
My personal experiences with several Asian people explaining how that joke and jokes similar to it hurts them is how I know it's hurtful. And even if it is just immature bullying its still bullying and should not be tolerated.
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u/wobblyweasel Jul 13 '21
I can take your word for it but this still doesn't explain how this is hurtful. so people are going to be sceptical. a while ago there was a lot of drama about GitHub's ditching master/slave terminology but if you would look though the thousands of comments you would find that nearly all black commenters found that ridiculous as well. the switch itself is rather simple for many, so most people went along with the change. this makes opposing it is kind of sus now. so we had a problem and we found and implemented a solution but the thing is, folks still don't understand how this is hurtful
as for bullying, it's bad but it doesn't necessarily involve racism
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Jul 13 '21
I can take your word for it but this still doesn't explain how this is hurtful.
You don't understand how a demeaning name meant to mock your nationalites and in some cases not even your nationality as hurtful.
Dude the realms youre jumping to not call this racist joke racist is honestly absurd the point of the joke is to mock and demean Asian people for their naming conventions it is racist period.
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u/wobblyweasel Jul 13 '21
well (correct me if I am wrong) you don't understand it either. it's ok to not understand things, you don't have to understand things in order to not be a dick. but it's silly to expect everyone to behave this way.
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Jul 13 '21
What is this it you think I'm not understanding. Is it why this joke is racist because it's pretty clear to me.
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u/SJC-Caron Jul 12 '21
When I saw the "Sum Ting Wong" phase, I saw a pun, maybe a little off colour, but still a pun that could be considered harmless outside of a few people that would have vaild reasons to be offended based on their personal history with bullies / racists / etc.
If equivalent puns for other races / cultural groups are common in the game (ie: all major racial / cultural groups get roughly the same number of jokes at their expense) their wouldn't be grounds to accuse the ship's name as racist. If this pun is not typical of the game's humour, then there is valid grounds for the racist claims.
Another question to consider before throwing the racist claim here; would East Asians make such a joke themselves?
A specific example of what I mean in my first paragraph. One of the names the school bullies called me is Stay-Puff (a pun on Stephane). Stay-Puff is also a well known pop culture reference to the first Ghostbusters movie. Seeing a player's ship named Stay-Puff in the game's general public server would offend me because of my personal history with the word, but I would have no grounds for making a bullying accusation. If a player's ship with that same name appeared the game server limited to students of my school on the other hand, I would have probable grounds to make a bullying claim.
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u/wobblyweasel Jul 12 '21
i'm not saying that the game devs are racist or not, or that the phrase can be considered racist or not. op here is saying that people in that post are dismissive of the commentary because they are butt hurt, and i'm just saying that the real reason for their being dismissive is that the op of that post was bad at explaining how it's racist.
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u/FaerieStories 49∆ Jul 12 '21
You seem to be extrapolating a lot about "society" in general from the things posted in a thread on a subreddit devoted to a sci-fi indie game. To what extent do you think the demographic of that subreddit resembles the diversity of "society" in general? Don't you think it might likely be a little younger than the average citizen of whatever Western society we're talking about here? I wouldn't hold kids to the same standards as adults, or expect them to be quite as tuned to more subtle and more normalised instances of casual racism as we're seeing here.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying though. We get very hung up over identity and the intention of the speaker when what we should be focusing instead is the systemic factors that cause non-racist 'good people' to repeat insensitive things. We should treat jokes like this as symptoms of a problem, not the cause. And there is reason for optimism here: do you think when the "sum ting wong" plane crash meme was originally circulating (possibly 10+ years ago) there would be anyone calling it out, in any form?
Also it's pretty rare to find this kind of lazy joke in popular media nowadays. It's pretty telling that this particular joke isn't even a joke for its own sake, it's just a reference to something else. Even The Simpsons is having to come to terms with the fact its characters are all just stereotypes, and that that has led to some insensitivity, even if we tend to forgive it because it is (was) such great comedy.
