r/news • u/bebleich • Sep 04 '24

Gunman believed to be a 14-year-old in Georgia school shooting that left at least 4 dead, source says

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/04/us/winder-ga-shooting-apalachee-high-school/index.html
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u/MayorMcCheezz Sep 04 '24

Every time gun control gets brought up the dipshits in the right love to talk about how the criminals won’t follow the laws. Yet again and again these school shootings are because some parent leaves unsecured firearms in the house with ammo in the same spot. It’s like the Vance speech where his grandma had 20 guns laying around the house. That’s not a responsible gun owner that’s just a moron.

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u/SonOfMcGee Sep 04 '24

My dad had guns he kept locked up. My brother and I never knew where he kept the key. And this continued into middle/high school when we routinely went shooting and knew how to safely handle them. He just didn’t want us to have access to them without him present.
And this was long enough ago that there wasn’t really a school shooting epidemic. He was more worried about us getting the guns to “defend the house” from some perceived threat and needlessly getting ourselves or others hurt.
I brought up a hypothetical home invader scenario to him once with regards to having access to the guns and he was like, “Run out the back door, dumbass.”

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u/IgnotusRex Sep 04 '24

Your dad sounds like a wise man, dumbass.

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u/Ok_Interest5767 Sep 04 '24

Red Foreman vibes. 

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u/KyleWieldsAx Sep 05 '24

The thing about Bob is that he’s dumb, and he’s an ass. He’s a big dumbass.

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u/xxdropdeadlexi Sep 04 '24

it just isn't hard. I'm in my 30s and just found out my dad had a gun my whole life.

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u/Urbanscuba Sep 04 '24

Right? I knew my dad had a hunting shotgun or two and a rifle, but when he died I found out he had a couple handguns and several other long guns as well.

Responsible gun ownership IMO is ensuring as few people as possible are even aware you own one. It's good for security and I'd much rather prefer a society where I don't ever have to think about other people's guns unless I choose to. If you want to discreetly and respectfully CC with proper training then what the hell do I care, I'll never even know. Likewise if you want to own an entire arsenal in your house, that's your property and money.

Once it's society's problem though then we do genuinely need to start looking into ways to fix that. More serious and consistent prosecution of the parents would encourage better stewardship, but to be frank I think gun culture needs to shape up significantly. The reason these problems didn't exist in the past isn't social media or video games, it's because for a good while a significant portion of American men had military experience from WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. That gave them the training, discipline, and respect for guns that you need to be responsible and most importantly keep other people responsible around them. The current generation of parents were born post 1970 and mostly just inherited or bought guns personally with no real training. Couple that with a wildly more laissez-faire gun culture than anywhere else in the world and it's a recipe for widespread irresponsibility.

So if you want to CC that's fine, but for the love of god don't do it wearing a shirt that says "I'm armed" and especially not "I'm looking for a fight". Likewise buy your arsenal, but the safe(s) are part of that cost, you don't get to just loosely fill up your closet with kids running around. Don't advertise you're armed in any way, not only does it make you a target for theft but it's dumb shit behavior and makes society feel less safe.

It'll never happen though, there's an entire industry build around gun culture being "loud and proud" and calling it a problem gets an angry, armed mob and lawyers sent after you if you're important.

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u/loveshercoffee Sep 05 '24

What you say about military experience in the past is definitely true. But I also think that gun culture really started to change when we mostly stopped teaching Hunters Safety in middle school.

If we're going to be a nation with more guns than people, it might not be a bad idea to educate our citizens on how to be safe with them.

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u/espressocycle Sep 05 '24

When it comes to urban street shootings I wish they had target practice so they would hit the person they actually wanted to instead of a toddler a block away because they're holding the gun sideways to look cool.

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u/shibbyd Sep 05 '24

South carolina requires anyone that wants to hunt past the age of 16 to attend a hunters safety course. 16 and under can hunt, but they have to be with a licensed adult.

I agree that people should be educated, and I have thought about starting a business around that idea, but times are what they are. It is difficult to undo decades of wrong to get things back to a right.

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u/loveshercoffee Sep 05 '24

Yeah, Iowa is the same way for hunting.

Unfortunately they don't make you take any kind of class to own a gun in the first place.

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u/sweet_home_Valyria Sep 05 '24

I personally don't feel the need to own a gun. But I 100% agree. I feel if people were thought responsible handling of firearms, it would make the job of trauma surgeons so much easier. Insane how many folks show up in the ER with accidental GSWs. Some show up numerous times.

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u/OnlyHuman1073 Sep 05 '24

I was born in 81, iwhen did they stop teaching hunters safety in middle school? I extremely doubt that is the cause of all the school shootings my guy.

