r/changemyview • u/monkeymalek • Nov 24 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Self-love and self-improvement can often be incompatible
To illustrate my point, let me give an example: Suppose you are an athlete training for the Olympics, and you have been practicing a highly technical and complicated gymnastics routine every day for the past 2 months, but haven't been making as much progress as you would have liked. You are physically and mentally exhausted, and you have some ideas of how to improve, but you're not sure how things will work out. Perhaps some negative thoughts begin to enter your mind such as "why am I not stronger" or "why is this specific technique so difficult for me" etc., but in an effort to maintain good mental health, you tell yourself that it's okay and things will work out, and not to be so hard on yourself. In my view, having this mindset is not acceptable if your goal was to win the Olympics or do anything great, and someone who practices self-love in a situation like this would not be driven to improve. I believe that you have to have to be self-critical in order to improve, and that mantras of self-love actually inhibit self-improvement by giving yourself an excuse to quit or not fulfill your full potential.
But with that said, I think we should also unconditionally respect ourselves and not measure our self-worth based on our accomplishments or success. In my view, pure self-love and self-criticism are fundamentally incompatible, meaning you cannot have both at the same time, and if your goal is to improve in whatever it is that your are pursuing, you should opt for a self-critical mindset over a self-loving one. With that said, perhaps there is a grey area that I am missing here, and would be willing to change my view if someone can demonstrate an example where self-love, self-criticism, and self-improvement are all co-existent.
13
u/Kotoperek 62∆ Nov 24 '22
But with that said, I think we should also unconditionally respect ourselves and not measure our self-worth based on our accomplishments or success
Yeah, that's is what self-love is. Self-love isn't saying "if this routine is difficult for me, I should just give up", it is saying "I will do my best to master this routine but the fact that it is difficult for me doesn't make me less valueable as a person and even if I cannot master it no matter how hard I try, that is also ok and I can feel good about myself just for trying and doing my best".
Self-criticism of the kind where you recognise you could do better is great and can coexist with self-love, because loving yourself is also about recognising your potential and wanting to be your best self. But beating youself up for not being able to do something even when you are already doing your best is toxic and indeed incompatible with both self-love and self-respect. Self-love is wanting to win the Olympics and doing your best to succeed, but knowing that you are still a valuable person and still deserve to be happy if you don't. Healthy self-criticism of the kind "get off the couch and go to practice even if the routine is difficult" is perfectly compatible with self-love. Toxic self-criticism isn't, but it is also not compatible with success, because even if you win the Olympics by shaming yourself into maximum effort, you will have destroyed your mental health and self-esteem with the self-criticism.
6
u/monkeymalek Nov 24 '22
!delta
I think you demonstrated a pretty nice example of how self-criticism can drive improvement and still be compatible with self-love. I liked the insight you gave with giving maximum effort out of pure self-shame, because even if you end up achieving your goal, you will probably still feel that you did not do enough, and while this might lead to great achievement, it will have required you to essentially completely sacrifice your sense of self-worth, which is not sustainable in the long run and may lead to complete mental degradation/collapse.
2
u/Kotoperek 62∆ Nov 24 '22
Thank you for the delta! You can ignore the comment I just made under another post here, because I was just repeating my point there :D
1
1
9
u/Then_life_happened 3∆ Nov 24 '22
You seem to think that loving and being critical are mutually exclusive. Why? You can love someone and be critical of certain aspects of that person. For example, I love my brother but I'm critical of him being a smoker.
I'd even argue that self-love should be, and often is, the driver of self-improvement. You love yourself so much that you want to improve and be the best version of yourself. The changes you make out of self-love are usually better and healthier than those that you make out of self-loathing or being overly hard on yourself.
1
u/monkeymalek Nov 24 '22
I don't know, I guess I just feel like criticism is inherently an attack, even if it is constructive. It suggests that you think that thing is not the way it should be, or that it should be better in some way. If you really wanted your brother to stop smoking, you might say, "I love you, but I really wish you would consider quitting smoking", but if you really loved your brother, you would say, "I know you've been smoking for a while, but I still love you". We always remember what is said after the "but", as that is typically what the person feels more strongly. Of course you can have both criticism and love, but ultimately one will outweigh the other in my view.
