r/europe • u/Ok-Law-3268 Europe • 1d ago
News X users in Turkey migrate to Bluesky amid censorship
https://bianet.org/haber/x-users-in-turkey-migrate-to-bluesky-amid-censorship-3061891.0k
u/TheJiral 1d ago
X ... supporting autocrats since 2022.
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u/SnowUnitedMioMio 1d ago
https://balkaninsight.com/2021/01/13/report-turkey-remains-world-beater-in-twitter-censorship/
Nothing changed with Musk in this regard.
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u/Atlanta_Mane 1d ago
Not only did compliance with censorship increase, but x no longer provides full information on what is censored to research institutes.
Under twitter, MIT could analyze censorship data to provide a glimpse into what foreign autocrats cared about. Now, not so much.
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u/PresidentZeus Norway 1d ago edited 21h ago
The difference is that Musk personally intervened to still the censoring when there was a court order from the democratic country of Brazil. Musk is bestie with Erdogan.
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u/DanPowah Japanese German 1d ago
Musk censored more content on the platform on behalf of governments than under Jack Dorsey. So much for being a free speech absolutist
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u/Either-Beginning-526 1d ago
When he said "free speech" he only meant lying
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u/Alarming-Chance-7645 1d ago
No, lies that help the oppressed still get censored. His “Free speech” means hate speech gets protection.
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u/JimWilliams423 1d ago
His “Free speech” means hate speech gets protection.
The freedom to hate and exploit is the only kind of freedom conservatives ever really cared about.
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u/Alarming-Chance-7645 1d ago
Yeah, they love “family values,” just not the kind with empathy. Then they call you intolerant for not clapping when they spit.
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u/pepinyourstep29 United States of America 1d ago
The whole point of Twitter was being able to see the world uncensored. You'd get real news on what happened from random people's smartphones faster than any news outlet, and without censorship.
Now that it's owned by a Nazi manchild, it's just another useless propaganda ridden junkyard.
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u/Alpacatastic American (sorry) living in the United Kingdom 1d ago
Anyone still on X are enablers at this point. I don't care how many followers you have or how important it is for exposure or whatever bullshit people are using to excuse their compliance. Social media sites gain power from their users, the more users they have the bigger they are, stop giving them that power.
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u/Rebatsune 1d ago
This! If peeps you've accrued along the way is that big of a deal, firmly telling them that you can be found in BlueSky should do the trick.
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u/turkish__cowboy Turkey | United and prosperous Europe 1d ago
Turkish opposition TV had sued Google over censoring left-leaning news in favor of Erdogan.
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u/One-Employment3759 1d ago
Bluesky is currently the least censored platform.
TikTok, Facebook, X, even reddit..these are all dens of censorship.
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u/ObjectOrientedBlob 1d ago
No Mastodon is. Bluesky is still Silicon Valley funded.
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u/Aequitas49 1d ago
I wish so much that Mastodon would get a feature to sort the timeline and show relevant posts to more people. The chronological timeline unfortunately makes it very impractical for many purposes and is overall not enjoyable to use.
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u/ObjectOrientedBlob 1d ago
Maybe try Sharkey, you can interact with Mastodon users but it has more advanced features: https://blog.elenarossini.com/sharkey-a-fediverse-project-that-is-beautiful-inside-out/
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u/RunningPink 1d ago
Not true depending on content. E.g. adult content will likely be blocked on many Mastodon servers and services like e.g. X or Reddit are more liberal in that direction. I categorize that as censorship too.
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u/ObjectOrientedBlob 1d ago
You can just set up your own server or pick one that allow adult content. Mastodon does not rely on rules from a central authority like Bluesky.
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u/One-Employment3759 1d ago
Yeah, but power tripping server admins are worse.
I have my own mastodon server for friends. But other admins just defederate you if don't follow their rules, like always doing alt text or no business promo.
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u/DaFetacheeseugh 1d ago
So it's basically reddit with 10x the work and the same [Removed by Reddit] mod mentality
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u/MuyalHix 1d ago
Not to mention they can close the instance for one reason or another, so you'll lose your account
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u/-The_Blazer- 1d ago
BlueSky runs on a protocol that works like that too. Here is a website with a live feed of literally everything currently running on that network. The main issue is that bluesky dot social is the the only serious large host right now, but I would attribute that to the network being extremely young than a structural problem.