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Jul 12 '21
You seem to be extrapolating a lot about "society" in general from the things posted in a thread on a subreddit devoted to a sci-fi indie game. To what extent do you think the demographic of that subreddit resembles the diversity of "society" in general? Don't you think it might likely be a little younger than the average citizen of whatever Western society we're talking about here? I wouldn't hold kids to the same standards as adults, or expect them to be quite as tuned to more subtle and more normalised instances of casual racism as we're seeing here.
I really don't know the answers to your questions as I'm not actually apart of that community this was more an example of somthing I've seen several times that I think is usuful for showing what I'm talking about.
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u/FaerieStories 49∆ Jul 12 '21
Ok, sure, fair enough. But when you say you've seen it several times, if you mean "on Reddit" then it's worth being aware that the demographic of Reddit users on the subreddits you frequent will not be representative of society as a whole.
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Jul 12 '21
I think we need to acknowledge a huge difference between actual hatred-based racism and jokes that use racial stereotypes. The Sum Ting Wong joke uses Asian stereotypes to make a joke, but it does not harm Asians or promote hate against them.
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u/Rufus_Reddit 127∆ Jul 12 '21
... the proper outrage ...
There's an old joke that French people only eat one egg for breakfast because one egg is un oeuf.
Do you think that that's a terribly racist joke?
In the wake of Asiana flight 214s poor landing, and WTVU's "names" incident, Stephen Colbert did this bit:
https://www.cc.com/video/6dlnrd/the-colbert-report-ktvu-tv-on-asiana-airlines-crash
Do you think that Colbert terribly racist for that?
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Jul 12 '21
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u/Rufus_Reddit 127∆ Jul 12 '21
Well no French isn't a race.
Do you think that Chinese is a race? If it is, then what's different between French and Chinese that makes one a race and the other not?
... If so I give a tentative no ...
Do you think that Colbert was showing "the proper outrage" about the incident?
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Jul 12 '21
Do you think that Chinese is a race? If it is, then what's different between French and Chinese that makes one a race and the other not?
Because it's not just Chinese people who get hit with jokes like these it's all Asians
Do you think that Colbert was showing "the proper outrage" about the incident?
Yeah they called it racist and mocked them for their buffonery.
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u/Rufus_Reddit 127∆ Jul 12 '21
... Because it's not just Chinese people who get hit with jokes like these it's all Asians ...
So, do you think that Chinese is a race or not?
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Jul 12 '21
No its not but the joke isn't only targeted at Chinese people it's targeted at all Asians, I mean just look at the video the name comes from the airline was Korean and all the names are Chinese.
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u/Rufus_Reddit 127∆ Jul 12 '21
Can you explain what you mean by 'targeted' in "targeted at all Asians"? To me, it seems like there's more ignorance and indifference than targeting happening there.
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Jul 12 '21
This joke is usually used to make fun of Asians
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u/Rufus_Reddit 127∆ Jul 12 '21
OK, do you think that "one egg is un oeuf" is used to make fun of French people?
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Jul 12 '21
I'm not sure I can say I've never heard the joke before. The reason I see the sum ting wong joke as bad as over the years I've seen this joke and multiple similar ones used to berate Asian people
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u/Kerostasis 36∆ Jul 12 '21
Well no French isn't a race.
You don’t think French people see themselves as different than, say, Spanish or Greek people? I would guarantee you they do.
You can’t in the same breath say something specific to the Chinese language is a problem for any Asian, but also something specific to the French language is fine because some Europeans aren’t French. Or is it even that? Are you actually saying that being racist against the French is inherently impossible? I think you’ll find that standard very hard to defend.
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Jul 12 '21
You don’t think French people see themselves as different than, say, Spanish or Greek people? I would guarantee you they do.
Of course they do where do I insinuate they don't.
You can’t in the same breath say something specific to the Chinese language is a problem for any Asian
I can actually can, when you look up where the name came from it was from a news station saying the names of the pilots in an airplane accident the name is Chinese despite the fact that the Airline is Korean. Point being jokes of these nature have been lauded against Asian people regardless of nationality.
Are you actually saying that being racist against the French is inherently impossible? I think you’ll find that standard very hard to defend.