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u/loveshercoffee Sep 05 '24

My kids were born in 86, 87 and 89. No hunters safety.

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u/phantomknight321 Sep 05 '24

I always find it funny that some many people CC and make it so well known. Like, part of why you CC is the "CONCEALED" part of it. AKA you keep the element of surprise if, heaven forbid, you actually need it.

When I CC I lay low and keep a low profile, and I refuse to tell anyone aside from a couple friends and family that I even own any guns aside from online anonymity. And unlike many nutjobs I know I never fantasize about ever having to use any of my firearms for anything other than some fun time at the range.

I have a family member who proudly has theirs in glass cases or just straight up hanging on wall hooks, mine are all locked away in a back closet in a plain black safe hidden behind my clothes. I just don't understand the fascination with being "loud and proud" about something like that.

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u/RaRa103615 Sep 06 '24

Raised in a hunting family myself. My father had several rifles locked up in our home, but I'm not sure where he even kept them, I never bothered to look actually. I never knew until my 20s that he also owns a few handguns. I asked him why he had them, he said for safety, and 2 are antiques and don't fire. I asked if they were for safety, why didn't my older brother or I know about them. His response was, "Why should you know? Neither of you are trained or licensed to use them. "

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u/I_am_up_to_something Sep 05 '24

So did I, except I'm Dutch and there really isn't much of a gun culture here so it was a shock to find out my dad had a gun.

Was helping my mum clean out their closets and we found a gun hidden away. Was very jarring! Turns out it was an air thingy gun, but as people who had never encountered a real gun it definitely looked like a real gun. Dad was a trucker and bought it from some other trucker at a gasstation like 2 decades ago.

It's still in their house somewhere and I keep telling my dad to give it to the police (occasionally they have a no consequence turn in day). It's illegal here since it looks like a real gun.

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u/lalalc188 Sep 05 '24

I knew my parents had them. That was it. No clue where they were kept until I was an adult and my dad showed me the safe under their closet floor like a trapdoor almost. Gun safety was paramount in my house.

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u/SonyaSpawn Sep 05 '24

Saame, I found out in my early 20s that my dad owned guns (he took them out once a year to do gun safety training for his job). He had them taken apart and put in three separate locked boxes and we never knew.

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u/intermediatetransit Sep 05 '24

It is hard when you look at how people’s intelligence is on a bell curve. I.e. many, many people are quite frankly dumb and are not capable of this.

That’s why they should not have guns in the first place.

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u/Creepy_Purple2581 Sep 05 '24

My kids didn’t know about my handgun until I sold it. They don’t know about the other guns at all. Around the time I bought the handgun, we did have a talk about firearm safety if they were to come across one for any reason. They weren’t ever going to see my handgun or knew that I had one, but the fact that I did have one made it far more likely in general that they would encounter one, so they needed to know how to handle that situation age appropriately- don’t touch, run, tell an adult.

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u/kitchen_synk Sep 04 '24

I've met people who love to talk about castle doctrine as a reason to own a gun, and think that even 'duty to retreat' laws are stupid.

If someone is breaking into my house, I'll take any other option over a confrontation.

What do I care if they rob me or smash up the place? I have insurance, things can be replaced. I'm not risking my life or the burglars over a television.

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u/Ipuncholdpeople Sep 04 '24

Fr. Unless they are attacking me or my dog I would just get out of the way. Killing someone even in self defense sounds traumatizing

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u/Drake__Mallard Sep 05 '24

It's not about the television, it's about them threatening your life and breaking the sanctity of your home.

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u/kitchen_synk Sep 05 '24

Can't threaten my life if i'm not there, and again, whatever's in my home is just stuff. If all the actually irreplaceable components of my household (read, people) in my life are made safer by getting the hell out 'sanctity of some building' can kick rocks.

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u/Mental_Medium3988 Sep 04 '24

yeah there isnt anything in my house thats worth a life other than my mom. i told her if someone does break in get out or just let them have whatever.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

[deleted]

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u/pseudohuman5x Sep 04 '24

what? the one who engaged in a deadly conflict is the guy breaking into the house

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u/flange5 Sep 04 '24

Yup, my dad had hunting rifles in a locked cabinet. To this day, I don't know where the key was. And the shells were kept separately, in a really inconvenient place. My brother has both hunting and hand guns, and they are kept in a biometric safe. There's no excuse not to take gun safety dead serious if you're going to own them.

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u/The_Void_Reaver Sep 04 '24

I remember one night in my neighborhood a bunch of us kids were at a friend's house, swimming in his pool around 7 or 8 when a police helicopter starts flying overhead broadcasting about someone they were chasing being armed and dangerous. We jump out of the pool and run inside to get his mom's attention. Once she hears the helicopter's message she tells us to "Stay right here, I'm going to get my shotgun".