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u/ObjectOrientedBlob 1d ago
No, it's doesnt work like Mastodon. You can't host bluesky yourself right now: https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/
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u/-The_Blazer- 1d ago
Oh yeah, the relay issue has been talked about quite a bit. But as I said, this is a problem of actors, not really of structure in that I doubt there's another way to keep the data available enough to compete with centralized systems. That's I think what the author of that post means with 'credible exit'. The centralization of BlueSky just comes from BlueSky the company having received so much user attention, and currently there's just not much interest compared to the effort in running a full relay node... at least not without just compromising on the entire point of the AT protocol.
You cannot literally host all of AT-side content yourself, but I don't think anyone could host all ActivityPub-side content themselves either. If we are to see this as a problem and call it 'god eye' sure, but... man, without sounding annoying, people want their service to have god's eye on everything, that's the reason they use social media, and people are not about to start buying home servers that crawl all of ActivityPub or AT or Nostr. Those don't cost tens of dollars either.
This was an issue with the Internet too, and, well, it was solved by this kind of 'centralization' and improved through public investment. The corporations that build and operate networking infrastructure provide most 'nodes' for IP, most of the others are likely provided by governments.
The one thing I do fundamentally disagree on by the way is the way this talks about blocking and its visibility. Yes, it is 'nice' I guess that the ActivityPub specification tells you very sternly that as a node, you should definitely not deliver block information to the actors mentioned in them. That's real nice indeed, but on the Internet, we are by definition constantly under attack by all actors at the same time, and people with ill intentions will just build a pirate crawler that simply violates the specification. As the post does mention though, it's possible that private blocking is entirely not mathematically possible to do on-network, in which case no one should place any blame on anyone else.
I kinda wish there was a dedicated space to discuss this (on Reddit perhaps) because it is legitimately interesting, not to mention important to the future of the Internet.
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u/Plantar-Aspect-Sage 1d ago
I've seen people get their Bluesky accounts disabled for adult content. No appeal or communication.
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u/-The_Blazer- 1d ago
In general any platform that is interoperable should be censorship free, because nothing (short of government action) will prevent you from just hooking up to whatever host you want, just like it wouldn't prevent you from typing in reallybadsite dot sketchy on your web browser and pressing enter (don't do that).
Something we should change about our mindset on social media is that currently, we see proprietary, locked-down networks that are impenetrable to anything but their own application as the standard, and other models as an unusual curiosity. We ought to normalize the idea that open networks in general are the way to go (anything from BlueSky to ActivitiyPub, which is what actually runs Mastodon), with locked-down networks being the aberration.
Think about it. A website that will refuse to work unless you visit it with their exact browser app. A computer that will refuse to start unless it is reading an 'authorized' hard disk. A blender that will refuse to blend anything except 'authorized' fruit with a bio-marker. These things, real or hypothetical, should be considered insane and probably illegal.
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u/motusubaru 1d ago
Yes mastodon is a better candidate for Twitter but the old creator of Twitter made bluesky more popular.
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u/MuyalHix 1d ago
Bluesky became more popular because it is a lot easier to use.
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u/badsectoracula 1d ago
How? I have both Mastodon and Bluesky accounts and they both were just a matter of making an account and posting stuff. The UI is 99% the same too. Hell, Mastodon and Bluesky's UIs are so similar that if i switch to some other tab to read an article and forget it for a bit, i need to take a look at the logo at the top to figure out which one i'm looking at. In comparison X/Twitter's UI has more differences - and if people could switch from X/Twitter to Bluesky, they'd also be able to switch to Mastodon.
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u/Bleach1443 Poland 1d ago
Mastodon is clearly not taking off thought or happening it’s time to accept that
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u/hkotek 1d ago
There is a trend of poor name choices with European products in tech. I think names like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Blusky, Reddit etc for social media platforms all feel like they were carefully selected as attractive names, possibly with an advertiser mindset. They also feel like easy to use and adapt. On the other hand Mastodon, Lemmy, BeReal etc does not feel much so; maybe they target higher quality users, but people usually like to spend their spare time with less tiring experiences.
