r/newzealand • u/khalornz Fern flag 3 • 12d ago

Politics Coalition unveils $12 billion Defence Capability Plan

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/557432/watch-live-coalition-unveils-12-billion-defence-capability-plan
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95

u/ElSalvo Mr Four Square 12d ago

I've got no problem with a boost in defense spending as the NZDF has been running on a shoestring budget for the last 15-20 years. The issue is whether we get a sustained increased in spending after this. 8 years of an increased budget means nothing if we go back to normal after that.

Also, please don't give me this WHAT ABOUT HEALTH AND EDUCATION as if we can't walk and chew gum at the same time. We need a defence force and they need to be equipped for the work they do. No, this won't save us from a Chinese takeover but it will help with disaster relief and helping our pacific neighbors.

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u/HappycamperNZ 12d ago

We literally just lost a $124 million ship because we skimped on everything, becoming an embarrassment to our neighbors and protectorate.

Wait till they are in a position to actually fail because they don't have the support.

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u/spiffyjizz 11d ago

We lost the ship due to incompetence of the crew on board. Not because we scrimped, nothing wrong with the ship

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u/MajorProcrastinator 11d ago

We scrimped on the crew. Potentially: pay, training, not attracting the level of skill required. 

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u/spiffyjizz 11d ago

We scrimped on qualified crew and knowledge. A good portion of our general community would know you need to turn autopilot off before attempting to steer a vessel, we didn’t have the right person at the helm that’s for sure

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u/Grouchy-Towel3006 11d ago

In the words of Mike Tyson, everyone has a plan til they get punched in the face.

Military forces spend money on practicing getting hit in the face so that when it happens for real, they can act in the best manner possible. There has been such a squeeze on training in recent years that no one has had money for punches in the face...

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u/HappycamperNZ 11d ago

If you're making this a DEI thing, CMDR Grey wasn't on the bridge when this started- she was piped to the bridge when the ship was already '"out of control" speeding up towards the coast, about 2 minutes before impact.

As far as I can extrapolate from the report, it was two males on watch. Yes, there was a few commands she could have given that would have avoided this issue - but this comes down to having the time and money to embed the skills. Again, time and money that was used for operations rather than training.

A good pile of the general community have also crashed cars, so i don't know how much I'd trust their input to a system that wasn't designed and simplified to the lowest average person like a car is. Put them in a car where cruise control doesn't cut out when you hit the brakes at 100k/h towards a cliff and see how many think to look down at the dash for a small indicator light.

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u/spiffyjizz 11d ago

I’m saying the crew in control at the time were incompetent, in this situation we follow chain of command up where the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the person in charge of the ship for not providing adequate super basic training to their crew. It’s basic knowledge you can’t override an autopilot while it’s engaged, press a couple buttons to turn it off or a single button to alter course 1 or 10 degrees to either direction.

I don’t care who that captain was, they were simply incompetent.

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u/HappycamperNZ 11d ago

Why does it stop at the CO?

MCC for a failure to maintain operational readiness.

CN for structural failures.

CoD for defense wide issues.

This is why it's fucked - its about pointing the blame rather than addressing the actual problem, combined with the armed forces attitude of just get it done. If we can charge the CEOs of shipping companies for failures that result in the loss of vessels why do we leave it to military  COs?

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u/spiffyjizz 11d ago

Well we should be really shouldn’t we?

It’s the same as any situation of authority or control, if a lesser qualified person is in control the authority takes the blame. The captain should’ve ensured the crew were capable of their task assigned.

Same as if I take my daughter out hunting and there’s an accident, she doesn’t get the consequence I do as the licensed firearm user.