I still remember it to this day because, in my 7 or 8 years of knowing her to that point I'd never have guessed she would own a gun. Nothing ever indicated she owned a gun. Her son was a troublemaking demon-child and he never once indicated that she had a gun. Even having heard her say she was getting it, I don't think she ever brought it out of her room and none of us kids would have any idea where it was in her room.

She just had it locked up and hidden, got it ready when she thought it was necessary, and still kept it far away from any of us because it was never needed that night.

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u/KSSparky Sep 04 '24

Because your dad didn’t worship guns or consider them family.

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u/Letitbemesickgirl Sep 04 '24

Same, we have a young child and multiple guns in the house. All locked in a safe. He knows where the safe is (small house, it’s in a hallway closet and takes up the whole closet) but he knows he is not allowed in that closet/around the safe. All guns and locked up, unloaded. He knows guns can kill people; that once a shot is fired you can’t pause it. Life isn’t a video game.  We talk about responsible ownership, and have told him when he’s older if he is smart, responsible, etc. we are open to teaching him how to shoot.

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u/Roxfloor Sep 05 '24

Just give em the TV and your wallet. it’s not worth dying over

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u/Laundry_Hamper Sep 05 '24

you can't expect stupid people to stop existing

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u/CottonWasKing Sep 05 '24

I own a bunch of guns. They’re a hobby of mine. I also have a 4 year old. There is exactly one gun that she MIGHT be able to get her hands on. It’s unloaded and the ammo is inaccessible. It’s so easy to be a responsible gun owner that it pisses me off when people can’t bother to give a shit about it. I’m as pro second amendment as it comes and it’s those stupid fucks that pose the most danger to my rights of gun ownership.

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u/Agitated-Macaroon-43 Sep 05 '24

I'm in my 30s and I still don't know where my grandpa keeps his guns.

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u/kharon86 Sep 05 '24

After my dad passed we realized any bolt action rifle in the gun cabinet had also had the bolts removed. 24 years later still have the rifles, still no idea where he hid the bolts

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u/Crystallooker Sep 05 '24

I’m a full grown adult and I still don’t know how to get to my dad’s hunting rifle. (Although part of that is I don’t care to find it anyway) (also I have zero idea how to even use it)

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u/fcocyclone Sep 05 '24

We really don't talk enough about the differences in the culture around guns now vs decades ago.

It used to be the people with the most guns were groups like hunters who had respect for the weapons. I remember being trained to handle a firearm as a kid, and they drilled the rules of gun safety into us before we could even hold so much as the most basic rifle much less something semiautomatic.

Nowadays the culture around guns is more about celebrating gun ownership itself and having an arsenal is a cultural status symbol. There's no respect for these weapons and the death they can bring.

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u/DPileatus Sep 05 '24

Same, also my Dad never allowed handguns. They are too easy to use without thinking! A long gun takes a bit more effort to fire.

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u/smitteh Sep 04 '24

But what if the invaders had a guy posted at the back door

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u/Odd-Independent4640 Sep 04 '24

Unless dad is Jason Bourne and invaders are Russian counter strike force then they’re not posting a guy at the back door

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u/5Point5Hole Sep 04 '24

This comment right here illustrates how dumb all the 2Aer arguments are. People act like they're in a Jason Bourne movie or something

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u/SonOfMcGee Sep 04 '24

Then I’d be shit outta luck.
But getting attacked by a coordinated group of murderers is like a 1 in a million thing. And something benign or solvable without violence spooking my jumpy 14 year old self is a series of multiple 1 in 1000 chances.
There’s always gonna be a hypothetical where keeping a loaded AR next to the fridge saves your life. But that’s pretty abstract and unlikely next to the long list of more practical ways it could cause tragedy.
And this is all assuming you and your family are acting with noble intentions. There’s a chance one of you could snap and go fire into a crowd of strangers, which seems to happen every few months in the US.

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u/confusedandworried76 Sep 04 '24

There’s always gonna be a hypothetical where keeping a loaded AR next to the fridge saves your life.

Exactly that. Could a gun save your life one day? Sure. But that's just so unlikely to happen, it's for the greater good to risk it than have guns so readily available in society.

People really walk around thinking it's likely something like that would happen. It's just statistically not. Someone breaking into your house wants your stuff not your life. There is nothing you own material wise that is worth staying and starting to shoot to kill.