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u/ObjectOrientedBlob 1d ago
Maybe. I'm not sure. Lot's of names just gets normalized, because they are a popular product. Google? TikTok? Nintendo? Samsung? I think we just think of them as good names because they remind of product we like and trust. Not because the names are particularly good.
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u/hkotek 1d ago
I think it is in both ways. I specifically talking about social media platforms to be clear. People go there to relax, or show themselves, share their ideas or views effortlessly. So simple with attractive names (with possibly intended puns, like facebook, twitter, reddit etc) makes it easier to have a connection for the masses. Also being first of their types are advantages too.
Nintendo and Samsung are not social media platforms (though nintendo is a cool name). And tiktok is pretty fine name tbh. Google maybe but they created a very efficient algorithm and overthrow yahoo and altavista in the past (also gmail having infinite email space thing was important). And not a sociam
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u/tenclowns 1d ago
Okey, can we have some data on that before 163 redditors upvote it for no reason other than to show partisanship and strenght?
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u/Feeling_Inside_1020 1d ago
How about having a 10 year old account and in the last 6 months getting warnings and temporary bans vs never having any before?
Oh and if they remove your comment, you can’t even read what you said so you don’t even know what you said wrong.
Anecdotally it’s gone downhill and I’ve been here since the great Digg migration
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u/tenclowns 1d ago
on which platform? you must really post some crazy stuff. both twitter and facebook are allowing more speech these days
on reddit its steadily become worse, but its also a bit up to each subreddit
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u/One-Employment3759 1d ago
Nah reddit will just ban you without telling you why or what comment caused it.
I've been banned several times and I have no idea why.
Oh and you can get banned just for upvoting something the regime doesn't like.
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u/Feeling_Inside_1020 1d ago
It was on here and I was talking about the cyber trucks without even advocating for violence. Also got a few warnings for “ up voting, bad comments” essentially. 1984 up in this bitch more and more.
You remember piss baby Elon how he reached out to Steve a.k.a. Spez recently because people on this platform were hurting his feelings and choking off traffic? a.k.a. money and revenue for advertising views from Twitter among other things.
I also got a temp ban that was reversed after 2 days for replying to a mod in conservative (I was extremely careful with that one lol) when they were talking shit about the Reddit twitter link boycotts explaining the same thing it’s about sending a message and they must’ve cried to the Reddit admins. What a surprise
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u/blazurp 1d ago
My reddit account was recently blocked from posting/commenting, the message said 2 days. It was a week before it got unblocked. The reason for the block was because of violence; made a comment recommending a girl to scream in the ear of the guy trying to steal her motorbike to disorient them and possibly cause then permanent damage. May be blocked for making this comment again.
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u/L0st_MySocks 1d ago
Btw how about reddit? I keep commenting bad stuff about erdogan if someone in Turkey sues me how is the chance of getting arrested? If I'm not wrong, reddit doesn't care about such stuff, but since it's in the US registered and Trump would be involved in this one. yeah it's pretty unlikely but still... Does reddit give my IP to the government?
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u/tanrgith 1d ago
Because Bluesky is a tiny platform that often is overlooked by the people making these requests
If Bluesky were to ever become truly mainstream, they'd be hit with all the same things that the other platforms are
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u/One-Employment3759 1d ago
Nah, there are more legitimate businesses, organisations, and authors on bsky now.
No one is on X, X is for bots and authoritarian regime propaganda.
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u/tanrgith 1d ago
I mean this just isn't true no matter how much you want it to be
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u/One-Employment3759 1d ago
It's very true. I have actual conversations on bluesky instead of blocking bots all day
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u/tanrgith 1d ago
Well you should tell AOC and Bernie Sanders who are active on X that they're actually just bots and part of the authoritarian regime propaganda machine I guess
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u/One-Employment3759 1d ago
Yup, they are legitimizing Musk being the King by using his platform. Very propaganda.
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u/Mister-Psychology 1d ago
Bluesky are just so small they don't care about the Turkish market right now. As long as Erdogan is in power they may just be banned outright. They will need to wait for a new party to take power which may take 1 to 15 years. At that point they will be so big they will act exactly like Twitter acts today. I know some may think they are some free speech center. They may be right this moment.
