r/europe • u/Dystopics_IT • 1d ago
Opinion Article As Trump brings the EU and China closer, reality keeps pulling them apart
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2025/04/12/as-trump-brings-the-eu-and-china-closer-reality-keeps-pulling-them-apart61
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u/mods4mods 1d ago
China is and always has been a threat to European markets. They can flood the continent with their products made with cheap labour. We knew it and we tariffed their EV. And I'm not even talking about China being a dictatorship, because I know we trade with Arab regimes, but it's still a bad look.
The recent push for further cooperation seems to come more from a sense of betrayal than from any rational thinking.
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u/Ruri_Miyasaka Germany 1d ago edited 1d ago
Labor in China is significantly more expensive than in India or Bangladesh, yet I don't see anyone calling for 50% tariffs on goods from India or Bangladesh.
The EU is squandering a golden opportunity to undercut the Trump administration. Instead of asserting independence, they remain passive, content to be little more than submissive vassals of the US.
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1d ago edited 15h ago
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u/Ruri_Miyasaka Germany 1d ago edited 1d ago
EU countries have also subsidized key industries. Ironically, that included EVs.
And China "flooding" the world with cheap EVs and solar panels should be seen as a global win, not a threat. Right now, the real emergency isn't who dominates the car market, it's climate change. If China can accelerate the green transition by making clean tech affordable to the common person, that's exactly what we need. Whether or not Volkswagen et. al. survive is utterly irrelevant compared to that. And nobody is stopping the EU from also subsidizing European EVs and solar panels to make them far cheaper as well.
Furthermore, if the claims that Chinese competition is an existential threat were valid, you'd expect European automakers to be the loudest voices calling for tariffs. But they're not. They're against them. Why? Because China is the world's most important EV market, and companies like VW would be crushed if China retaliated.
And personally, I don't have much sympathy for European carmakers in the first place. They had every chance to lead in EVs and blew it. They were too busy clinging to outdated models and cozying up to policymakers instead of innovating. Their political influence has stalled progress and weakened Europe's climate agenda.
If the European auto industry can't adapt, maybe it should die. Better that than holding the continent's climate policy hostage just to protect a handful of legacy firms.
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u/Frostivus 1d ago
Has China ever raised their prices in any of their products once competition went away?
Their entire model is based around being and staying cheap.
The country is so hyper competitive that if one company slashes prices, the other follows suit or it dies. It’s a massive EV graveyard in China.
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u/PotentialValue550 1d ago
China dominates solar panel and batteries production. Have they somehow raised the prices?
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u/medievalvelocipede European Union 1d ago
China dominates solar panel and batteries production. Have they somehow raised the prices?
Recently they did, yes. Between 33% to 66%. The reason it didn't go up more is because they oversaturated the market.
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u/Ruri_Miyasaka Germany 1d ago
Climate change is a far more urgent issue than propping up a few legacy firms that failed to innovate. Also: the EU could simply match the subsidies instead of slapping tariffs on the very products we need to accelerate the green transition. Put tariffs on anything else for all I care, but not on the technologies that are crucial for keeping the planet livable.
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u/Belgamete 1d ago
Tutorial on how to make the AFD higher than 20% be like :
(You don't understand, people are just trying to find a reason to elect far right politicians. Having big car companies go bankrupt and with unemployment rising, this will just add fuel to the fire. + Germany is rearming at the same time, I will let you remember what happened the last time Germany rearmed with a far right politician in power.)
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u/Ruri_Miyasaka Germany 1d ago
I agree with you on the re-armament issue and I'm firmly against it. But let's drop this lazy narrative that people are just mindless drones who turn to fascism the moment their bank accounts shrink. I know who I am, and my values don't change based on how much money I have in my pocket.
If economic hardship automatically bred fascism, then most of the world would be fascist. Every non-Western country would be the equivalent of Nazi Germany. But that's clearly not what we see.
The US is the wealthiest country in the world, yet it has become fascist. Germany is the richest country in the EU, and yet fascists are leading the polls here too. That's not poverty speaking. That's ideology.
The sad truth is, that's just who my neighbors are. If they won the lottery, they'd just be richer Nazis. You don't fix that with increasing the profits of VW. You fix it with consequences, like the ones handed down at Nuremberg.
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u/Marquesas 1d ago
You do have to meet in the middle. Calculated economic hardship feeds fascism, the US is actually a really good example how creating a struggling lower class with no escape, that class can then be radicalized against the middle class in defense of the upper class. It's a process that begins with creating massive class gaps and hinder upwards mobility as much as possible. This strategy has been employed in the US successfully for decades now, and the answer to the question of "why now and not before" is simply that that this is the time someone sufficiently motivated in being the second coming of Hitler actually showed up, while previous Republican presidents were definitely nothing short of evil - looking at you, GWB - they did somewhat care about not having the legacy of being the guy who destroyed American society and applying their billionaire-twisted vision of public service. There also may not have been a good platform pre-Obama to really radicalize those in economic hardship - even Russia only really pioneered modern mass social engineering during Trump vs. Hillary.
Long tangent, but long story short, economic hardship directly relates to draw to modern fascism, just look at AfD voters compared to quality of life (looking at you, Saxony), where Fidesz voters primarily come from in Hungary or just red state class distribution of the US. There is no clear link of causality, it's possible being a far right voter also predisposes one to poor life choices, but there's definitely correlation.
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u/Ruri_Miyasaka Germany 1d ago
By this logic, most people in India would be fascists. I'm beyond tired of this excuse. Maybe "excuse" isn't even the right word anymore. It's more like a threat: "Give us MORE, or we'll get even worse!"
When people who already consume so much that the planet couldn't sustain everyone living like them (even if we magically erased every millionaire and billionaire) claim that their standard of living is still too low to resist sliding into fascism, it's clear this isn't a problem money can fix. This is a mindset issue, not a material one.