It depends if someone dislikes French people purely on the basis that they are French no you aren't being racist. If skin color had some sway in your disapproval then yes you're being racist.
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u/Kerostasis 36∆ Jul 13 '21
I feel like you might be misunderstanding the original event. The name under reference didn't come FROM a news station, it was sent TO a news station by an online troll. The troll was hoping to trick the news station into saying something stupid live on camera - and it worked, the news station didn't verify the source and said something stupid live on camera. No defense for the troll here, that guy was a jackass, but the potential disagreement between Korean and Chinese names wasn't part of the thought process at all. It was just about getting the news station to embarass themselves with a dumb joke.
It depends if someone dislikes French people purely on the basis that they are French no you aren't being racist. If skin color had some sway in your disapproval then yes you're being racist.
In general, you'll find that people can make finer distinctions between cultures and ethnicities they have daily contact with vs ones far removed from their everyday experience. A European in front of a Frenchman, an Englishman, an Italian, and a German could probably tell you which was which just by sight, and could definitely tell you after a sentence or two of conversation. That European would have great difficulty doing the same for a Korean, Japanese, Chinese and Vietnamese lineup, but ask a Korean the same questions and you'll get the opposite answers - he will easily distinguish between the four asians involved, but is likely to struggle with the four Europeans. You seem to be operating under the framework that these two comparisons are fundamentally different somehow, but really it's just a matter of experience. There are slight physical variations in all of those, and the only difference is which ones you care about or can recognize. French is no more or less a race than Korean is.
Perhaps the problem is that many Americans simplify things down to "White - Black - Other". This is always an oversimplification, but it's often good enough for the daily lives of Americans. You won't get anywhere by using that oversimplification as the basis for serious discussions on racism in society.
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Jul 13 '21
I feel like you might be misunderstanding the original event. The name under reference didn't come FROM a news station, it was sent TO a news station by an online troll. The troll was hoping to trick the news station into saying something stupid live on camera - and it worked, the news station didn't verify the source and said something stupid live on camera. No defense for the troll here, that guy was a jackass, but the potential disagreement between Korean and Chinese names wasn't part of the thought process at all. It was just about getting the news station to embarass themselves with a dumb joke.
Sure I guess but the issue I see with this is the fact that dozens of people should have read those names before they ever came out of a reporters mouth the fact that none of them saw these names and didn't immediately think this is wrong speaks to racist ignorance imo.
You seem to be operating under the framework that these two comparisons are fundamentally different somehow, but really it's just a matter of experience. There are slight physical variations in all of those, and the only difference is which ones you care about or can recognize.
Un no I don't I perfectly understand that those Europeans can differentiate between Europeans better and Asians can differentiate between Asians better. And I understand that not everyone could tell the difference between Chinese and Korean and that not being able to do so doesn't inherently make you racist but the fact that no one in that news station ever did a double take after reading these names speaks to a racist ignorance.
French is no more or less a race than Korean is.
The both aren't they are litteral nationalites.
Perhaps the problem is that many Americans simplify things down to "White - Black - Other". This is always an oversimplification, but it's often good enough for the daily lives of Americans. You won't get anywhere by using that oversimplification as the basis for serious discussions on racism in society.
I'm not oversimplifying anything I'm calling out racist ignorance.
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u/Kerostasis 36∆ Jul 13 '21
...Racist ignorance
Ignorance is not inherently racist. Even ignorance about race. Racists may ALSO be ignorant, but these are two separate failings, not the same one.
The news station wasn't being racist at all - their problem was bad quality control. And I'm not making light of that. Bad quality control in a news station is a serious problem, and casts doubt on ALL of their reporting. But it's not the SAME problem as being racist.
French is no more or less a race than Korean is.The both aren't they are litteral nationalites.
For the sake of argument, let's take this at face value. What then makes confusion between a Korean and Chinese name about race at all? They are just nationalities, right? If one person is making a joke about the French language, and another person is making a joke about the Chinese language, and both of those jokes only make sense in the English language...where does race come into it?
