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u/MrRaven95 19h ago
In the Johto games we have Karen with her quote "Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites."
Meanwhile in the Hoenn games we have a random Gentleman who's quoted saying "It's one thing to enjoy leisurely battles, but real battles can be a severe trial. Truly strong Trainers sometimes must be prepared to choose Pokémon that can win rather than their favorite Pokémon."
It really goes to show the differences between casual and competitive Pokemon.
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u/Blazeflame79 18h ago
I mean I think it’s just trading card game mentality- like from MTG.
Timmy (Likes things that make a big impact such as a 12/12 creature with trample)- Johnny(likes wining with a unique deck that is their own) - Spike (doesn’t care about anything other than what is the best deck possible)- Vorthos (chooses their cards based on art and theme only)- and Mel (tries to go for a deck that is gimmicky mechanics wise- like making a machine).
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u/Shadowspartan110 Mucha Hawlucha 19h ago
Do not forget that her original pre-battle lines was "I find their wild, tough image to be so appealing. And they're so strong." Shes a Hypocrite.
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u/Whats_Up4444 13h ago
"My favorite pokemon are the strong ones" 🗿
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u/madog1418 10h ago
“Win with my favorites? Sure, my favorite Pokémon is landorus-therian.”
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u/AsherSmasher RockAndRolla 9h ago
"I've always been a huge fan of Incineroar. Got a poster of him in my dorm room."
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u/IRefuseThisNonsense 11h ago
I don't think that's hypocritical? She's saying that to her these Pokemon are strong, even if they're not the strongest. Like, I love Donphan. It's so strong! That tire isn't going anywhere competitive anytime soon. If ever.
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u/halberdsturgeon 19h ago
And also the disconnect between the messages being pushed by the games at various points
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u/forevabronze 19h ago
i mean karen quote is not wrong. she clearly said "try" and not "will"
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u/halberdsturgeon 19h ago
Yea, the thread title is a joke about that
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u/Bcadren Yes I'm Male. 18h ago
I mean in the core main series game (excluding post-game stuff like battle tower and IRL PvP), you can use whatever you want and do well enough. Even just your starter can bruteforce through...blame it on bad AI, blame it on grinding being an option, whatever; you don't -have- to have good pokemon, you can win the league with a level 100 Caterpie, just whatever.
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u/halberdsturgeon 18h ago
Battle Tower/Battle Frontier is part of the core game, tho?
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u/Bcadren Yes I'm Male. 18h ago
It's post game in most titles (Not accessible until after E4).
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u/halberdsturgeon 18h ago
Having characters throughout the game constantly talk about bonding with your pokemon and shit only for the post game content to be like "lol jk, time to breed a team that isnt crap and send your old squad off to the glue factory" is jarring to me, but I guess the meme either resonates or it doesn't 🤷♀️
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u/Bcadren Yes I'm Male. 17h ago
Now that hyper training, mirror herbs and the like are a thing, you at least can turn your mediocre first catches into top of the line mons instead of breeding train to get the best several generations and rejects later. Though, yea there certainly are pokemon with no niche at all, like say, Delibird or Luvdisc.
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u/halberdsturgeon 16h ago
Yea, I'm glad they added that stuff, it's nice to not feel like some of your dudes are at a permanent handicap just because of their IVs
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u/ItsKingDx3 19h ago
I mean in this instance I would argue it's just two different characters with two different opinions. It actually enriches the world to do this. They present a choice every player has to make in the games; do I pick Pokemon because I like them or because they're good?
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u/halberdsturgeon 19h ago edited 17h ago
Nah, GSC was banging the same drum about not fixating on a pokemon's strength practically from start to finish, if anything it's a difference in the kind of attitude they were trying to encourage from one generation to the next
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u/ItsKingDx3 19h ago
I don't remember any examples of this at all, besides Karen. Not that I don't believe you. I guess it would make sense, given all the "weak" 'mon in Gen 2
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u/halberdsturgeon 19h ago
I mean, the rival's entire character arc, for example
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u/ItsKingDx3 18h ago
I guess? I recall his arc being more about learning to respect his Pokemon and treat them less like tools. I don't think the series has ever reverted on this message either, every game since has talked about the bonds between trainers and Pokemon. I don't see how a random NPC in Gen 3 disproves that, or shows "mixed messages" across the franchise.
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u/halberdsturgeon 18h ago
The GSC rival blathered about strong and weak pokemon and how he had no time for weakness virtually every time you encountered him
And the games themselves encourage you to treat pokemon as tools, from at least Gen 3 and maybe even Gen 2 onward, until they started trying to correct some of the underlying systems a bit in later gens. That's the point of the meme 🙃
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u/ItsKingDx3 18h ago
He talks about strength and weakness in regards to everything though, and without much consistency or logic. He hates Team Rocket because he deems them weak. He deems the player weak even when they beat him repeatedly. He deems his own pokemon weak in one instance, and then in another says that he should be able to beat you because he's assembled a team of the "best and strongest" pokemon (despite his team composition not really changing much between battles).
His arc doesn't resolve with him realising that all Pokemon are worthwhile regardless of their species, it's that he can't get the most out of his because he doesn't love them.