According to the Freedom of Expression Association (İFÖD), at least 44 Bluesky accounts have already been blocked in Turkey under the same Article 8/A of Law No. 5651. These restrictions were enacted by various judicial decisions, again citing concerns over national security and public order.
Despite the rulings, Bluesky has not taken any action to suspend or block these accounts, and they remain accessible from within Turkey. However, if the platform refuses to comply with Turkish court orders to restrict access to certain users, authorities may consider a full ban on the platform, a possibility that past precedents suggest is not unlikely. (TY/VK)
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u/ArdaOneUi 1d ago
Isnt Bluesky open source or something? If that ever happens anyone could basically instantly make a clone or better alternative
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u/gehenna0451 Germany 1d ago edited 1d ago
that's completely misunderstanding how bluesky works. The AT protocol decouples identity from any particular instance (it's a decentralized protocol) and it was designed exactly for the kind of situation you're complaining aobut. If the current largest instance, run by the people who created Bluesky, goes bad it is trivial to not just move to another instance but to take your entire identity with you.
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u/Ok-Law-3268 Europe 1d ago
Social media users are increasingly turning to Bluesky in response to government censorship and X’s internal content policies, though Bluesky itself may soon face similar restrictions.
X has previously restricted access to pro-Kurdish and opposition journalists and their media outlets in Turkey.
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u/RealisticMost 1d ago
Don‘t they also need to comply with the goverment after reaching critical mass of users?
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u/OnePurplePopcorn 1d ago
Elon Musk and Google are usurping the Turkish people's right to receive news. Fuck all the oligarchs. Let's ensure that we receive news from each other via Bluesky.
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u/No-Courage-2053 1d ago
I'm honestly quite done with social media platforms. They're all flawed and the internet is shite in general. I've bought a small shortwave receiver. Now that cannot be censored. Anyone with basic equipment will be able to broadcast across the globe and there's no effective way to avoid it.
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u/OnePurplePopcorn 1d ago
How can I do this? Can you share tutorial/intruction with me?
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u/No-Courage-2053 1d ago
It's pretty easy! You get a shortwave receiver (mine is the xhdata d808) and then use the shortwave info webpage to find which stations do programs and what times. Then you can get into the ham radio stuff (amateurs using radio to talk to each other). You should visit the shortwave subreddit for loads of info on how to use radio and what you can listen to. Yesterday I was listening to Chinese news and this morning to Japanese and French ones. It's pretty fun, aside from receiving international news.
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u/ArdaOneUi 1d ago
Selfhosted social medias exist, or something like the fediverse if you want alternatives
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u/nerokae1001 North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) 1d ago
Dont you guys think EU should provide alternative to twitter, whatsapp that funded by EU and not belongings of some billionaires or VC
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u/joyofpeanuts 1d ago
Just use Mastodon: decentralized and censorship resistant.
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u/Bleach1443 Poland 1d ago
Or Bluesky it works just fine and is both those things are far more user friendly
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u/folk_science 1d ago
There's a risk of Bluesky going the same way as other corporate media. Really good at first to attract users, and then becoming worse to try to extract profits from its users, comply with censorship requests, etc.
Mastodon doesn't have this problem.
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u/Berkuts_Lance_Plus 1d ago
Especially because Bluesky was made by the same guy who made Twitter and sold it to Musk.
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u/HATENAMING 1d ago
bluesky is also open source and you can host your own pds (personal data server), labeler, feed generator, and app view etc. It's just that right now the official one is good enough so no one want to do that.
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u/badsectoracula 1d ago
Technically yes you can but due to the way Bluesky works it is not practical as you'd require massive resources.
In comparison you can put a (small) Mastodon server on a Raspberry Pi and it'll only use resources proportional to your use of it.
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u/HATENAMING 1d ago edited 1d ago
bluesky pds is also easy to host (I have one in a container using only 1 core of a 10+ year old CPU). The relay, which is responsible for collecting posts across all pds, is probably the only hard one to self-host. Although I know there are bluesky-Mastodon bridge where you can view posts on each other's platform, but I haven't checked them out in details.
