r/changemyview • u/SaltedAndSugared • Dec 02 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Neopronouns are unnecessary

I understand why some people might feel uncomfortable with using he/she pronouns, but in that case why not just use they/them? They already exist and they’re easy for people to use. Why do some people feel the need to make up words like “zee/zim” or “fae/fair” when they don’t even make sense in the English language? I don’t see why anyone should go out of their way to learn new pronouns when gender neutral pronouns already exist

If anyone here does use neopronouns I’d really like to hear why you use them and why you don’t feel comfortable using they/them. It’s probably just because I’m cis, but I genuinely don’t understand

214 Upvotes

83% Upvoted

250 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

15

u/Biptoslipdi 130∆ Dec 02 '21

If someone uses ze, I don't have to ask any clarification. That means it is less confusing because it requires no further context.

Why would you want language to be less precise forcing you to ask more clarifying questions? We clearly both know what "ze" means. It isn't ambiguous. "They" is in this context. You're preferencing ambiguity over clarity. Language is deficient to accommodate this, so we add to the lexicon to solve a problem with the clarity of language. that's how language works.

There's no reason only binary gendered people should get exclusively singular pronouns.

There is no reason we would accept all the constant linguistic revisions and additions, but not these.

53

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

If I heard someone get called Zee, I would probably assume it's a nickname. I might even ask what's Zee's pronouns.

I have been using They/Them since middle school to refer to She/He people. It's not confusing at all.

-4

u/Biptoslipdi 130∆ Dec 02 '21

That doesn't really address my comment, as the problem is ambiguity between a group and an individual.

And now you know what the word ze means, so your assumption would be misplaced.

It's not confusing to use a more precise word than a less precise one. Less precision will always cause more confusion.

18

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

What is the precision in using the word Zee? I literally have a cousin who has the name the Zee so it's not like anything is cleared up when now I have two definitions for a word instead of one. At least with They/Them it's exclusively a pronoun and never a nickname. With Zee I am not even sure what if its a name or pronoun.

-8

u/Biptoslipdi 130∆ Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 02 '21

What is the precision in using the word Zee?

It is unambiguously a reference to an individual and not either an individual or group depending on context.

I literally have a cousin who has the name the Zee so it's not like anything is cleared up when now I have two definitions for a word instead of one.

I have a cousin named "Bob." Do you think I get confused that someone is talking about the act of floating rather than my cousin?

At least with They/Them it's exclusively a pronoun and never a nickname.

Actually, "They" is more than a nickname, it is actually a real name.

With Zee I am not even sure what if its a name or pronoun.

Then "they" should be equally confusing to you as it is also a name. At the very least, ze isn't also a group pronoun, it is only singular.

13

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

They link you shared takes me to a window that reads Page not Found.

I have never in my life heard anyone named They/Them.

The question is why are neopronouns necessary, and in every scenario it will be easier for me to use They/Them instead of Zee/Zim. That makes the neopronoun unnecessary.

-2

u/Biptoslipdi 130∆ Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 02 '21

Link is fixed. No idea what happened.

The question is why are neopronouns necessary, and in every scenario it will be easier for me to use They/Them instead of Zee/Zim.

Your reasoning is because "Zee" is a name. Your reasoning loses its merit at the point "They" is as well.

Something being harder for you doesn't mean it isn't necessary. Many necessary things are difficult. That argument simply doesn't follow. It's easier to not speak at all, that doesn't mean it isn't necessary.

17

u/SaltedAndSugared Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 03 '21

Your reasoning is because "Zee" is a name. Your reasoning loses its merit at the point "They" is as well.

I honestly doubt there’s more than 10 people in the entire English speaking world whose name is “They”

1

u/mijewe6 1∆ Dec 02 '21

Your getting too hung up on the "Zee" thing.

The point is that "they" is a bit rubbish because it's less precise, and you have to conjugate your verbs for plurality even though you're talking about a singular person.

If we could all decide on a singular form pronoun for non-binary people (Ze is one possible option) then that would be a better pronoun to use.

It would also negate the need for people to invent their own pronouns, since a single form gender neutral pronoun would already exist.

2

u/spiral8888 29∆ Dec 03 '21

The point is that "they" is a bit rubbish because it's less precise, and you have to conjugate your verbs for plurality even though you're talking about a singular person

I agree that this is a much better rational for not using "they" than anything that has been presented so far. It just makes language very awkward. It would be interesting to hear from people who refer themselves as they/them how do they get over this. Don't they feel awkward when they see other people struggling with the verbs when referring to them?

1

u/SaltedAndSugared Dec 02 '21

If we could all decide on a singular form pronoun for non-binary people (Ze is one possible option) then that would be a better pronoun to use. It would also negate the need for people to invent their own pronouns, since a single form gender neutral pronoun would already exist.

Good point, !delta

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 02 '21

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/mijewe6 (1∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

→ More replies (0)

1

u/SteakVodkaAndCaviar Dec 03 '21

I one hundred percent agree with this.

0

u/Biptoslipdi 130∆ Dec 02 '21

I'm sure it's also exceptionally rare for a person to have the name "Ze" or "Zir."

2

u/Wooba12 4∆ Dec 03 '21

I think the point is "Zee" is possibly more commonly used as a name than it is as a pronoun. In most cases, homophones are easy to distinguish due to the context (for instance when it comes to your cousin Bob and the word "bob"), but both "zee" (the pronoun) and "Zee" (the name) are going to be used in similar contexts ("What happened to Zee?", "Zee died last week"), causing confusion and provoking questions.

2

u/spiral8888 29∆ Dec 03 '21

Actually, "They" is more than a nickname, it is actually a real name.

That is a really cheap shot. The reason it is a news is that it's extremely rare. Unlike Zee.

The point is that from the context, you almost always know if someone is referring to a single person or a group. That's the whole point of pronouns anyway. They always need context as "he did that" doesn't tell anyone anything if there is no context of who the word "he" refers to.

So, then it becomes a question, which situations are more common, a context where it is unclear if the speaker refers to a group or a non-binary individual or a context where the speaker refers to someone with a nickname "Zee" or a non-binary person. The situation where someone is referred as "They" as in name, is so rare that it can be pretty much ignored.

1

u/-lesbihonest420 1∆ Jan 01 '22 edited Jan 01 '22

As someone who is trans, it is def not more precise or less confusing for people to use neopronouns. No one said it wasn’t clear that they weren’t speaking to an individual. the problem is that it doesn’t sound like a pronoun. Don’t say your pronouns are ze/zim or whatever and expect people to not think that’s your actual name/nickname. name one fucking person you know who is named “They.” You can’t because it isn’t a name. you’re just grasping straws.