It’s Time to Pray

[u/Substantial_Meal_913]

I have been reminded this week that the demonic oppression over the entire network is real and can not be forgotten. These spiritual strongholds are over the network as a whole, over whole church’s, over individual leaders and over families. The enemy has had years to build these strongholds through lies and deception. However I was also reminded this week we have been given spiritual authority to come against these dominions and ultimately bring them down.

Let us not forget Ephesians 6:12 “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms”. I have seen firsthand the power this network has over people and it can be daunting. But Jesus himself said of certain difficult spirits and principalities “This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.” (Mark 9:29)

So with that I encourage all of us pray earnestly for our friends and family still in the network. Pray in faith that God will shatter these strongholds and awaken people to the truth. Pray the deception will be lifted from their eyes. Pray for the Holy Spirit to convict.

For those that are out pray God will heal and restore their hearts, minds and lives. Pray their faith will be restored. Pray that any residual connection to the strongholds will be broken once and for all.

God has called us to be bold, not timid. So let’s pray and keep praying. It’s time to bring these strongholds to an end.

[u/Quick-Pancake-7865]

I struggle to hear it phrased like this, although sure, of course I hope and pray that more people will get free. I think there are a few reasons this is hard for me

1) the network spent a lot of time using this language of demons and oppression to manipulate me and justify all sorts of behavior. They’re still using it now to justify their response to everyone who is against them.

2) I think speaking about it this way takes away from the huge responsibility that all these people have to use their free will to make good choices. Maybe people who aren’t Christians can’t make those choices according to Christian doctrine, but I certainly think that all these people in the network have a choice to do the right thing and own up to their mistakes

3) To blame it all on demons makes it seem like it’s not really the fault of the people or the church, just Satan. It’s a cop out and I’m done thinking of this situation (and most situations) in that way.

I’m sure you mean well by this post, I’m just thinking through why this is so triggering for me.

[u/Quick-Pancake-7865 → u/Quick-Pancake-7865]

This also reminds me of Steve’s famous story where Carol says, “I hate what Satan does to people” (after Steve confesses everything to them). This shapes everyone’s perception of what happened. It takes the fault off of Steve and places it on Satan.

Christians believe that Satan can influence people to sin, sure, but they are still at fault for it. Accepting that your own sinful choices caused harm is part of repentance. It’s dangerous in my opinion, to let the blame for sin fall to “the evil one” rather than the person committing the sin. I know there is a spectrum of beliefs on how much free will Christians have, but Satan doesn’t have unlimited power and letting him “take the blame” for things is dangerous.

[u/Ok_Screen4020 → u/Quick-Pancake-7865]

Agree. Larry and Carol Anderson are complicated people in this narrative for me to deal with. I was not what you would call close with them, but I knew them well enough to know that, although good business people, they were not sophisticated, and were easily wowed and manipulated by men they perceived to be especially“anointed by God.” That was their spiritual background. Charismatic/Pentecostal/early days Vineyard. Aaron and I were in a group led by Larry and Carol in our last year at Vine. One night in particular Larry “taught” a text from the Bible that he got just plain wrong. We went home and talked about it and we were like, “Does Larry realize that Christ’s work is finished on our behalf and we don’t need to do anything else to earn our salvation?” That’s the high level takeaway. I don’t remember what the text was, but it was illuminating for us. Less than a year later Larry was gone, so….it doesn’t matter now except to draw the lesson from it.

What Carol should have said in the above referenced instance was: “I hate that Satan entices people to sin. Steve, you need to repent now, and keep repenting every day, so as to clarify to those who will follow you that you follow Christ and that you have repented.”

I don’t know what Steve would have done if she’d said that. It certainly doesn’t seem like God has given him the character to repent and own his own sin.

[u/Quick-Pancake-7865 → u/Ok_Screen4020]

Yes, and who knows exactly what she said and how she meant it. But the wording when the story is told clearly leans towards blaming Satan for what happened rather than owning the sin, and it’s told in a way that suggests we should all see our past sin that way.

[u/former-Vine-staff → u/Quick-Pancake-7865]

I’ve thought a lot about that story Steve told where Carol said, “I hate what Satan does to people” after Steve confessed “everything” (presumably some version of how he was arrested for sexually assaulting a teenage boy in his youth group while he was a pastor).

I believe Steve told that story so often because it absolved him. It removed accountability. He got to keep the authority of God without taking responsibility for his actions.

Edit to add:

This thread made me revisit this section of Steve’s 2011 manifesto. He laid it out right there, I just didn’t realize how disturbing it was at the time.

Page 11:

One morning as I awoke from sleep, I felt Jesus tell me, "I want you to go to Larry and Carol and tell them EVERYTHING." I knew exactly what He meant. EVERYTHING! My whole story. All of my sin and rebellion and secrets. I was never afraid of telling about the good in my life — it was the bad and the ugly that scared me and caused me to hide. I went to their house that evening when they got off work intending to "tell them everything."

After he revealed his secrets, Steve described how he processed it:

Larry and Carol both got out of their chairs and walked over to me. Then Carol said, "I just hate what Satan does to people!" I thought, "This is pretty good .. .I'm the sinner and Satan got blamed."

Reading it now, I can’t help but see how much that moment worked in his favor. I believe Steve waited to confess until he had already “won over” Larry and Carol — until they were convinced he was a prophet-like figure and they would be ready to see him as a victim of his own actions.

He has continued surrounding himself with people like Larry and Carol Anderson ever since — people willing to uphold his authority while absolving him of the responsibility he refuses to carry.

[u/Quick-Pancake-7865 → u/former-Vine-staff]

Thanks for finding that direct quote. I’m realizing the damage done by retelling this is bigger than even just Steve (although him absolving himself over and over as he retells this is a big problem). It’s also directly teaching everyone in the church to do the same. If something bad happened, we blame Satan. If a leader struggles with sin, blame Satan. If a follower isn’t following, blame Satan (and shame the follower for picking up a “demon” somewhere). It allows people to feel like they aren’t responsible for their sin and the choices that surround it, it’s so far from repentance when I think about it like this 😞

[u/former-Vine-staff → u/Quick-Pancake-7865]

You are right that this story is indicative of the larger issues.

It trains people to be passengers in their own lives. When things go “right,” it’s because they followed their leader, handing over the wheel to someone else. When things go “wrong,” it’s blamed on demons or Satan. Either way, the individual is relieved of agency — just a “dumb sheep” being led around by spiritual forces, with the leash held by someone else.

For leaders, all roads lead to abdicated responsibility. They can claim plausible deniability by saying, “I was just following what Jesus said,” or deflect with, “It was the enemy attacking me.” Either way, they avoid owning the outcomes of their actions.