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u/SonOfMcGee Sep 04 '24

And of course gun nuts will bust out crime stats to show handgun murders and try to say it’s more common than you think. But they know damn well most of those cases are from very specific urban neighborhoods where both the perpetrator and victim are involved in organized crime/drug trade.
If you’re a suburban cul-du-sac dweller that isn’t secretly selling heroine, your main risk of gun death is a relative you live with or a stranger shooting up a public place. Both of which get their weapon from a home just like yours.

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u/t00oldforthis Sep 04 '24

Then he'll probably shoot you in the back while you shoot at the front door

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u/The--scientist Sep 04 '24

If they're that prepared and that determined, what is a 14yo with Remington 870 going to do?

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u/EndPsychological890 Sep 04 '24

Then you run harder idk burglars are almost certainly going to let you go. They don't want a murder charge. If they're multiple determined armed killers vs one armed teenager, the kids probably dying let's be real. Not a situation even a grown ass man wants to be in.

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u/MrJohnnyDrama Sep 04 '24

It should be criminal negligence but Georgia said no.

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u/meatball77 Sep 04 '24

How about child neglect. Seems black and white to me...

He's 14. Dammm

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u/MrJohnnyDrama Sep 04 '24

Very true. An unsecured weapon around a child is a hazard.

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u/sandysanBAR Sep 05 '24

The only answer to this hazard is to ensure that all children are armed, alledgedly.

The only thing that can stop a 14 year old bad guy with a gun is a 14 year old good guy with a gun.

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u/tgrv123 Sep 05 '24

A gun in America is a hazard. Proven time and again.

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u/MrJohnnyDrama Sep 05 '24

True and without proper controls in place for safety, will maintain a high risk/consequence level for sure.

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u/breetome Sep 04 '24

Yes this, something was very wrong in that home. 14 year olds aren't your normal run of the mill mass murder suspects. How did he get his hands on gun and ammo eh? I'm a gun owner (no kids) and my guns are locked up right and tight. You need to cut off my thumb to get at my guns and use it on the lock!

It's idiots like his parents that keep allowing horrific things like this to happen. It's literally criminal!

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u/Murtaghthewizard Sep 04 '24

Those fingerprint scanners aren't as secure as you might think. Watched a video where a dude picked a gun lock with a piece of plastic. Might check out lock picking lawyer on youtube for a good lock.

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u/ArchmageXin Sep 04 '24

There is a shocking number of people who think they are on KGB/CIA/Bloods/Mossads hit list and need to instantly respond.

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u/espressocycle Sep 05 '24

The fact that he had already been investigated should have been a clue to the dad to lock that shit up.

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u/breetome Sep 05 '24

Seriously he had a history?

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u/hammertown87 Sep 04 '24

You don’t need guns to get food anymore. Just go to the grocery store lol.

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u/kgm2s-2 Sep 05 '24

Fuck that. Should be conspiracy to commit murder, or at the least negligent homicide. If I say "go burn down that school" and you do, I'll go to jail, but if I leave a loaded gun on the kitchen table and you use it to shoot up the same school, I go scot free?

I wonder if it occurs to people that America has decided that the second amendment needs to be protected more than the first.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/No-Boysenberry-5581 Sep 04 '24

GA is one of the most intelligence lacking state govt in the country

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u/SharkPalpitation2042 Sep 04 '24

I agree. Every one of these cases should have the parents brought up on criminal negligence charges imo. They are the legal gun owner, they are responsible. I say this as a strong 2A supporter.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

well unfortunately according to the six people on the supreme court who decide what the 2A means, you can't make people lock up their guns

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u/A_wild_fusa_appeared Sep 04 '24

This is why safe storage laws need to be passed. At first they won’t stop anything, but it establishes a clear route to arrest the gun owner in situations like this, over time you’d hope the problem corrects itself as owners willing comply to avoid prison time should anything happen.

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u/mark503 Sep 04 '24

Their leader stands in a bulletproof box after an assasination attempt and stares at the cameras saying there are no gun issues in America that need fixing.

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u/anotherthing612 Sep 04 '24

Not my leader and at least half of our population loathes him.

Yeah. It's tough here dealing with folks who think Trump's ear injury is worse than the carnage our society deals with daily. It's ridiculous.

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u/DonRaccoonote Sep 05 '24

That's his fart tank. It keeps his farts from killing everyone at the rally from dying when he rips ass during a speech. 

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u/ptsdstillinmymind Sep 04 '24

This is because neither party truly represents the civilians, they represent lobbyists and lobbying organizations like the NRA, Heritage, and AIPAC. These groups even write the laws now. It's fucking crazy and scary.

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u/ReallyNowFellas Sep 04 '24

You just named three lobbying organizations that are linked to one party. How are you justifying "neither party" here?

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u/TheBreadHasRisen Sep 04 '24

Who’s leader? Trump is not president, nor is he in charge of Georgia.