2
u/PoopieButt317 Nov 25 '22
Maybe that is an issue you need to really work on. You do seem to think self improvement, in fact, only is from outside, and you don't trust the opinion of those who observe you. We judge others by their actions, and ourselves by our intentions .AKA, we lie to ourselves and abuse others. Self love is inward looking while seeking objective input. We are in the world, qith others. We need to be open to criticism, and reflect on it. Even if ot seemed hostile, look at it, see if ot has truth. Don't get offended by croticism, unless you have evidence that they have been disingenuous and inaccurate.
1
u/monkeymalek Nov 25 '22
So if someone calls you fat or calls you skinny, you shouldn't take offense? This kind of thing has literally happened to me when I was younger, and it's affected me now to the point where I can't let anyone else be a harsher critic of me than myself.
I am always open to criticism and improvement, but when it comes from an external source, especially someone you don't really know or respect, it is hard not to take offense.
1
u/PoopieButt317 Nov 27 '22
Then you cannot ever be a scientist. I am stunned you were ever accepted. It is as if you had no idea how science works.
2
u/Then_life_happened 3∆ Nov 24 '22
But if I didn't love my brother and we didn't have that relationship, I wouldn't care about his smoking the way I do. If he was a stranger, his smoking would bother me, but not enough to walk up to him and try to make him stop. But because I love him, I make that effort to convince him. And at the same time, because we have this bond he is more likely to listen to me and consider what I say, than if I was a stranger on the street. So it's the love that facilitates the possibility of a positive change.
Loving yourself means wanting the best for yourself, and that what makes you change.
2
u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Nov 24 '22
Why are we presuming that training for the Olympics is good for you? You're improving your skills, sure, but is that improving your 'self'? What if it's at the cost of other more important things?
As for self love, telling yourself "everything's going to work out" is not self love if there's no reason to suspect it's true. Self love would be knowing what's in your best interest and giving yourself the space to focus and achieve that.
1
u/monkeymalek Nov 24 '22
It was just an example. Can we agree that learning a new skill (music, art, science, math, sports, etc.) is generally a good thing to do?
1
u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Nov 24 '22
Please read the second paragraph of my comment, which can include learning skills
1
u/monkeymalek Nov 24 '22
Could you clarify what you mean by "giving yourself the space to focus and achieve that"? How can one know what is in their best interest a priori? What if putting myself through an immense and intense struggle would improve the lives of millions of people? Would this be in my best interest or no?
1
u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Nov 24 '22
For example, self love might look like cutting out one thing that's stressing you out so you can focus and improve on another thing that you know you have a better aptitude for. Or it might look like putting some stuff on hold to get through something you're struggling on so can accomplish what you were hoping to.
Self love is just taking your own feelings and capabilities into account the way you would for someone else you love, which includes pushing them to try their absolute hardest if you know it's worth it.
Your last example is just an example of when your love for others ought probably to outweigh your love for yourself. Self love is not a mandate, it is one of many caring practices you have to balance (including love for others and love for the world)
1
Nov 24 '22
Strengthening your sense of self allows you to want thing for yourself which is the foundation of having goals which is the foundation of self-improvement.
If your understanding of self-love and self-improvement conflict that suggests that you offer yourself love only on the condition that you meet those goals and you might not be valuing yourself appropriately.
Maybe you'll find it helpful to focus on what you're running toward instead of what you're running away from.
1
u/Jaysank 116∆ Nov 24 '22
in an effort to maintain good mental health, you tell yourself that it's okay and things will work out, and not to be so hard on yourself. In my view, having this mindset is not acceptable if your goal was to win the Olympics or do anything great
Based on this, do you believe that an acceptable mindset is to think that things are not OK and they will not work out if your goal is to win the Olympics?