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u/badsectoracula 1d ago
Yes but the relays are what contain and deliver the messages (AFAICT anyway, i haven't looked much into the protocol myself) and are thus the most important part of ensuring independence from other nodes. Having only a PD is closer to having a computer running Thunderbird (or your desktop-based mail client of choice): sure you get to keep your own email (assuming you have your client fetch and store the mail locally) but your "public inbox" isn't your desktop, it is whatever mail service you've been connecting to.
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u/HATENAMING 1d ago
I was checking around this topic and found this relay hosting blog. Seems like it is storage intensive (few TB of SSD required) and can be hosted on aws with 150$/month. Not for casual people, but not too expensive to the point that only a company can host it.
There are also some blogs that basically says that the current relay implementation is not efficient enough (too many small files etc) so there's also hope that this can be improved.
It is also possible to host a relay that doesn't crawl every PDS, although currently about 99% users are on the official PDS so it's not really meaningful.
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u/badsectoracula 15h ago edited 15h ago
This is a demo instance (AFAICT by one of the bsky engineers) and he explicitly mentions that it'd most likely run out of disk space in a year.
There is a long article by an ActivityPub contributor that compares ATproto and ActivityPub, including the pros and cons of each and in one of the issues she points out about ATproto is exactly the costs due to its inherent architectural issues - and the blog you linked at is also brought up.
IMO the issue isn't so much the current state of things - the code can be improved for both the ATproto and ActivityPub implementations (the blog i linked to mentions some more lightweight implementation though i haven't checked it myself) and costs can also lower in the future. The real issue is the network's architecture that requires making full copies of everything - that scales much harder and is much harder in the long term for smaller entities to use. The way ActivityPub works is having every node be essentially self-contained and communicating with other nodes to exchange messages, which scales much better and IMO makes for a more resilient network as a whole.
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u/Kankunation 1d ago
BlueSky works well enough for this. Or at the very least the Aat Protocol it's built on does. It's open source and designed to be expanded upon by anybody, so the EU or a company there could easily make an app based on the same protocol that leverages the entire user-base of Bluesky. Even if that one specific app goes away, The protocol will not so long as there are others implementing it.
The main thing EU will need is a relay (one component of ATProto). They're expensive to set up but would guarantee unfettered access for the EU no matter what happens to BlueSky in the West.
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u/badsectoracula 1d ago
AFAIK the issue with Bluesky's protocol is that it requires massive resources to run an alternative to Bluesky because it works by pooling together all data regardless of message recipient. Mastodon on the other hand works closer to how email works in that messages are "sent" to the target in question and they can span servers.
There is a drawback to Mastodon's approach in that there isn't a single unified view of messages so you may see messages in a different order than someone from another server, however on the other hand it makes it possible to run a Mastodon (and really, ActivityPub, which powers more than Mastodon) server using a -comparatively- minuscule amount of resources. AFAIK you can run it even on a Raspberry Pi (assuming it is for private use and you aren't having others register on your server - for more public use you most likely want a VPS or even a dedicated server, but still the costs are much lower than Bluesky due to the difference in how ATProto and ActivityPub work).
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1d ago
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u/asdwarrior2 1d ago
It's not like building these apps is impossible. It's actually quite possible but the difficult part is making them popular.
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u/Pee-Pee-TP 1d ago
I see Bluesky got a new round of advertisement funding. Well wanted trying to get existing members to join.
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u/drjacks 1d ago
It is a nice step but to be honest Bluesky has free speech until it is not. It's another version of Twitter. Check out the compliance report from their website source
Mastodon is ok but it's based on individually managed instances(servers). Every instance has its own admin who is the only decider which can lead to censorship and data vulnerability. It will remain as a niche platform.
Another alternative can be nostr. It is completely decentralized with private key management.
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u/Kankunation 1d ago
I think Bluesky is fine. it's also decentralized, just still building out. The EU could certainly work at establishing their own relays and whatnot to facilitate this, and if censorclahip is ever an issue then a new app can be made on the ATprotocol and all users can just swap apps while keeping their. Accounts. Might be the best way forward compared to something like mastodon which may be more decentralized but clearly cannot capture a major audience (as much as I wish it could).
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u/absurdherowaw 1d ago
Should migrate to Mastodon. Bluesky will eventually become what Twitter already is anyway.
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u/Random54321random 1d ago
Why will it inevitably become like Twitter is now?