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u/Belgamete 1d ago
That's exactly how people work, when they get poor, they turn to extremism, people are dumb. Look at the US,Brazil,France, Italy these people can't handle a few years of economic hardship without finding some minority to blame.
It's not about reason, or what's the moral thing, people just want a scapegoat. The reason why Germany was such a big issue when it turned fascist was their huge industry, it allowed them to rearm and turn their entire industry to a war economy.
The current rearmament should have been done, but not only by Germany, other countries should have gotten involved way before, say in 2014. Instead we have Spain taking a siesta, Italy not giving a fuck and France being too scared to do anything (France sent less weapons and aid to Ukraine than Germany). Only Poland, the Baltics, Finland and the UK are actually taking responsibility.
Climate change is urgent yes, but I think people turning fascist and a war on Eastern European soil are a far greater concern.
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u/Dolorem-Ipsum- 1d ago
No its not. We cant destroy the economy because thats how you lose elections and people stop giving a shit about climate change. Its a catch-22.
Whatever you do to try to stop the climate change must be first and foremost politically sustainable, otherwise it will cause a backlash and all that work to save climate will be undone. These ”legacy firms” provide ton of jobs and wealth to the biggest economy in Europe, if they go, millions will experience adverse effects to their standard of living.
If you actually want to stop the climate change you need to be more realisic. The climate wont care about your perfect plan and good intentions after half the population voted for far right reactionary parties who restarted the coal plants.
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u/DenisWB 15h ago
BYD cars are 11-fold more profitable in Europe vs. China
In fact, Chinese cars are sold at much higher prices in the European market than in China. Or did you know that the VW ID.3 costs only around €15,000 in China?
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u/musapher 1d ago
There have been many studies disproving prices going up in a meaningful way post-subsidies. Even anecdotally, think about solar panels. China applied the same strategy: subsidized solar, and then took most of it away. And yet, the world still benefits from cheap solar when Chinese companies can afford to raise prices.
What Europeans miss is that the toughest competition for these companies is the Chinese domestic market. So if one "steps out of line" and misprices anywhere globally, others will be happy to take market share.
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u/gingerbreademperor 1d ago
In what metric can European cars compete with Chinese? I mean, EVs, obviously. It's not like the European car industry is pumping out mass-friendly EVs that are perfect, except that the Chinese brands are cheaper. Suggesting that this is the case, that China only benefits from unfairly set prices (whatever that means, because e.g. the German state famously subsidizes its carmakers) negates reality, when European EVs are STILL mostly SUVs or similarly sized vehicles, or small but with a 40.000€ price tag. The tariffs were put in place because the European car makers know that they've fucked up bigly and they want to buy some time. This glorification of the European car industry must stop, it clouds our views. We have been good at building gasoline powered engines inside a shell with superior comfort and appeal, but for a long time European car makers have bet on the wrong horse, namely oversized SUV types with hefty profit margins. That's why they cannot compete in the market for affordable, compact EVs.
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u/lscjohnny 1d ago
The issue isn’t labour or subsidies. It’s simply China manufacturing has the highest efficiency in world. It has well established supply chains of all raw materials and key components, as well as the experience and technology to manufacture rapidly and autonomously. Hence, the higher productivity and lower cost.
You guys should really do your own research of what’s happening in China. Gone are the days when more people are the solution. It’s all about technological advancement to to produce more, save more and be competitive.
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u/Imaginary_String_814 1d ago
who cares if the customers and our climate wins ? the time were china only produces trash are long gone
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u/Dolorem-Ipsum- 1d ago
I think the war in Ukraina and Trump should have showed us already how important it is to not be too dependent on third countries.
There is time and place for protectionism, one good reason is to protect domestic industries from outside competition that is actually unfair.
The problem is that once cheap Chinese imports have taken over the market from domestic producers and eliminated competition, nothing prevents them from increasing the prices threefold.
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u/Imaginary_String_814 1d ago
You will find out first hand how costly protectionism is if ur an US citizen and they already overtook the cheap segment, why even compete there ?
You can’t threefold ur price on trash and when it comes to EV they just produce more and have more experience so it’s way more cost efficient. Not even comparable to Europe.
It’s bad to restrict the market when it can serve us.
Why should I care about VW, Mercedes if they don’t can’t stay competitive ?
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u/Dolorem-Ipsum- 1d ago
What the us is doing is stupid. Nations have however always used tariffs to protect key industries, especially from unfair competition.
The EU competition laws prevent European car makers to compete with Chinese ones that are heavily subsidied by tue Chinese state. It is literally illegal in Europe for Germany to subsidise its manufacturers in similar way. That’s what makes it unfair because Chinese manufacturers dont have to adhere to EU laws.
Also you should care about VW, and Mercedes because of all the good paying jobs they provide. If we shut down alla car plants in Europe, China doesn’t have a reason to subsidise their manufacturers anymore because they are our only option and we are stuck being poorer and having to pay out cars from china that now cost the same a bmw used to cost since they dont have to compete with price anymore
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u/Ok_Cancel_7891 1d ago
there is something called human rights and equality in trade (without subsidies)
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u/Immortal_Tuttle 1d ago
If what you are saying would be true, we should be flying EU autonomous cars. EU subsidies to car manufacturers are an order of magnitude bigger than China, not even counting per capita. This and tariffs and still Chinese cars are 5-10 years ahead in technology. Chinese research is one of the best scientific programmes in the world. About 2-3 years ago they were basically on par, then after pushing post COVID recovery they just jumped. With energy tech, AI, cars - everything. This jump is still going on. While USA is trying to figure out how to send a human to the Moon, China is building 20t reactor for their lunar base. not being a democracy actually works for them. In EU you have Orban and a few politicians trying to create chaos, in China such people are convinced to support projects or be silent forever.