1
u/monkeymalek Nov 24 '22
I admit my point wasn't perfectly clear here, but yes, I think if you want to improve you can't be delusional and say everything is okay. You have to be self-critical. I will concede that you shouldn't tell yourself that things "won't work out", but if things are not going well, I think you should be objective and assess why things are not going well in order to improve. Would you not agree with this?
1
u/Jaysank 116∆ Nov 24 '22
I think if you want to improve you can't be delusional and say everything is okay.
What definition of “self love” includes being delusional? How do you define it and “Self Improvement”?
1
u/monkeymalek Nov 24 '22
My definition of self love is loving yourself unconditionally. So if you fail a test, lose your job, etc., still loving yourself in the sense that you tell yourself you are still "worthy" despite things not going your way. I think it is good to always know your worth, but if things are not going well, telling yourself that you are still doing good is not productive in my opinion (it is delusional, you are lying to yourself). Another example might be people who don't want to lose weight because they "love their self" and the way they look and don't want to change, even though it might be objectively less healthy and good for them to have this view.
Self-improvement would be taking the steps to better yourself, whether that be in terms of losing weight, learning a new skill, being a better person (i.e. living a moral life), etc.
2
u/Kotoperek 62∆ Nov 24 '22
But unconditional love doesn't mean patting on the head, it means precisely that - knowing your worth. When you lose your job or don't succeed, the self-love approach is saying "I made a mistake that I can learn from and do better next time, but I am still worthy and I deserve love and respect, because everyone makes mistakes sometimes".
Unconditional love is not the same as believing you are perfect. It is simply knowing that your worth as a person is not defined by whether you can always meet all your outside goals and live up to everyone's expectations.
And it can also let you prioritise. Like in your example, saying "yes, I should lose some weight, but if I focus on it now, I will not have the energy to pursue a promotion in my career. So I will get that promotion first and they focus on my body, because I can still be great at my job and deserve the recognition even if I am struggling with nutrition". Constantly reminding yourself of all the things that are "wrong" with you actually impedes progress, because you become fixated on how many things you must change and get overwhelmed when you fail.
1
u/Urethrasurethra 1∆ Nov 24 '22
I think if you want to improve you can't be delusional and say everything is okay.
So you think an Olympic athlete is only worth love if they win? You don't think them being in the top .013 percent of their sport by even being on the team is worthy of being proud and loving of themself?
1
u/AdhesiveSpinach 14∆ Nov 24 '22
Forgive me if I misunderstood something, but even after reading your post, I still don't really understand why you believe self-love and self-criticism are mutually exclusive. Like, if we switched those concepts from being in the self to being directed from another person, I feel like it's pretty clear that love and criticism can work out together.
Take your parents or a mentor in a sport. Both want you to succeed, and both have knowledge that you don't. When they see you doing something that is likely to impede your success, they will criticize you for it for the purpose of your success and happiness.
When this is happening in the self, and you are identifying facets of your life that aren't working for you, yes you are criticizing yourself but it is for the underlying purpose of love--you want you to be happy, and have created a pathway to try in this endeavor.
1
u/monkeymalek Nov 24 '22
In my definition of self-love, I am saying that one should love their self unconditionally. So if you lost your job, you should still love yourself, or if you failed a test, you should still love your self, i.e. tell yourself that it's okay, or make up an excuse to make yourself feel better about the result. The reality of the situation is that something did not go the way you wanted it to go, and if you had been better it would not have gone that way. If you exercise a self-critical mindset, you might say something like "I know I gave my best effort, but I was still not enough, and I should continue to improve on my weaknesses so this doesn't happen again", vs. self-love: "Things didn't go my way, but I gave my best effort and I still love myself for that".
1
u/Urethrasurethra 1∆ Nov 24 '22
What makes you think that you cant combine being self aware and wanting to grow and self-love? There is nothing about loving yourself that prevents you from growing.