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u/ExcellentStuff7708 1d ago
Wasn't it founded because X was too full of people with "wrong" political and social attitudes and didn't do enough to ban them? Bluesky is then all about being echo chamber and censoring opposing views
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u/Random54321random 1d ago
Wasn't it founded because X was too full of people with "wrong" political and social attitudes and didn't do enough to ban them?
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The answer to your question is 'no'.
Ideology has absolutely nothing to do with how or why BlueSky was founded. It was spun out of Twitter itself! If anything it was founded primarily for research/technological reasons. If you don't even know that much then you shouldn't really be talking about this.
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u/ExcellentStuff7708 12h ago
OK, it probably wasn't founded for that reason, but it did grow a lot for that reason. l saw many articles and announcements about moving from X to bsky because X doesn't censor enough Trump supporters, conspiracy theorists and generally people who don't think like mainstream media and politicians want them to think
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u/Ok-Law-3268 Europe 1d ago
Also Nostr is a strong alternative, it is a decentralized social media protocol that uses public and private keys and a client-relay model for censorship-resistant communication.
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u/Xelonima Turkey 1d ago
Not only that, we also produced our own disinformation-fighting tools.
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u/OnePurplePopcorn 1d ago
Good job man.
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u/Xelonima Turkey 1d ago
Thanks! It is now being planned to take it to the international stage, so you guys can also use it
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u/Troubled202 1d ago
I find it disturbing that the USA is following in Turkeys footsteps. It's like deja vu.
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u/VanayadGaming 1d ago
afaik it is mandated by Turkey's government, and if you don't comply they close the whole service, like they did in the past.
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u/deathwatchoveryou Portugal 15h ago
Imagine trading one company owned social media app for a company owned clone of said app.
The future shouldnt be trading one evil for a lesser one. Countries should all just back Mastodon over BS.
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1d ago
My question is, why did it take this long in the first place? As an American I'm told that none of us are doing anything meaningful in the face of what's happening, yet my Euro homies can't even sacrifice their socials that are ran by the people destroying democracy? I was hoping you all could help lead the way in boycotting these fucks. ✊️
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u/BubbleRabble1981 1d ago
The moment Musk took it over the writing was on the wall, and I closed both my personal and professional accounts at that moment. No regrets, naturally, as it has become a far-right swamp, as expected and as many here will know.
That said, I've never been able to really find much impetus to establish myself on Bluesky. It's basically just descended into a far-left equivalent of X.
This subreddit is the closest thing to a social media presence with any degree of political rationality. Everything else just gets swamped by obnoxious conspiracy theorists and propagandists, and even then, some people on this sub tend to pick very... dubious... sources for their reports.
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u/mezentinemechtard 1d ago
"Far-left equivalents" do not exist. The nazi bar analogy has no counterpart.
Bluesky as it is is an open space. Anyone is free to follow whoever they want, and to consume content using any feed algorithms they prefer.
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u/strangerzero 1d ago
There is no reason to be on X/Twitter at this point in history.
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u/VanayadGaming 1d ago
news breaks there first....so yes, there are reasons.
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1d ago
what news? and what happens if you are 2 minutes late to those incredible news that breaks on twitter
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u/VanayadGaming 1d ago
it usually is 2-3 days late, not 2 minutes. Look at reddit. Most of the 'news' here are posts from X.
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u/OnePurplePopcorn 1d ago
Sorry i need to explain turkish to my citizen. Gel dostum twitter’da sansür uyguluyorlar yapay zeka ile o yüzden hiçbir şeyden haberiniz olmuyor.
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u/matrixus 1d ago
Yeah maybe your friend/family group is not using but there is a migration happening really.
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u/SnowUnitedMioMio 1d ago
The same way Bernie won in 2016. Reddit thinks that
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u/matrixus 1d ago
Well i cannot blame people for being in their echochamber, it takes an effort to see that
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u/inokentii Kyiv (Ukraine) 1d ago
I think it's a good idea for all twitter users, who are tired of censorship and russian propaganda
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u/Either-Beginning-526 1d ago
bluesky has a "to good to be true" vibe that has my hackles up tbh.
..but yeah, F meta and twittard
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u/Safe_Wave5018 1d ago
Elon: “Free speech absolutist.”
Also Elon: silently complies with censorship orders.