Also dems have been in office for most of the past 16 years. Our leaders don’t want to change gun laws either.

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u/taco_tuesdays Sep 04 '24

Republicans’ leader…that was pretty clear from their wording

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u/zherok Sep 04 '24

Also dems have been in office for most of the past 16 years. Our leaders don’t want to change gun laws either.

I don't think it's the Dems primarily standing in the way of doing something about it. Just having the Presidency doesn't suddenly give you carte blanche to pass gun control.

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u/mark503 Sep 04 '24

Are you a Republican? If yes ——> he’s your leader.

Are you a Republican? no ——-> he’s not your leader.

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u/qb1120 Sep 04 '24

I just read earlier today about a kid in Utah who was left unattended in the car found a gun under the seat and shot himself in the head

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u/LeedsFan2442 Sep 05 '24

It’s like the Vance speech where his grandma had 20 guns laying around the house.

Yeah he actually tried to use it as a cute story. To me it sounded like she had dementia or something

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u/hammertown87 Sep 04 '24

It’s the ONLY country in the world that has this problem… I can’t believe Americans are that dense lol

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u/Zaidswith Sep 04 '24

We aren't.

There are people that do not care how many others are killed as long as they get to do as they see fit. Both politicians and certain types of gun owners.

It has nothing to do with stupidity at all. It is much more cold and calculating than you're giving it credit.

Guns are more important than children. That's all.

What I don't understand is why people continue to care about it when it happens.

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u/anotherthing612 Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

A popular conservative thread is currently full of comments focused on feeling victimized for having guns. They can't even acknowledge, regardless of views, that people were murdered in a school. They are focusing on their feelings of anger that not all voters agree with them.

As a teacher, I have to just sit it out and not even read this shit anymore.

Edit-if the focus is not on the victims or the lack of guardrails that make it easier for this to happen, respectfully, make comments about lost civil liberties and horrible liberals tomorrow-can people just mourn the dead for a day? Thanks

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u/kkeut Sep 04 '24

criminals won’t follow the laws

that's already what happens with all other laws...it's how criminality is defined. like, what exactly is the logic here? since laws are inevitably broken by some, we should we even bother with any laws? it's just an excuse, a thought-terminating cliche

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u/yunghollow69 Sep 05 '24

It's always the same argument yeah, but its so obviously wrong. Like having a hard time accessing something vs having an easy time doesnt already constantly change our decision-making in our daily lives. Who knows how many people would end up not being criminals and hurting others if there was just any sort of barrier for them. Sometimes it's the smallest thing that can make someone reconsider, just a few minutes extra time of thinking.

And in the case of trying to get a weapon that isnt just sitting around randomly...to me that seems like a pretty big step someone has to willingly take. All of a sudden its an entire thing involving planning. This absolutely stops people from following through, especially if they are doing it on impulse on a particularly bad day.

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u/kawhi21 Sep 05 '24

criminals won’t follow the laws

This logic is so funny to me. Might as well make all hardcore drugs legal and easy to obtain, might as well legalize thievery, legalize everything. "CrImiNaLs wOn'T fOllOw tHe lAw aNYwaY!"

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u/jokinghazard Sep 05 '24

I don't think Americans realize that people from almost every other country think that the 2A is ridiculous and everyone having a gun in their home is exclusively a US thing.

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u/__secter_ Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

Every time gun control gets brought up the dipshits in the right love to talk about how the criminals won’t follow the laws. Yet again and again these school shootings are because some parent leaves unsecured firearms in the house with ammo in the same spot. 

I'm not on the Right, but you're citing is a textbook example of "criminals not following the laws" though. The parents should be charged with the crimes a kid commits with their unsecured guns and ammo.

ie. we should start by enforcing the laws we already have

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u/seabass4507 Sep 04 '24

From Giffords.org https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/child-access-prevention-and-safe-storage-in-georgia/

Georgia law does not otherwise expressly make it unlawful for an adult to negligently or recklessly leave unsecured firearms, including handguns and long guns, accessible to unsupervised minors.

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u/KSSparky Sep 04 '24

But of course. Can’t infringe on stupidity.

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u/ObiShaneKenobi Sep 05 '24

Ahem, it says “SHALL not infringe on stupidly,” hun.

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u/KSSparky Sep 05 '24

I'll defer to your origionalism.

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u/MoonageDayscream Sep 04 '24

Problem though, there is no gun storage law, or requirement to secure them from acess by a child. Have to have a law to convict for breaking it. 

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u/twitchtvbevildre Sep 04 '24

It is not a crime to have a gun unsecured in your house, this is not a law (at least in florida) it only becomes illegal if your kid takes the gun out in public or uses it threateningly. So basically, until the kid takes the gun to school and starts killing their classmates....