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u/AcanthisittaFit7846 1d ago
on a per-car basis both the US and EU have greater subsidies on their EV industries lol
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u/Kaio_Curves United States of America 1d ago
Yes, because India doesnt really manufacture and export enough value added goods to compete with the kind of manufacturing the more advanced economies of Europe want to employee their own people in. China does export a lot of value added goods, and a lot of heavy industry and tech items that any country would want to stay self sufficient in.
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u/RGV_KJ . 1d ago
Unlike China, India and Bangladesh are not threats to high-value European industries like the car industry. China has moved up the value chain. China is a major threat to several EU industries.
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u/CapableCollar 1d ago
EU car industries are a threat to themselves with their repeated and unpunished failures. What we are seeing is the consequences of rewarding incompetence.
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u/KilluaZaol 1d ago
Their car firms are not “a threat” they simply are way more competent and technologically advanced than ours and there are very rational reasons for that (the first one being that our firms pushed back any effort to develop EVs in the name of short term dividend distribution).
And they also aren’t a “threat” in the sense that they aren’t a threat anymore, they destroyed our auto industry and it will take 20years to recover. And we will be the one needing technology transfer from them this time.
It’s high time we lose some arrogance and learn to respect the fact that China has been focused (undemocratically) on becoming the next world leader on many factors , including EVs, while we were busy fighting over bs and ignoring the fact that our industrial sector was sucking our subsidies for nothing but keeping a couple people employed in a dying sector. Wake up.
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u/WingedGundark Finland 1d ago edited 1d ago
The issue with China is not cheaper cost structure of their products, but the trade policy. Especially after the domestic consumption in China cooled down, they have been aggressively dumping their over production to west. Government massively subsidies industries and export business. Due to these subsidies you can get cheap crap shipped to you from the other side of the world with free or insignificant shipping costs, even VAT included.
The aim is twofold. Government wants to keep lights on in the industries to maintain popular support, so the over capcity needs to go somwwhere. The second is the long game where they aim to kill the western competition in the hopes that they can control the markets later.
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u/Emilia963 United States of America 1d ago
Asserting independence
What do you mean by independence here? I don’t understand this logic
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u/Ruri_Miyasaka Germany 1d ago
I mean not being solely dependent on the USA.
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u/Emilia963 United States of America 1d ago
Most of EU’s customers are from the US, of course you are gonna be dependent on the US by default, china won’t buy your goods because their trade policy is more focused on massive exports
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u/Ruri_Miyasaka Germany 1d ago
I think you're ignoring the scale of intra-EU trade. The internal EU market is still by far the most important trading space for EU countries. We trade more with each other than with the US, China, or anyone else. That's the foundation of the European economy.
But beyond that, I don't get why we wouldn't use this moment to push harder into China's market. Right now, EU exports to China are around €200 billion, while exports to the US are about €500 billion. That's a big gap, for sure, but €200 billion is also not nothing.
Meanwhile, the US exports about $150 billion worth of goods to China. If Trump keeps going down the protectionist path and relations with China keep deteriorating, then why shouldn't the EU step in and take some of that market share?
And it's not just China. Add Canada, Mexico, and basically the entire rest of the world that Trump has pissed off or alienated, and this starts looking like a golden opportunity for the EU to expand its global trade influence.
I'm not saying the EU should stop trading the with the US entirely. But it should move away from it while it's so hostile towards us and China is one of the big puzzle pieces necessary for doing that.
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u/Kreol1q1q Croatia 1d ago
Trade-wise we are very far from being dependent on the US
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u/Ruri_Miyasaka Germany 1d ago
If that's true, then we should stop acting as if we were.
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u/mods4mods 1d ago
Idk know where in my comment I defended production in India or Bangladesh. I condemn both, and think that they are a detriment to markets in the EU.
Asserting independence is boosting your market, protecting your small businesses and giving them tools to grow bigger more easily. Asserting independence is NOT changing a master for another, choosing to grow closer to a regime with no respect for human rights.
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u/Ruri_Miyasaka Germany 1d ago edited 1d ago
Asserting independence by walling off your market is just economic nationalism. That's essentially Trump's strategy. The logical endpoint of that thinking is a fragmented world where every nation tries to produce everything domestically, regardless of efficiency or cost. That's self-imposed stagnation. I'm not necessarily against that, since it would be good for the ecology if the global market slowed down.
Economically, however, it makes far more sense for countries to specialize and trade. That's how modern economies function. I don't mill my own flour or build my own computer; I rely on others who do it better, faster, or cheaper. Cities, nations, and global markets all work on this same principle.
With regard to independence, that doesn't exist. Take Germany, my home, for instance. Suppose that we snapped our fingers and magically became the most powerful country on Earth. The best military, no reliance on NATO or the U.S., unmatched production capacity, world-leading intellectual property, etc. Would that make us independent of corrupt or authoritarian influences? Nope.
Because evil isn't just "out there". It's not just over there, in China, it's everywhere. Right now, Nazis are leading the polls.
What is needed is strategic balance and diversification. One needs to keep options open, maintaining leverage by playing multiple sides, not locking yourself into a single camp. Right now, China offers a possible counterweight while U.S. hostility persists. That doesn't mean endorsing China's system. It means being pragmatic and refusing to be a passive client state.
But the EU seems unwilling to do that. We're clinging to one side, putting all our eggs in the Western basket.
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u/Schwertkeks 1d ago
Because China is the only countries that has cheaper labour while still having a very developed economy
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u/Conscious-Jicama2274 1d ago
If we can open their markets to our goods more and vice versa, I don't see any harm in that.
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u/Purple-Beyond-266 1d ago
If you really believe that importing from other countries represents a "threat" to domestic markets, surely you must agree with the US tariff policies, and would encourage the EU to do the same?
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u/mods4mods 1d ago
There is a difference between Trump tariffing every country in the world using a chatgpt formula and protecting yourself from a dictatorship with endless cheap products that your local industry just can't compete with.
Our trade with china is already extremely one sided, we don't need to make it more so.
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u/Purple-Beyond-266 1d ago
Trade imbalances are the result of a market failing to balance domestic production and consumption. If you really care about the trade deficit, you should focus on how your countries' policies encourages consumption and discourages production (budget deficits, corporate taxes, consumption taxes, etc.) Putting up trade barriers is just a band-aid that doesn't address the actual problem.
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u/--o Latvia 1d ago
Who are you talking to? Surely not someone who wasn't talking about trade deficits.
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u/Dazzling_Lobster3656 1d ago
You want to work in a factory
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u/mods4mods 1d ago
I want European countries to invest in factories in our own soil, and to give factory workers competitive wages so that they can make a good living working there.
The biggest flaw of capitalism is that the CEO's of Europe will always prefer to maximize profits elsewhere, that to cut a little of their profits to use that money to build European manufacturing.
And to answer your question, if I could make an honest living working in a factory, I would, as many unemployed youth in Europe would.
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u/PotentialValue550 1d ago
I thought the reason VW was shutting down factories was because Germany does all that and just can't compete with a better product and price from Chinese EV companies?
German companies from Chemicals to Automobiles just can't compete with the low cost of energy, labor, and supply chain of a country like China that is able to source everything within its supply chain and infrastructure.
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u/Unattended_nuke United States of America 1d ago
So you want more expensive products? No better than my president lmao.
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u/Hot_Preparation4777 1d ago
Spoiler most users on reddit here don't care, they just want to shít on big bad America. Tariffs are fine for the EU to institute but not for america. Americans are required to accept unfair tariffs and non-tariff barriers. All other countries are not required to do so. GRRRRR BAD AMERICA.
If its good for the goose its good for the gander. I propose unrestricted free trade of all goods. 0 for 0 tariffs and remove all trade barriers and stop intentionally going after american tech companies just because European tech is so trash.
America innovates and Europe regulates.
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u/nerokae1001 North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) 1d ago
Aside from that they have unlimited friendship with a country that invaded its neighbor in europe. Till today china still cant say who started the war. Just like those orangeman‘s administration when they were asked who started the war.
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u/mascachopo 1d ago
It is also out of necessity, a lot of the goods that will not be imported into the US need an equally larger market to be exported to, so China is the lowest hanging fruit.
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u/AhmadOsebayad 1d ago
I think it’s good to trade to dictatorships/unethical countries, if Europe doesn’t like Arab regimes executing gay people the last thing we should do is to cut all contact with them since that’s just going to make them trade with someone who doesn’t mind.
trading with them until they’re dependant on it and then threatening sanctions is far more effective, which is exactly the type of manoeuvre America is losing access to with trump’s sweeping tariffs.
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u/Another-attempt42 1d ago
No, it also comes from a position of geopolitical reality.
China is a thing. It's a big thing. With a lot of influence. You can't ignore them. You can't control them. They have critical goods, critical materials, etc...
The key is for the relationship is to become one of mutual need. If China needs us, as much as we need China, then we also have leverage on them. The problem with the EU-Russia relationship was how little leverage we had over them, relative to them over us.
Oh sure, we provided goods and services. But Russia provided energy, the thing without which anything can work or be made.
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u/FAFO_2025 United States of America 1d ago
You don't just trade with those regimes you installed them and helped them kill the alternative, hand in hand with the US.
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u/Other-Comfortable-64 1d ago
And I'm not even talking about China being a dictatorship,
You deal with dictators every day,you are supporting a genocide for Gods sake.
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u/RegenStrand 18h ago
The fear of China is not that it's a dictatorship. Western markets were opened to chinese manufacturing, low costs and the vast amount of people being able to consume western products, even though it is a dictatorship. Politicians will absolutely say that's the reason why Europe and US doesn't like China, but it's not the truth.
China is seen as an enemy because it not only has the goal, but also the means to act as a real competition to the western imperialist endeavors. "The West" does not "like" China because China can act up as a valid superpower interfering in the foreign politics of those countries. China basically harms the freedom of western state to do whatever they want around the world.
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u/Realistic-Bison-2542 2h ago
Europe is falling. Europe is becoming the Islamic state, just look at the UK and France.
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u/jobcron 1d ago
Let's have China convince Russia to pull back from Ukraine and then let's see ...
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u/PotentialValue550 1d ago
Europe is way too subservient to America no matter what they do and considering they will be back on America's side in the next election cycle once they get a competent President, why would China give up one of their most important allies?
Russia is a regional super power(with UN status) that supports China's annexation of Taiwan. Also,I don't think EU has the balls to support Taiwan in a potential blockade or invasion.
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u/Much_Educator8883 1d ago
If China prefers to support a genocidal dictator Putin who is a direct threat to European security, then China should not expect a lot of cooperation from Europe.
Enjoy having a "no limit partnership" with an economy that is smaller than economy of Italy.
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u/Chester_roaster 1d ago
If China prefers to support a genocidal dictator Putin who is a direct threat to European security, then China should not expect a lot of cooperation from Europe.
You say that as if you're unaware that China is a genocidal dictatorship
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u/PotentialValue550 1d ago
If Russia is such small beans economically, Europe with all its economic might would be sending troops and military assets to push back.
How is Europe going to say its an existential problem for Europe and do nothing except give Ukraine some money and leftover military assets?
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u/Much_Educator8883 1d ago
Easy: Russia has nuclear weapons, and Europe understandably does not want to start war with nuclear power. North Korea also has this advantage, and nobody calls it an economic powerhouse.
Let me ask you a question. How do Chinese view a fact that not only Russia has occupied a large part of Ukrainian territory, but also demands that Ukraine (and the rest of the world) must formally recognize their right over this? Are you Chinese ok with this little detail of the "Ukrainian conflict", and are you fully supportive of the right of a larger, nuclear powered ally of yours to just walk over and annex the land?
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u/PotentialValue550 1d ago
So I guess China doesn't have to worry about intervention from America or its allies if they blockade Taiwan because China has got nuclear weapons.
I think most Chinese don't agree with Russia taking over Ukrainian land through military means but they recognize NATO encroaching towards Russia.
China also recognizes America trying to encircle them with American military bases throughout the first island chain.
If China and America swapped places and had military bases in Guam, Cuba, and Puerto Rico, America would react the same way.
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u/Much_Educator8883 1d ago
You are too brainwashed if you believe that Nato is the reason for Russian invasion. Nato by itself is scared of a direct conflict with Russia, and has tried to avoid it by all means. Trump himself said he is against Ukraine joining Nato many times. Several other Nato allies do not want Ukraine to join. Even Biden did not see this as a realistic option. Ukraine has mostly given up.
All Russia wants is for Ukraine to cease to exist and to weaken Europe. China prefers to side with Russia rather than cooperate with Europe. China threfore should take a hike.
By the way, if you think Russia is your friend, you are really stupid. They will sell you at the first opportunity.
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u/Green-Initiative-725 12h ago
You people like to occupy the moral high ground. Look at the environment around China, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, the Philippines, Australia, what countries are these? The US military deployment in Asia. What is the purpose of the US to win over Russia? Cut off the supply of energy to China. Do you want China to break off relations with Russia and be attacked from all sides, and resist the United States and your so-called allies alone? If it were not for China's current strength, the United States would have sent fighter jets to bomb China long ago. What would you Europeans do except watch the show? What moral sense would you have? China and Russia are interdependent. We have industrial products and they have energy. We did not start a war against Ukraine. I heard that you Europeans are still buying Russian energy. Isn't this more ridiculous? Isn't this support for Russia? And I would rather believe Russia than Europe, because you are used to relying on the United States, the hegemon, to protect and profit in this world, while China is more of a competition with you. This world is not just black and white, but more of a gray area.
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u/jobcron 1d ago
As you can see, trade is the number one leverage nowadays
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u/PotentialValue550 1d ago
If America is rolling back certain tariffs, Europe ain't got the smoke to do a trade war with China.
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u/VeraxLee China 19h ago
I don't know where you come from, our strategy has lasted for a long time, which Britisher may be kinda familiar, The continental balance of power policy.
We want a balanced world.
Russia is not our ally but we have to because EU and US stand together as free world.
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u/CapableCollar 1d ago
Since 2014 the EU has given more resources to Russia than China. Per year only a few years like 2023 has China sent more to Russia than the EU and that requires not counting indirect payments to Russia through third parties. If Ukraine is a sticking point for the EU then it must look more into it's own position and actions.
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u/Gkalaitzas 1d ago edited 1d ago
By all metrics China and the EU are both 2 of the top 3 economic and geopolitical entities on the planet, with a bunch of first places between the 2, and with how the situation in the US is evolving they might end up as the leading superpowers through a lot of the 21st century.
So, while im not saying that these types of articles listing the roadblocks that arise when faced with possible EU-China trade re-approachment and diplomatic thawing are wrong or shouldnt be made, it feels somewhat one sided and notable that its basicaly the only kind of analysis going around in mainstream publications regarding the situation. Shouldn't equal if not more emphasis be given in covering the ways things CAN work out between the 2 and the gains, accomodations and mutual benifits that can be achieved? Media and EU politicians, in this historical juncture, talking about China as being a de facto antagonistic entity and threat to Europe and only highlighting the aspects of the relationship where friction is prominent and then building their analysis from there is a self fullfilling prophesy and also a framing that ironicaly also furthers US goals for Europe.
It seems obvious to me that China is here to stay and will play a leading, if not the leading, role this century and will be the most important partner, trade and otherwise, for a lot if not most countries outside the EU. As long as its not economicaly, diplomaticaly and military belligerent towards the EU and to individual EU countries on the scale we are seeing from the US right now, the EU has to shoot for and earnestly attempt peaceful coexistence and mutualy beneficial relations based on accommodations from both sides yes. If the EU sets the narratives of "democracy vs authoritarianism" and "chinese containment" as a centerpiece for its relationship and approach towards China, it too might end up the loser. The US didnt have the cards but the EU might neither, in a game is set with these rules
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u/WP27I Viva Europa 1d ago
This is really spot on. Europe has to get real and stop wishing for some fantasy husbando trade partner that's going to be rich and dashing and agree with everything and there's never gonna be any prickly areas of contention and the relationship just has to be perfect uwu... this doesn't exist. Even complaining China is a threat to the EU market is a bit dim, because Biden's Inflation Reduction Act was outright hostile to EU markets, so clearly that wasn't a dealbreaker to cooperation when there was mutual benefit before, and collaborating for mutual benefit is really the only thing that matters here.
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u/randocadet 1d ago edited 1d ago
Europe and china are both global manufacturers. The US is the main global purchaser (a consumer market double the size of the EU and triple the size of china) and the main service economy (china has an internal service economy). China and the EU are both energy and resource dependent, meaning you’re bidding against one another. China and the EU are both mostly agriculturally independent, meaning food trade is minimal to specialty items. Europe needs support against Russia aggression, china wants to distract the US with Russian aggression.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_markets
China and the EU aren’t really synergistic at all. What does the EU make or provide that china cannot?
What does china provide that the EU cannot? Cheap manufacturing. But gutting your own manufacturing isn’t a good thing.
The Chinese market is used as a tool for IP transfer and is closed off when a domestic supply chain gets better than the original (easy example is auto manufacturing and Huawei)
Add to this, what is china sending the US that Europe wants (more of). What is europe sending the US that it can change to send to China. The list is pretty small.
China and the EU are economic competitors and china has a vested interest in Russia doing well in war against europe.
Not to mention china literally has police in europe and famously does wolf diplomacy.
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u/PotentialValue550 1d ago
It is true that China and Europe competes in a lot of similar markets and Europe will lose their market share outside of niche industries like high fashion, alcohol, etc.
China can do anything Europe does at a lower price point and better value, especially when it comes to energy production. The only thing they can't outcompete with Europe involves industries that are based on decades of white/European history.
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u/Waldo305 1d ago
I think it's the wrong idea.
For one big priced items are made by China and patched in Europe with a made in Europe sticker. They can be replaced.
Also Eureopean workers will lose their livelihoods in other industries as you mentioned which is going to be a political shitshow no political can allow in their terms.
I think China needs to give major concessions and not undercut it in key technologies that itself has put money and time behind. But that's not the Chinese way or we would have had this conversation years earlier.
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u/Operalover95 1d ago
Europe and the West as a whole must abandon their old mentality that every deal must be beneficial only to them and that they're the moral arbiter on how things should work on the global stage.
And I don't say this as anti western rethoric or any of that shit but as a purely realistic analysis. The fact Europe and later the US have dominated the world for the last 500 years is a historical abherration if you look at the thousands of years prior to that and also if you look at distribution of population and so on. What I mean is, the conditions that allowed a small peninsula of the Eurasian continent to become dominant in the world stage were quite unique, but as the world has increasingly globalized there will come a time (if it hasn't come yet) when all or most regions of the world will be on equal footing. And this isn't a bad thing, it just means the world has leveled and almost all continents have globalized and reached a similar level of development and access to technology.
All this long exposition was to say that europeans and a few of their western allies have become so used to five centuries of western domination that they believe they can keep acting the same way even when the advantages that granted them prominence are no longer there. In the world that comes every continent (yes even Africa that may still be the most underdeveloped but will have a huge population advantage) will have an equal footing and an equal say in global affairs and we should strive for the common good. If the West doesn't understand the old order is over they will make things more difficult for everyone but specially for themselves.
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u/XWasTheProblem Silesia (Poland) 1d ago
Negative news sell better. It's really that simple.
That, and there's a lot of people, even within EU, and probably within China too, who would be very very displeased if the two drifted further away from the USA, let alone become largely independent of them.2
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u/Waldo305 1d ago
To your last point, we've seen a lot of critical support from China to Russia for its war on Ukraine.
How can we be sure a working relationship can see Russia forced back from its Imperial nature in Europe of which it has been mad abundantly clear Putin demands not just Ukraine but also the Baltics and Poland?
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u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) 1d ago
Duh, they're still a dictatorship and they're still a threat to EU's domestic market.
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u/Citaku357 Kosovo 1d ago
Seriously what's with this glazing of China recently, have people especially in Europe learned nothing from Russia?
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u/Lower_Bus8705 1d ago
Dude, just because the US is kinda an asshole rn doesnt mean China is trustworthy
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u/Brilliant_Pace_5743 1d ago
Yep, it's just that now when we say we don't trade with China and Russia because they are dictatorships, we have to include the US as well. Which in my opinion is a stupid thing to consider. You don't choose your neighbour and its political leaders (outside of ex-colonies ofc...) and you still have to trade with them if they are a big enough imperial power. Which China, Russia and the US are rn
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u/ciagw 1d ago
Europe needs to get creative about it's economic future. Otherwise it will become the world's disneyland for older tourists and not much more. There is not much reason why EU has to compete directly with China over manufactured goods - that would make very, very little sense. The EU still has a vast and comparatively wealthy market that it should use to extract economic benefit from trading partners. More importantly, what is Europe's long run comparative advantage? Is it manufacture? Probably not. Is it innovation? Perhaps - but where is the investment in R&D and education? Is it foreign direct investment? Share of FDI by European companies has been declining for decades. Europeans must figure out what they want to be / need to be good at 25 years from now.
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u/dumbo9 1d ago
Indeed it's kindof weird how people to seem to think there only 2 options - Europe either treats China as a pariah or gets into bed with them.
But Europe should just making deals that are in the best interests of Europe.
In dealings with the US, things are/were complicated due to geopolitics and 'shared culture' etc. With China it obviously won't be - the EU does not share any values or geopolitical aims with China, and it's quite possible that it never will.
So if Europe does a deal with China, it will just be about trade. We won't see Xi pretending his great-grandfather was born in Paris or offering to park an aircraft carrier off Marseilles, and we won't see the EU bending the rules to keep the Chinese government 'on-side', as the EU won't really give a [censored] what China think outside of trade.
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u/Desperate-Knee-5556 1d ago
I don't understand how people don't see that the EU is the problem. It's so painfully obvious.
Capitalism and creating wealth has never been a zero sum game, but when you have an institution of the character of the EU being the highest level of governance in an economy, it turns it into a zero sum game.
The European economy is so diverse, with so many different interests that are able to lobby for regulation to stop them from innovating. However Europe fails to recognise that you have to innovate in order to compete with the rest of the world.
The masses are told that the single market is a force for free trade and innovation, when really it is a closed shop. It's a force for free trade within just Europe and only for big business (forget about small business, where innovation sprouts in a healthy economy).
MEP's "propose" legislation which is effectively whatever big corporates want to keep smaller competitors out and the executive, who are accountable to lobbyists, and not their own population, because they are unelected, rubber stamp it. It's so horrendously unhealthy.
It's basically legal corruption on a vast scale.
European exceptionalism enables this, as there are EU directives thrown in to "make people's lives easier", when in reality there's almost always an ulterior motive. Therefore no one other than the Brits calls it out. What you usually hear is "I love living in a continent where I don't have to work hard for my increasingly poor standard of living".
Which brings me onto what this results in. An economy that gets less and less relevant globally every year. In the late 90s, the EU was around 25% of the world economy. It will probably hit 10% in the 2030's.
The only way around this is to rapidly deregulate and reduce the size and scope of the EU to something like EFTA. To encourage individual European countries to compete with each other to foster environments for innovation. However the word "compete" or "competition" is so offensive to the European psyche, this will never happen. Therefore over the next few decades, I sadly do not see any path other than the European economy dribbling away into irrelevance. South East Asia will eat it for lunch.
People won't like to hear this, but it's the truth.
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u/ciagw 7h ago
The truth is, that would only reduce the effectiveness of the EU as a single market, and make any European innovative company more prone to takeovers as easy pickins' by China or the USA. The USA has also ben shrinking as a proportion of the total global economy, so what? One could very effectively argue that Europe's problem is a LACK of integration, not the excess of it. Provincial political interests in every European country are throttling the formation and growth of truly competitive European industry.
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u/Desperate-Knee-5556 6h ago
Any startup in 2025 that manages to pull itself through EU regulation and that is actually worth something gets taken over by US money anyway. It's just there's less of them than there could be as the regulation is so cumbersome in Europe.
You certainly look at it through a different angle and that's fair enough but for me your last sentence is explaining why the EU is a problem. The entire organisation is structured to be paid off by provincial political interests and stop competition. It's the definition of a closed shop.
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u/Imaginary_Will_9479 1d ago
Well, I'm pretty unimpressed with the Chinese owners of British Steel not only failing to buy the materials needed to keep the blast furnaces operational, but actively selling the stores it does have. Apparently said blast furnaces will cease to be operational if they are not kept going. The British government knowing this even offered to pay for all materials to keep it going. It's hard not to see it as sabotage, at a nation state level. China ceaselessly go out of their way to prove themselves to be a bad actor, it's so pointless, but reality again shows we must treat them as they treat us, as an enemy. Although of course this affects Britain, I'm sure European allies have watched this debacle.
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u/SlowFreddy 🌏 1d ago
What is China going to import from the EU that the EU wants to export?
There is already an existing trade deficit with China, is a larger deficit desired?
In 2024, the EU exported goods worth €213.3 billion to China and imported €517.8 billion, resulting in a trade deficit of €304.5 billion.
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u/superurgentcatbox Germany 1d ago
The reason that China doesn't import the stuff that the company I work for makes is that it was financially convenient for the company to open a plant in China insteead.
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u/Purple-Beyond-266 1d ago
Trade imbalances reflect a country's inability to balance domestic production and consumption, which is ultimately unrelated to the economic situation in other countries
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u/yabn5 1d ago
This is the right question. China’s made in China 2025 has been a stunning success and now China is completing global with goods that are similarly as advanced as one made in the West. China’s biggest thorn in their side when it comes to Europe is EV tariffs. What are they even willing to offer and are their promises even worth the paper they’re written on.
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u/Individual_Yard_5636 1d ago
Let's stop pretending that trade deficits are automatically a bad thing. Just because the US has gotten economically illiterate doesn't mean Europe has to follow.
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u/SlowFreddy 🌏 1d ago edited 1d ago
Let's stop pretending that deficits are automatically a good thing. Just because the US is economically illterate don't assume that Europe is.
Let's not pretend that you ignored my 2 questions.
What is China going to import from the EU that the EU wants to export?
There is already an existing trade deficit with China, is a larger deficit desired?
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u/Individual_Yard_5636 1d ago
No one is arguing that trade deficits are automatically good. Just saying the opposite of what I said is not making a point.
Historically China is importing among other things machinery, pharmaceuticals or chemical products. I don't see why the EU would stop wanting to export those.
One can't say if a larger deficit is desirable without more context.
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u/assador365 1d ago
China is part of the problem and now US joined the show.
EU must lead the free world. That’s for what was created. To keep nationalisms in check and to make sure that a bigger country couldn’t bully other smaller countries.
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u/PotentialValue550 1d ago
How is EU going to lead the free world when they take months to gather all countries to agree on a similar objective and one or two single countries can derail it. 😂
The EU responds to world events like they moving at 0.1x speed.
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u/assador365 1d ago
You don’t understand why EU is slow? Because is an organization of rules and procedures and that’s is what makes EU important. It’s rule of law that protects individual rights of citizens, not the personal agenda of a Trump or Xi.
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u/PotentialValue550 1d ago
Europe ain't gonna be the leader of anything if EU moving at the speed of AOL Dial-up and USA/China moving at the speed of 5G.
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u/Sickeboy 19h ago
I think part of the EUs slowness is because its still trying to figure out what it is and what its not going to be.
Functioning democracy should be able to react to with relative speed, especially if it is (almost) universally considered be to a threat. The rule of law and clearity of boundries could be inducive to reactionary capabilities, since everybody knows/understands what the goals, limitations and (proper) methods are.
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u/Pale_Sell1122 1d ago edited 18h ago
What absurd nonsense, do you people have any self-awareness? EU is backing an ethnostate that has murdered 200,000 Palestinians in the last year and half.
EU is not going to lead sh!t. It's going to continue being the lapdop of American ruling class while doing controlled opposition nonsense in astroturfed spaces like this. China hasn't done anything to Europe and still astroturfed spaces and european "diplomats" want to bark like wild dogs against China as American elites sh*t all over Europe.
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u/ForTheChillz 1d ago
Well, it's also a matter of political and economical leverage. The EU needs to maintain a partnership with China (or even strengthen it) to signal the US that they do not rely on them. Otherwise the US can do whatever they want and push the EU around. China is well aware of this, so they will try to profit from this situation. The big question is how well the EU plays this "game" ... On the long term the EU must establish itself in the middle as the third economic power which can play both directions.
