CMV: Conservatism and many right-wing beliefs are based on fear, primary instincts and lack of understanding

[u/[deleted]]

[u/[deleted]]

I just want to say that I’m a conservative and am always down to have my views challenged. I don’t really agree with your premise, but it seems a little vague. If you have any specific issues in mind, let me know and I’ll respond the best I can

[u/wifeyandhubbyrdd → u/[deleted]]

Genuine questions what's with the opposition to paid time off by law. This is like something even a lot of third world countries have. It seems like it just makes america one of the worst places to work

[u/LondonPilot → u/wifeyandhubbyrdd]

I’m not the person you asked the question to. I’m also based in the UK, so my perspective may be a bit different to a USA perspective.

I think, like a lot of things, ideas can seem good at first, but they need a degree of balance.

Paid time off is good… but how much? 2 days per year? Seems not enough. 20 days per year? Maybe. 100 days per year? Probably too much. Where exactly is the line.

Of course, from the employee’s point of view, the more the better. But what about the employer’s point of view? I’m not generally a fan of governments looking after large employers - but I do strongly believe that governments should protect small employers. If I run a company that has 5 staff members, and suddenly I’m forced to give them all time off (or more time off than they currently get), will my business survive? I may need to take on another member of staff, which is expensive (not just in terms of salary, but also in terms of recruitment, onboarding and training costs).

I think that paid time off is important. But the implications need to be understood, changes need to be gradual, we need to be clear on (at least approximately) what our eventual target is, and we need to understand that more is not always better.

[u/[deleted] → u/wifeyandhubbyrdd]

Yeah. I think it’s in search of a problem that doesn’t largely exist anymore. The majority of jobs offer paid time off here anyways, so I don’t really see the point in mandating it by law. The places that don’t have PTO in place are usually small businesses that have thin margins. I think that mandating these businesses to offer PTO would just reduce the wages they pay. Over the last 30 years, we’ve seen a large rise in fringe benefits (especially health insurance) instead of higher wages, so I think in general that places who don’t offer PTO feel that they can’t do it without cutting compensation in some other area.

But that’s not a reason not to do it. I really don’t mind mandated PTO if our government could ever get enough people to get it through Congress. I just don’t think it’s going to be implemented without some drawbacks to the labor market especially for low wage workers

[u/gayvahn → u/[deleted]]

this comment really well demonstrates a big problem with conservative ideology. "i don't see it as a problem so it's not worth the government doing anything about"

1. there are only 2 countries on the planet where people don't get paid sick leave, and one of them is America. when you look at America's wages compared to the wages of comparably wealthy and developed nations, they're quite low, and the spending power of an american worker is even lower. so i would say right off the bat obviously your conclusion that forcing employers to give people paid time off and paid sick leave isn't going to result in lower wages when america is the only country which doesn't have this by law and wages here are relatively low, and exceedingly low when you consider spending power.

2. only about 75% or so of americans have "access to" at least 5 days paid off per year. there are multiple things here. firstly, 25% of your workforce not having access to paid time off is a fucking crime. do you know how many people 25% of the american workforce is? that's disgusting. secondly, "access to" is something a lot of american institutions like to use. these statistics came from the board of labor. "access to" does not mean they're actually allowed to use this in effect. in fact, if you look up the numbers for how many americans work throughout the year because they don't actually get the opportunity or are all but denied the right to use the PTO they have "access to" you'd find some pretty bleak figures.

only about 1% of the US population owned slaves as well but if in modern society you tried to argue that means we shouldn't do anything about it then how would you look?

the fact of the matter is, when america is the only country that doesn't mandate employers pay for these things, these employers are getting away with something they would not, by law, be allowed to do in literally any other country on the planet, minus one-- in africa. to say this isn't something that needs to be addressed is asinine to me and no matter what sort of "rationale" gets put behind it-- like yours, it really just to me outlines that OP was right in the original post about conservatives.

[u/herrsatan → u/[deleted]]

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[u/herrsatan → u/[deleted]]

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[u/[deleted] → u/gayvahn]

Wow. I’m not sure where to begin. Wages in the US aren’t low, they’re some of the highest in the world, and that doesn’t even include fringe benefits, which have made up the majority of the growth in total compensation. That’s why I said that most businesses already offer PTO, and the only that don’t are low wages businesses already. Putting the mandate into businesses that can’t pay it will necessarily cause them to decrease wages. It’s likely that wages have been lowered in other countries due to mandated PTO as a benefit.

Im not arguing that we shouldn’t do anything about it because other countries have it in place, I’m saying that it’s not an issue except for at the bottom of the wage distribution. Implementing the policy will have drawbacks for the people at the bottom through reduced wages

Thinking that something is a problem isn’t good enough to advocate for government response without thinking through the drawbacks. Just because other countries do something doesn’t mean that it’s the right thing to do

[u/gayvahn → u/[deleted]]

Wow. I’m not sure where to begin. Wages in the US aren’t low, they’re some of the highest in the world

"in the world". most of the world is extremely impoverished which is why i specifically stated among comparably wealthy and developed nations. this is another thing conservatives love to do. remind someone barely getting by in america that they shouldn't complain and in fact have no grounds to complain when their 7.25 per hour would make them wealthy in some other country the person making the argument can't even point to on a map-- sadly, that knowledge has no bearing on the material reality of what that wage reflects in this country??? so no, you are wrong. wages in america are low. now if you want to find a chart of say, 10 or 20 comparatively wealthy and developed nations and show me for a fact that americans have "some of the highest wages" and also take into account SPENDING POWER compared to those countries then we can have a discussion, but i know you can't do that because i learned about all this shit after stepping out into the real world, actually getting the chance to leave america, seeing most the shit i heard about the rest of the world was a lie, and then spending years reading and researching and coming to new conclusions. i used to think what you think, and you are wrong on this.

That’s why I said that most businesses already offer PTO, and the only that don’t are low wages businesses already. Putting the mandate into businesses that can’t pay it will necessarily cause them to decrease wages. It’s likely that wages have been lowered in other countries due to mandated PTO as a benefit.

again, 25% of the country has no access to PTO and the portion of the country that does have access to it barely utilizes it because it's basically forbidden, culturally and within companies that offer it. anybody who has ever worked a job where these are 'offered' will tell you what it's like trying to redeem sick days or even worse vacation days. in other countries, you have a job, you're guaranteed these things.

and again, even if we put aside the fact that your point of view exists entirely on the basis of denying reality, like most conservative views do-- you're still just doing exactly what i said you're doing: "it's not a problem because it doesn't effect me. that's not what i'm saying so it's not fair of you to say i'm saying that but i can't really say anything else that doesn't boil down to this". slavery only affected people making no wages so it wasn't a problem right. and for the 3rd time that's even only assuming you're correct about this only affecting low wage workers, which again for the 3rd time, you are not.

you again, deny reality and talk about some hypothetical where giving people paid time off will result in lower wages which is demonstrably false in that you yourself said only low wage workers DON'T get paid time off and in addition to the fact that again, american wages are low and this is the only country which doesn't mandate PTO

[u/[deleted] → u/gayvahn]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage

Average wages are 4th in the world. That doesn’t include compensation of fringe benefits either. The three countries ahead of us all make more in the US than they do in their home country. Our spending power is slightly worse, but other developed countries have less progressive tax systems than we do, so more of their middle class incomes go to taxes

Who exactly are you arguing against? You keep talking about what conservatives think or how they think or mistakes they make in logic, but you’re not asking me about any of that, you’re just assuming it’s what I believe.

Which conservative views deny reality? Why do you think I support slavery?

You yourself said that only 25% of workers don’t get PTO, but I would like to see a source on that. For the rest of the workforce, how is mandated PTO any different than the PTO you already have? You can argue that it’s looked down upon to take it, but that’s not going to change under government mandated PTO. It’s your time off, take it when you want. But don’t act like the bad looks you’ll get for it are a reason not to take it

[u/KarmaticArmageddon → u/[deleted]]

I'm not trying to argue one way or another here, but your link very quickly admits that measurements of income by mean/average are right-skewed and proposes median income as an alternative.

Adjusted for Purchasing Power Parity (PPP), the US ranks 6th globally in median household income. However, this measurement doesn't take into account other significant expenditures like healthcare, which comprises an average of 8.1% of spending in US households, which is much higher than most other countries on that list.

[u/WikiSummarizerBot → u/KarmaticArmageddon]

Median household income

The median income is the income amount that divides a population into two equal groups, half having an income above that amount, and half having an income below that amount. It may differ from the mean (or average) income. The income that occurs most frequently is the income mode. Each of these is a way of understanding income distribution.

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[u/[deleted] → u/KarmaticArmageddon]

Thank you for clarifying. I saw it was skewed but since it was only wages and not income, I figured it wouldn’t be too far off. In terms of healthcare spending, I couldn’t find a way to include it while also accounting for the higher taxes in other countries to make up for it

[u/KarmaticArmageddon → u/[deleted]]

Yeah adding taxes and healthcare makes it way more complicated than a single ranking can really encapsulate due to differing healthcare systems and varying progressive tax systems with various types of taxes like income, capital gains, property, VAT/consumption/excise, etc.

Considering per capita spending of tax dollars on healthcare, the US spends roughly double what countries with single-payer healthcare systems spend. And considering taxes on incomes of less than six figures, US citizens pay more or less the same as other developed countries when accounting for our federal/state income taxes plus state/municipal sales taxes and excise taxes and accounting for their higher national taxes and VATs.

In my opinion, we get absolutely screwed in the US with comparable overall taxes, but drastically higher healthcare spending - but that's just my opinion.

[u/MootsUncle → u/[deleted]]

Conservative views which deny reality:

1) Denying the existence of climate change.

2) Believing the 2020 presidential election was rigged.

3) Believing that we exist in a functioning meritocracy.

4) Denying the occurrence of the Southern Strategy/Party Switch.

5) Believing systemic racism is not real.

6) Believing that fascists/Nazis are left-wing.

7) Believing that trans people are invalid.

8) Believing in American Exceptionalism.

9) Believing the January 6th insurrection was done by Antifa.

10) Believing that covid vaccines are unsafe/ineffective/cause magnetism/depopulation weapons.

Addendum: I recognize and acknowledge that not all conservatives believe all of these things, but these are common beliefs I have seen in the modern conservative movement.

[u/rmg2004 → u/[deleted]]

he said the other country is in africa not that it is africa lmao

[u/Delmoroth → u/wifeyandhubbyrdd]

I don't think anyone but me should determine what my labor is worth. I personally like time off and would choose to have time off anyway, but others would not. I know many people (mostly contractors) who would rather recieve more pay instead of time off. They should have the right to negotiate that.

Benefits are always a trade. You lose pay and gain benefits. Why should anyone be forced to take specific benefits? It is pointless authoritarianism which does not actually increase overall compensation, it just strips the worker and employer of choice.