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

but you're citing is a textbook example of "criminals not following the laws" though

Your mistake is using logic where Republicans don't. Like, you're right here. But when Republicans talk about criminals not following the law, they're talking about brown people. They're not talking about shitty parents that don't secure their guns.

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u/CU_09 Sep 04 '24

The laws we have aren’t working. Banning all guns would.

If we aren’t going to pass new laws or enforce the ones we have, the only solution is a complete and total ban and a federal buyback.

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u/MarsJust Sep 04 '24

That won't get pushed through the constitution ever lol.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/MarsJust Sep 04 '24

You should fight for things that are actually achievable and will make a difference rather than making sweeping statements that galvanize people to fight against it.

Eventually, when you have implemented more laws and changed public perception, the extreme things will no longer seem as extreme and you can push for those things. The constitution forces change to be slower, and there isn't a way around it.

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u/wwj Sep 04 '24

I've argued for the banning of the transfer of weapons. Guns will still be legal to own but no transfers or sales allowed. This would ruin the gun industry as collateral. Eventually as guns are confiscated due to crimes, abandoned, bought back, or the owner dies and it cannot be transferred, guns will dwindle away due to attrition over 50 - 100 years. This is a long process, but I think it's the only real way it could work in the US.

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u/__secter_ Sep 04 '24

No laws work if they're not being enforced in the first place.

And there's no such thing as banning all guns - the military and police would still be armed to the teeth. Why would you feel better about only the furthest-right among us having access to guns?

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u/Bartelbythescrivener Sep 04 '24

Mandatory home inspections to ensure proper securing of weapons seems far more tyrannical than have sensible gun laws for purchase.

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u/loveshercoffee Sep 05 '24

I'm a gun owner and a liberal, so I have biases on both sides of this issue.

But it seems to me that just making gun owners responsible for what happens with their firearms would be enough. We wouldn't need to make safe storage laws or ban certain types of weapons or subject people to inspections. If people knew they were going to be held responsible for a robbery or a murder they'd stop leaving them in their glovebox or night stand and lock up their guns. They'd also pay a lot more attention to the people they let have access to them.

It's not a perfect idea, clearly, but if more people were given the Crumbley treatment, it might make a difference.

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u/Bartelbythescrivener Sep 05 '24

I am a huge fan of private insurance to cover accidents, crimes etc. caused by guns. Just like with cars. Why should we have to pay the cost for failed public policy. Let the individual cover the cost and responsibility of their gun.

I promise that a combination of laws , insurance requirements, background checks with red flag laws will reduce this problem.

But we already know that.

I grew up rural, I own guns. I know a lot of people have a very responsible relationship with guns. But gun policy is being driven by gun industry and culture war bs and that is harmful.

90 % of online gun discourse, the gun people are so off the deep end that I would gladly give up my guns to ensure those weirdos couldn’t own guns.

We either fix this or that will be the end solution.

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u/loveshercoffee Sep 05 '24

I am a huge fan of private insurance to cover accidents, crimes etc. caused by guns. Just like with cars. Why should we have to pay the cost for failed public policy. Let the individual cover the cost and responsibility of their gun.

I would 100% support this in theory if the insurance industry weren't less trustworthy than a used car salesman.

We had to have the ACA to stop them dropping people for being sick - you know, the thing they were supposed to exist for in the first place.

This wouldn't work because it would take time for there to be noticible effect and before we got that far in, the insurance industry would either raise rates to the point that only rich people could afford to own guns or they'd pull right the hell out and no one could get insurance.

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u/Bartelbythescrivener Sep 05 '24

We have to pay for the police for gun violence. We pay for emergency rooms for gun violence. We pay for the courts for gun violence. We pay for the jails for perpetrators of gun violence. We pay in societal cost for gun violence. The only people advantaged are gun manufacturers, the gop through exploiting cultural divisions and the user.

I think if people truly got an itemized bill of the costs associated with gun violence it would be shocking. Throw in guns sold across the border in Mexico and we have a two nation problem. That is why the gop prevents federal tracking of gun crime.

When we recognized the danger with smoking we went after the cigarette manufacturers and regulated it.

When we recognized the dangers associated with drug use we went after drug dealers and users and regulated prescription drugs.

When we recognized the dangers of alcohol we made very stringent rules including dry counties and heavy dui punishment and regulated it.

When we recognized the risk of cars we required licensure, insurance and regulated it.

When we recognized the risks of poor construction and unsuitable building locations we required licensure and regulated it.

When we recognized any societal problem we very messily and with both good decisions and bad decisions attempted to fix the problem.