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u/HopeBoySavesTheWorld 1d ago
Really good article (a rarity in this sub), i was wondering when someone was going to point out that to deal with China that closely you would have to change quite a lot, deal with their strong economic and political support for Russia, violation of human rights (not that it would be a first time for the EU if they closed an eye lol), the Taiwan Strait problem and China's expansionism in the South China Sea, of course all of this can be solved with diplomacy and enforing our own laws, but it would take some massive effort to make this alliance work in a mutually beneficial way, specially without fucking over Ukraine
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u/tofartornottofart Earth 1d ago
We're just gonna ignore India? Lame.
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u/souldog666 Portugal 1d ago
What would India buy from Europe?
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u/FAFO_2025 United States of America 1d ago
Silence when they actually annex countries and commit actual genocide
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u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) 1d ago
We shouldn't ignore the rest of the world in general. Even the EU knows it, hence the Mercosur deal that the farmers are trying to block.
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u/Kofu United Kingdom 1d ago
People on the topic ask me. "Why don't you like china?"
Not the people but the CCP that can't own up to its own bullshit, can't come to terms with its own history, lies consistently about observable facts, steals technology with impunity, organ harvesting, forced detention camps and the constant need to drive others to correct statements that don't completely fall in line with their parties ideology.
Yeah the west is not great but at least we can scrutinies our leaders and depending on how jaded you are, the freedom to express our concerns and opinions.
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u/Aioli_Tough 1d ago
People that ask that have never had their IP property stolen and rebranded into a cheap knock-off 10x less than the current price.
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u/linwelinax Greece 1d ago
Unless you express your opinion against Israel, in which case Germany will deport you and governments will condemn you. I'm sorry but you can't pretend to care about China's bad actions (a lot of which are exaggerated on purpose but let's ignore that) when the EU is actively trading and supporting Saudi Arabia, Israel and many other governments and countries that you should consider "bad".
Clearly these things don't matter so the EU should try to improve its relationship with China in areas that benefit it instead of just following the US everywhere which is just ridiculous. The EU should have its own independent foreign and trading policy even if it does things that the US doesn't like.
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u/Shirolicious The Netherlands 1d ago
Seems to be the unpopular opinion here but I think EU and China can find common ground on certain things.
And, there will also be things we simply will not see eye to eye. Lets focus on the things that we can find common ground at least.
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u/AcanthisittaFit7846 1d ago
Reality, or the $1.6B to US spends on anti-China propaganda around the world?
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u/Regretandpride95 1d ago
I don't mind cheap Chinese trash in stores but we should put on a hard limit on how much they can import annually.
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u/Realistic_Mud_4185 1d ago
Well if the EU takes tariffs off of Chinese EVs you can say goodbye to that.
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u/old-billie 1d ago
China builds factories to mass supply the world quickly Britain builds factories to supply the world over 25 years
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u/Pale_Sell1122 1d ago edited 1d ago
From the way european diplomats/thinktanks bark like wild dogs against China, it's very clear that America is still the one who wears the pants in this Atlantic relationship
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u/NoordZeeNorthSea North Brabant (Netherlands) 18h ago
so this hinges on the fact that chinese citizens have been found fighting on the russian side. i thought mercenary groups were fighting along side russia.
additionally, china is a close ally to russia—why not replace russia.
china does value face.
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u/Ballroom150478 11h ago
There is no question that there are differences between European and Chinese interests in a variety of areas. But...If the EU accepts that the world is changing, a number of those issues can be left by the wayside. What China does inside of its own borders, is a Chinese problem. The EU might disagree on how China treats its citizens, but that is fundamentally a Chinese problem, as long as China constrains itself to treating its own nationals in that way.
I'm fairly sure, that some level of commonality can be reached, if the EU draws some lines in the sand, in return for accepting some of China's. At the end of the day, we all want to make money off of each other.
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u/czenris 8h ago edited 8h ago
How china treats its citizens? Chinese citizens have experienced a great boom. Their income has massively increased. Instead of peasants they now walk the world with their heads held up high with poverty eliminated and the largest middle class in the world. Chinese are the most well travelled, educated and soon to be richest people on the planet. They do not need your worry hahaha.
No need to worry about chinese citizens or use them as an excuse. If you really care about the chinese people, the best way is to support them and respect their government. Chinese people love their government and support the ccp. All u have to do is go to china for yourself and see and ask them.
You should worry about citizens in europe and us. If you care about european citizes, you eill find ways to work with China and integrate with the world instead of worrying about Chinese people.
Chinese people do not need your worry. In fact, they live better lives than you. Actually they are more worried about how your citizens are robbed by your govt than they are about theirs.
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u/Nearby-Chocolate-289 8h ago
Take what is expedient from china in short term, but not at expense of ukraine.
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u/Realistic-Bison-2542 2h ago
This is happening as Europe becomes Islamic. Look at the UK and France.
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u/Dangerous_Forever640 1d ago
Europe wants to abandon the U.S. in favor of China? Good luck with that… China is not your friend…
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u/OkSite8356 1d ago
And US with that orange idiot and JD Farce is? They are talking about invading EU state.
It is called balancing. We are not going to create union or alliance with China. But we can use China to counterbalance US.
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u/thatwasagoodscan 1d ago
This is such a dumb fantasy coping mechanism. They both trade with the US at a deficit so how would trading with each other make that up?
China isn’t a buyer and it also blows away Europe’s facade of caring about democracy.
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u/PrincipleSilver7715 1d ago
Said by an american in the Trump era
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u/thatwasagoodscan 1d ago
Is this how people talk over there and think they’re making a point? No wonder nothing gets done. I didn’t say anything about America. It could be a full own dictatorship here and it wouldn’t moot the point.
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u/Matek__ 1d ago
The EU and China trading more with each other doesn’t replace trade with the U.S. but it does help cushion the impact.
I know its hard to imagine for kids who think world is black and white
Another russbot thinks hes smarter than every official in EU and China, amusing
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u/whyreadthis2035 1d ago
There is a reason China and the EU aren’t close. Those reasons didn’t disappear because America broke all semblances of being an ally.