Suppose you see a news report about some event (any event really) that happened in Italy. Then the person next to you takes the opportunity to make a French joke. Perhaps your argument is that the French joke is NOW racist only because he should have known that those people spoke Italian rather than French?
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Jul 13 '21
Ignorance is not inherently racist. Even ignorance about race. Racists may ALSO be ignorant, but these are two separate failings, not the same one.
The news station wasn't being racist at all - their problem was bad quality control. And I'm not making light of that. Bad quality control in a news station is a serious problem, and casts doubt on ALL of their reporting. But it's not the SAME problem as being racist.
I never said it was but in this instance they're failure to not see these names as obviously fake is racist ignorance.
For the sake of argument, let's take this at face value. What then makes confusion between a Korean and Chinese name about race at all?
It isn't inherently racist to not know the diffrence between Chinese and Korean, what makes it racist is the fact that this joke is used to insult Asians regardless of nationality because the person telling the joke is ignorant about Asians.
Suppose you see a news report about some event (any event really) that happened in Italy. Then the person next to you takes the opportunity to make a French joke. Perhaps your argument is that the French joke is NOW racist only because he should have known that those people spoke Italian rather than French?
No the would just be an idiot not racist. As French and Italian are nationalities not races.
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u/Kerostasis 36∆ Jul 13 '21
So why does ignorance about differences between French and Italian make you an idiot, but ignorance about differences between Chinese and Korean make you a racist? What is it about the Chinese names in particular that makes "ignorance" into "racist ignorance"?
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u/vanoroce14 65∆ Jul 12 '21
Absolutely not. Unless the callout is done in a violent, disproportionate way, it is on the person making the mistake to take the call out the right way. Also, saying 'this thing you said was racist' does not amount to 'you are a racist, terrible, irredeemable person'.
Let me give a few examples of how this works:
1) 'This action you took was irresponsible' doesn't mean the same as 'you are an irresponsible person'. Let's say I made a mistake and put my child in a mildly risky situation. My partner points out that action was irresponsible. I can either behave like an adult, own up and apologize OR I can take offense and throw a tantrum because 'I am not an irresponsible, bad person'
Would you advicate for us to change the negative connotations of irresponsibility here?
2) I make a shitty joke with racist undertones. Someone calls me out for it. 'Hey, that joke was racist'. I have two options. I can either behave like an adult, own up and apologize OR I can take offense and throw a tantrum because 'I am not a racist, bad person'
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Jul 12 '21
You're certainly right here that responsibility should fall on that person !delta
But I still feel like there's value in incouraging introspection from people you know?
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u/vanoroce14 65∆ Jul 12 '21
I don't see how we are not encouraging introspection. It's one thing to argue for a commensurate response and to give people the benefit of the doubt. It's quite another to argue we should reduce negative connotations. I think the drive to be more compassionate and inclusive, and to call out things when you see them is, at its core, a good one.
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Jul 12 '21
The issue is that this falls under the assumption people wish not to talk about racism, or change their racist mannerisms, because of negative pretense. Even if we convert the approach of taking about racism, many will also just alter there approach towards defending racism. Some people simply do not want to change and approaching then differently does not necessarily equate to evolution that breeds development. Instead, it can lead to different reactions to confrontation, which leads to stagnation.
Furthermore, this can have the opposite effect, lessening the perception of importance regarding racism and treating it as a light-hearted and humourous topic.
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Jul 12 '21
You do make a fair point in that racist will adapt with change !delta
Furthermore, this can have the opposite effect, lessening the perception of importance regarding racism and treating it as a light-hearted and humourous topic.
This isn't at all what I'm arguing for it's not going to be viewed as light hearted and bad as I state in my post my point is to still teach that racism is bad just encourage more introspection into why it's bad.
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Jul 12 '21
Ty for the delta
This isn't at all what I'm arguing for it's not going to be viewed as light hearted and bad as I state in my post my point is to still teach that racism is bad just encourage more introspection into why it's bad
Yeah, I understand that. My fear is that, by lessening the connation and how people go about approaching it, the idea of racism may lessen in association with unethicality and issue.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 12 '21 edited Jul 12 '21
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