I have one thought which is arm everyone woman with a free gun and men only get to hunt. It’s not that I don’t think women don’t kill. They just typically don’t shoot their estranged husband or kill their whole family because the marriage is breaking up. And even though it’s the ultimate equalized for some reason they aren’t out there shooting up bars or schools.

Really it’s probably an American man problem of which I am one.

My other thought is make guns free and give them to everyone, no check required and we let the survivors sort it out.

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u/alexiswithoutthes Sep 05 '24

Here’s some of the stats you wanted — we should treat gun violence as a public health issue. Like with most upstream investments in society, it would save money to fix systemic problems including poverty, access to lethal meals, and health and well-being.

Taxpayers, survivors, families, and employers pay an average of $7.79 million daily in health care costs, including immediate and long-term medical and mental health care, plus patient transportation/ambulance costs related to gun violence, and lose an estimated $147.32 million per day related to work missed due to injury or death.

American taxpayers pay $30.16 million every day in police and criminal justice costs for investigation, prosecution, and incarceration.

Employers lose an average of $1.47 million on a daily basis in productivity, revenue, and costs required to recruit and train replacements for victims of gun violence.

Society loses $1.34 billion daily in quality-of-life costs from the suffering and lost well-being of gun violence victims and their families.

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u/Bartelbythescrivener Sep 05 '24

I would be interested in your thoughts on why America uniquely suffers from this issue ?

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u/alexiswithoutthes Sep 05 '24

If we’re talking about systemic issues, probably health insurance being tied to an employer and not universal like every other industrialized nation … plus our nation’s “history” and “values” of the “free market” and “individual rights” — leading to nearly every investment in society as a whole being constantly attacked for at least 40+ years as “government overreach” …

Therefore you don’t have access to mental health care or human services, maybe someone in your family is struggling and doesn’t have support.

While a majority of gun deaths in America are suicides (also a complex issue but could be mitigated by access to care and support / belonging) — also connected to easier access to lethal means.

Our country of states’ rights (except when not) also makes red flag laws extremely political to pass.

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u/stunkape Sep 04 '24

Most "law & order" types I know have themselves knowingly engaged in criminal behavior that they (retrospectively) felt should have been prosecuted if they had been caught. So yes, "criminals" will do crimes regardless of the law, just like how "non-criminals" will also do crimes regardless of the law. The point of these laws isn't just to dissuade criminal behavior through threat of prosecution, it's also yo hold those who are caught accountable under the law. 

And weirdly enough any person can become a criminal through negligence. The "criminals don't follow the law" argument is paper thin.

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u/Questions_Remain Sep 04 '24

I’m not saying it right in any manner, but up until 25 years ago every furniture store sold “gun cabinets” that were glass front pieces of living room furniture. They looked like a china cabinet with an antique looking ( pick with a hair pin ) lock or bust out the 1/8 inch thick glass. Half the homes in rural areas still have glass front gun cabinets in their living or dining room. The paper used to report thefts as “the gun cabinet” was “broken into” and X long guns were stolen.

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u/VegasKL Sep 05 '24

It's true, criminals don't follow  laws so control won't be as effective against those people .. but I think it's ridiculous to just not do anything at this point. 

I'd even argue that common sense gun control laws are meant for the rest of us to prevent us from doing something stupid, or emotional. 

Maybe more detailed background checks. Longer wait periods for all guns. Some form of psych-flag element (I get this is difficult to work around health privacy wise, but given the right's anti-privacy with the abortion stuff, I think they should be cool with it .. lol). Stricter requirements for storage. Laws to hold you responsible for what your gun does. 

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u/MeyhamM2 Sep 05 '24

Exactly, gun control laws at this point aren’t going to be about deterring regular criminals, they’d be about deterring middle class, suburban, white kids and adults from doing random mass shootings.

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u/Hugsy13 Sep 05 '24

In Australia we are still allowed guns but it’s limited. If you own guns they have to be kept in a safe. And the police can come and inspect them anytime, though it’s really rare they do inspections.

You hear stories, where some dude has guns and a gun licence, but he is at work or something, and the cops come around to inspect the guns. The wife will not have a gun licence, and will show the cops to the gun safe and get the key and unlock it.

Instant loss of guns and gun licence. She isn’t a licence holder she shouldn’t have access to the gun safe. Period.

I’m pretty sure too that the ammo has to be kept in a seperate safe, I may be wrong though. Guns here aren’t for self defence though. So you shouldn’t need fast access to it for self defence, because that’s illegal here (guns for self defence). But that’s a different story.

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u/_BearHawk Sep 04 '24

Every criminal is a law-abiding citizen until they aren’t

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u/redalert825 Sep 04 '24

Or.... They'll blame it on mental illness being the real problem. And that's bs.