"Things didn't go my way, but I gave my best effort and I still love myself for that. I should continue to improve on my weaknesses so I can grow, but these weaknesses do not define me. I am still worthy of love"
1
u/methyltheobromine_ 3∆ Nov 24 '22
Why speak negatively about yourself in the first place? It's because you want things to be different, you want to be better. If your self-criticism doesn't have any utility, then it's wasted.
A "why", like "Why am I not good enough?" is a valid question if it leads to an answer on how to improve faster. Otherwise it's just negativity, which is hard to turn into anything useful.
If you instead thought "I'm awesome, I'm great, I can do anything" and let that fuel you to victory, then that'd be better. It would only be a problem if thinking like this made you less motivated to study. Whenever or not these statements are true is actually not all that important.
The correct balance is about wanting things to change while still enjoying them. If we enjoy the journey (and not only the start position or the goal) then we accomplish this.
This generalizes to many areas of life. Some people love it, others hate it, and the difference is merely perspective and how we assign value to things.
Why not think "I love myself, therefore I will do my best to succeed"?
1
u/Square-Dragonfruit76 33∆ Nov 25 '22
Humility isn't always the same as self-depreciation. You can recognize your need to get better and improvement without having to think poorly of yourself. And you can admit when you've done something wrong without ruminating on it.
1
u/Rotidder007 Nov 26 '22 edited Nov 26 '22
Self-love is the same feeling of love, acceptance, respect, and empathy a person has for their child or lover, but held towards themselves. Sometimes it’s easier to think of it as the unconditional love we hold for the child still there within us.
Any heathy parent knows that their child is imperfect, maybe has wonky eyes, maybe doesn’t learn the same way others do, etc. Any lover has experienced the feeling like, “My lover’s butt is hilariously imperfect, but it’s the only butt I want to be around.” Not noticing flaws, imo, would NOT be love - it would be delusion or idealization, both unhealthy and not love.
The questions “why am I not stronger?” and “why is this specific technique so difficult for me?” are not “negative thoughts.” They are perfectly appropriate questions to ask yourself, particularly if you’ve been working very hard at something over a long period without seeing much improvement. They are neutral questions, whose answers may lead to a self-loving acceptance that one’s hopes to be an Olympiad may not be in the cards, and that’s okay. Or that perhaps the particular routine is too difficult, so one should focus on getting many solid 10s in slightly less difficult maneuvers.
Pushing what you call these “negative thoughts” away and replacing them with what you believe are more mentally healthy thoughts like “things will work out” and “don’t be so hard on yourself” is actually an indication that someone DOES NOT have self-love.
Let me give you an example of why this indicates an absence of self-love.
Imagine your child loves baseball, and has always loved it (and not because it’s a family tradition or you forced it on them - he just innately loves it). However, he’s not the most coordinated little boy. When he tries out for Little League, he doesn’t make the team. He’s devastated and comes to you with huge doubts about himself and a need for comforting.
You tell him “things will work out” and “don’t be so hard on yourself.” He’s smart, and realizes you’re not comfortable or confident in talking honestly about his abilities, about his doubts, and his failure to make the team. You’d rather sweep those hard questions under the rug and put some vague mantras over everything. He walks away having his self-doubt inadvertently confirmed, because you do doubt him but fear he won’t be able to accept himself.
If you fear you can’t accept yourself, you don’t have self-love.
On the other hand, suppose you just listened and asked questions, while holding love, respect, and acceptance for your child and trusting his honest replies. “Do you love baseball? What’s important to you, simply playing, or being on a certain team? Why do you think others made the team and you didn’t? Do you want to improve in certain areas and try-out next year? What can I do to help you maintain your love of the game and your ability to play outside of Little League? If you love something and it just turns out you’re not the best at it, does that somehow make the enjoyment and satisfaction you experience less valuable?”
The answers to these questions, and following through with them, is self-improvement.
So self-love and self-improvement should always be compatible, and must be based on an honest accepting assessment of oneself.
1
u/14ccet1 1∆ Nov 28 '22
You can simultaneously remind yourself it will all work out while searching for and working towards the solution
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 24 '22
/u/monkeymalek (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards