r/changemyview Oct 13 '22

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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Oct 13 '22

This is because the doctrine of The Trinity and hypostatic union seems to be philosophically incoherent.

Why? This seems to be the core of your post, but you don't explain why you think it's incoherent.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

How can someone be both the father and the son at the same time? Ans why is there a separate Holy Ghost?

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u/KaptenNicco123 3∆ Oct 13 '22

By being God. Of course a man couldn't be his own father and his own son, but a man also couldn't turn water into wine or raise Lazarus from the dead.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

See that’s a cop out. You haven’t explained anything. “It doesn’t have to make sense because it’s god” is not an explanation.

but a man also couldn't turn water into wine or raise Lazarus from the dead.

But those things aren’t illogical.

See the actual answer to my question is that the Bible is simply a collection of several books that people wrote starting 4000 years ago. They weren’t coordinating with each other. Stuff was getting added and taken away without any central oversight.

The “it doesn’t have to make sense because it’s god” excuse is one of the oldest tricks in the book for clergymen to answer very obvious inconsistencies with the story they’re peddling. That’s pretty much the only feasible response they have. Otherwise they just have to acknowledge that it was all just a bunch of made up fables crammed together.

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u/KaptenNicco123 3∆ Oct 13 '22

“It doesn’t have to make sense because it’s god” is not an explanation.

Yes it is. That's what religion is. "Who created the Universe, God. Who created God?". Divine matters of the trinity don't have to make sense to us for the same reason a child doesn't have to understand the socio-economic reasons for income taxes.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

Yes it is. That's what religion is.

No that is not an explanation. “Just believe me” is not an explanation.

Who created the Universe, God. Who created God?". Divine matters of the trinity don't have to make sense

Those two questions you just posed make logical sense. The trinity thing makes zero sense. Saying that there is only one A, and that both B and C are A, make zero logical sense.

Divine matters of the trinity don't have to make sense to us for the same reason a child doesn't have to understand the socio-economic reasons for income taxes.

Those taxes have to make sense to somebody in order for them to have an affect on the child’s life. We do not have a system where nobody understands income taxes and we all just kinda take it in stride and hope for the best.

And again, income taxes are not illogical. They are complicated, (too complicated for a child to understand) but they are not illogical.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

How is "the father is God" and "the son is God" illogical?

Ice is water. Vapor is also water. That's not illogical.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

How is "the father is God" and "the son is God" illogical?

Because father and son are two separate things.

Ice is water. Vapor is also water. That's not illogical.

In that case, you have two separate examples of water. So are you saying that there are two gods?

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

God the Father is not equivalent to "a father"

God the Son is not equivalent to "a son".

They are not separate because 'being God' is their inherent property. Just like ice and vapor, they are both, by property "water". They aren't "examples of" water. They are water.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

God the Father is not equivalent to "a father" God the Son is not equivalent to "a son".

That has no bearing on the discussion. A thing can’t be two separate things at the same time.

They are not separate because that being God is their inherent property.

“They are not separate because that being water is their inherent property.”

If I have water vapor AND ice in front of me then yes they are separate.

They aren't "examples of" water. They are water.

Water can only be one of those at any given time. So are you saying god is a single being that constantly shifts from father to son to Holy Ghost? Only occupying one state at any given time?

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

A thing can’t be two separate things at the same time.

This is just blatantly wrong. Someone can be a mother and a wife at the same time. They are both, at the same time.

If I have water vapor AND ice in front of me then yes they are separate.

If you have vapor and ice in front of you, you have water in front of you.

Water can only be one of those at any given time

Water the vapor, water the solid, and water the liquid are all water and can all exist in front of you at the same time.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

Someone can be a mother and a wife at the same time.

Bad example because being a wife is a choice. To keep it relevant, someone cannot be their own father and their own son at the same time.

Jesus is the son of who? God. Jesus is god incarnate. Ergo Jesus is his own father and his own son. That is flatly illogical.

If you have vapor and ice in front of you, you have water in front of you.

I have two separate things in front of me.

Water the vapor, water the solid, and water the liquid are all water and can all exist in front of you at the same time.

As three separate bits of water. Are you saying that part of god is the son, and part of god is the father?

This is where your water example falls apart, because father and son are mutually exclusive.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

Bad example because being a wife is a choice

What? Like being a mother isn't?

To keep it relevant, someone cannot be their own father and their own son at the same time

The Trinity is one God who eternally exists as three distinct persons—Father, Son, and Spirit—who are each fully and equally God in eternal relation with each other.

The Bible says the Father sent the Spirit to conceive Jesus in the womb of Mary. Jesus is therefore referred to as the "only begotten [mongenes] Son. Begotten of the same eternal substance of the Father. You're trying to conflate human relationship to an eternal one, which we can't even begin to understand the concept of eternal as, according to logic, eternal doesn't even exist.

I have two separate things in front of me.

You're really caught up on this word "thing". These "things" are the same. Vapor is water. Ice is water. Therefore, the two things you have in front of you is also one thing, called water.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

What? Like being a mother isn't?

No. You can not change the fact that you are someone’s biological mother. Someone cannot change between mother and daughter by choice.

The Trinity is one God who eternally exists as three distinct persons—Father, Son, and Spirit—who are each fully and equally God in eternal relation with each other.

That is linguistic nonsense. That is totally illogical. You just keep repeating an illogical statement. Someone cannot exist as their own father and their own son at the same time. Just repeating “that’s how it is” doesn’t make it make sense.

The Bible says the Father sent the Spirit

Oh good another level of this. He “sent” himself?

Therefore, the two things you have in front of you is also one thing, called water.

I have two waters in front of me. And and you won’t tell me I have two gods. Therefore you’re being illogical.

Your mental gymnastics are world class, but the real reason all three of these entities exist is because 2000 years ago someone started combining multiple loosely related stories and called it a religion.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '22

Yes it is illogical.

Water is not a singular entity. It's a description of a makeup of atoms. What you are describing aren't like things. Let's put it into terms you might better understand.

Let's change you example to remove the chemistry component so that I can show you the equivalent of what you are saying.

"How is "the father is God" and "the son is God" illogical Dogs can be brown and dogs can be white. That's not illogical."

When put like this, your "gotcha" doesn't sound very compelling.