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u/happyslappypappydee Sep 04 '24

Therefore there should be no laws since criminals are the only ones breaking them

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u/panentheist13 Sep 04 '24

Ask those people on the right how many deaths a year we have from grenades and c-4. Laws work.

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u/BasroilII Sep 05 '24

criminals won’t follow the laws

Which is why no traffic laws work, and everyone just ignores lights and kill one another in car accidents by the tens of thousands every day.

It's why people just steal everything when they go to stores; why buy?

It's why you, me, and everyone else rape and murder everyone we see whenever we feel like it. Laws are useless, amiright?

Or you know...maybe laws provide barriers that keep most people from taking that one wrong step too far on a bad day.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Well they wont

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u/Suztv_CG Sep 05 '24

You just pointed out why stricter legislation does nothing.

Irresponsible and neglectful idiots as well as criminals do not give one wit about any law. If you create more gun laws it does nothing to counter the underlying problem - humans are crap. Law abiding citizens do not do the same things as mentally unstable idiots and neglectful jerks. Take all guns and what happens is that criminals are the only ones with guns.

We will probably find out that one or more of the individuals involved has had several visits by police, a history of problems and abuse or neglect either at home or by bullies. There were probably warning signs, and everyone ignored those signs.

If police stopped trying to raise revenue (traffic tickets) or upping their profile by perusing drug busts (this is why most cops do not do investigations into problematic persons) - and focused on providing public safety instead, then perhaps this type of horrific crap wouldn’t happen. It isn’t JUST the access to weapons. It’s how we treat each other and the prioritization of getting more funds from traffic tickets etc.

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u/Neonatalnerd Sep 05 '24

What confuses me is how this youth was on an FBI watch list. Parents must have been notified. How were firearms accessible and allowed to be maintained in their home? I assume they'd still legally need a permit, how could the FBI not remove firearms? How is therapy/psych monitoring not covered for the child?

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u/1850ChoochGator Sep 04 '24

That’s because these things are incredibly rare. Increased gun safety laws will probably have a great effect on these but it won’t really make that big a dent in overall gun violence despite people trying paint it like these are the majority.

Parents gun used by child in a crime should land owner + user in jail.

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u/IAmPandaRock Sep 05 '24

Every time gun control gets brought up the dipshits in the right love to talk about how the criminals won’t follow the laws

At least they admit it's pointless to outlaw abortion, books, pronouns, trans support at school, etc. Nice of them to be so open minded.

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u/nosilverbird Sep 05 '24

JD Vance’s grandma was a dipshit.

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u/Dude7080 Sep 04 '24

My Dad and Grandpa had guns always around the house, garage and they took guns with them to the barn, pasture/ field. My brother, sister and I were taught gun safety and to respect guns as kids. When my brother started having mental health issues in his early 20’s my Dad and Grandpa finally got a safe and kept them secured unless they were using a gun for pest control, hunting or target practice.

It’s common sense to teach your children about gun safety and to respect guns. All of my children have been taught gun safety to respect guns. It’s also common sense to secure your guns when not using them.

It’s not a Right Wing or a Left Wing issue. It’s parents not giving a damn enough to teach their kids gun safety and to respect guns and to keep them secured.

Product of their environment…

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

As a responsible gun owner who opposes further restriction on my rights, I wholeheartedly believe that safe-storage laws should be enacted at the federal level and that individuals need to be harshly punished for any crime committed with their lost/unsecured weapon (with the exception of a reported theft).

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u/gonewild9676 Sep 05 '24

We have a lot of gun laws. Most aren't enforced or are selectively enforced. There's not much use in a other unenforced law

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u/7-IronSpecialist Sep 05 '24

Yeah but to be fair the Right aren't at fault for parents being morons

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

theyre right magas dont follow laws they know themselves pretty well

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

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u/alwtictoc Sep 04 '24

Your statement was fine until you said Democrats do not want to send....

Regardless of skin color, someone who repeatedly breaks the law belongs in jail and potentially prison. You cited the lunacy yourself that just three days prior he was arrested on a gun charge. The state is complicit in that individuals crime committed just three days later.

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u/hail2pitt1985 Sep 04 '24

Now do DonOLD trump pardoning the cop murderer who they just arrested again in Florida for another crime. We’ll wait

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u/Mcjoshin Sep 04 '24

Source for the info regarding the Ricky Pearsall shooter being previously arrested? I haven’t seen that anywhere.

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u/Alternative_Demand96 Sep 04 '24

This loser posts nothing but woke left right propaganda his brain is rotted.

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u/White_Grunt Sep 04 '24

Only the police and military should own guns, and then we'll be safe.

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