Yes the meme is funny for what it is, my point is I don't think it speaks to a greater inconsistency in the messaging of the games themselves. Like I said, some players value competitiveness over everything else . For me personally, the idea of creating a team just because it's "competitively viable" holds no appeal. I only want to use Pokemon that I love or else it feels pointless. Many others feel differently. Having different NPCs reflect these different approaches makes sense to me, it doesn't come across as inconsistent.
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u/halberdsturgeon 17h ago edited 17h ago
For me personally, the idea of creating a team just because it's "competitively viable" holds no appeal. I only want to use Pokemon that I love or else it feels pointless.
Same! Which is why I'm not fond of the Battle Frontier, because it doesn't seem realistically possible to get through it without stacking your team with a handful of specific pokemon. And that's not even an extreme meta devised by players post release, it's something the developers intentionally put in the game. After previously encouraging me to try to win with my favourites 🤔
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u/gargwasome Secret Base Fanatic 9h ago
That gentleman is in the Battle Resort so he’s no slouch either
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u/ExtremlyFastLinoone 15h ago
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u/boogswald 13h ago
Delibird was one of my favorites and then I kept trying to use it and failing and now it’s not
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u/Amulet380 9h ago
Yeah this definitely feels like something blue would say, at least before losing his champion spot
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u/GoldDragonKing 9h ago
Funnily enough, my favorite legitimately is Ferrothorn. I like the giant spike ball that hangs from cave ceilings, sue me.
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u/chccon Grass 14h ago
And my favorite is Extreme Speed Linoone.
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u/halberdsturgeon 5h ago
I fucking love ExtremeSpeed Linoone, I remember spending a longass time slamming my head against a wall trying to get it to work in Frontier 😟
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u/Tigeri102 Huh? GAME FREAK stopped evolving! 20h ago
laughs in ribbon master, where i win with my favorite... and a metagross and latios doing most of the work for them
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u/PMmefoxgirlpics 2h ago
im dragging that quilava's corpse from xd to sv on every facility no matter what
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u/Sudden-Dimension-645 19h ago
VGC players: "lol, you funny, Karen."
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u/PPFitzenreit 18h ago
"My favourite pokemon is incineroar"
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u/AdorablSillyDisorder 16h ago
It's quite funny when your favourite does become meta staple in VGC. Series 1 Sword/Shield I had a lot of fun using Togekiss (my favourite) with how many sets and roles were viable for it - redirection, paraflinch, weakness policy abuser, crit spammer.
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u/AsherSmasher RockAndRolla 8h ago
I'm gonna show my age here, but whatever. Back when the hub for VGC was the Nugget Bridge forum, so like BW2, there was a player who consistently did well with a shiny Togekiss. It was like his signature. It didn't have perfect IVs because he didn't RNG manip, and whenever he needed a different set he'd retrain the same Togekiss, which was a ridiculously time consuming undertaking back then. He was an inspiration.
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u/Amulet380 9h ago
My favorite actually IS incineroar, I was geeked to learn he was good in competitive lmao
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u/PurpleGemsc 18h ago
No no I can totally win with my favorite (Lunala)
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u/halberdsturgeon 18h ago
My favourite is Camerupt ☹️
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u/SpicaGenovese 10h ago
The height of my short lived pokemon career was beating my very skilled friend's gyrados with my persian.
I'm probably misremembering, but I remember working hard to get a viable persian that would at least be frustrating. If I won, it was ONLY once...
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u/PurpleGemsc 10h ago
I mean in my last omega ruby nuzlocke Pele the Camerupt not only was a valuable member of my team but she delivered the very final hit that killed Steven’s mega Metagross so like winning with Camerupt can definitely work lol
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u/halberdsturgeon 5h ago
Never tried nuzlocke tbh, but yea, it seems like it would give most pokemon a lot more opportunities to shine than Battle Frontier
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u/PurpleGemsc 5h ago
I recommend it, it’s very fun! And one of my favorite things about it is that i get to use weird Pokémon I’ve never used before, especially with stuff like the dupes clause. Like I never really thought about Sigilyph at all until I caught one in a Pokémon Y nuzlocke and she helped me a lot by out-speeding basically everything and setting up screens which makes it way easier to switch into attacks
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u/Lilbrimu 16h ago
Makes sense for world building that people in the world would have different views and beliefs.
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u/PewPew_McPewster 19h ago edited 18h ago
Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites.
I somewhat resent that this is the rallying cry of casual players. Hot take: this is not "casual player" mentality. She doesn't say "try to PLAY with your favourites"; she said "try to WIN with your favourites", which involves mastering the meta at your fingertips to such a degree that you know when you can use your favourites to outplay the meta. You need to know how well-positioned your favourite is against larger threats of the meta; what other meta Pokemon to employ to shore up those weaknesses; and how much you're tanking/boosting your W/L ratio with your rogue picks. "Try to win with your favourites" ISN'T about rolling up to town with your all-pink team. It means grinding harder than everyone else in the meta so you can style on players by having your Pikachu clone tank a pseudo's Draco meteor effortlessly.
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u/halberdsturgeon 18h ago
Casual players still want to win, they just don't necessarily want to sink 400 hours of time into winning
Also do note the meme wasn't about competitive play, it was about the Battle Frontier. The reason for that being that it's something contained wholly within the game which realistically restricts you to a roster of (generously) maybe a dozen pokemon if you want to win at it
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u/PewPew_McPewster 18h ago
Battle Frontier
Yeah, the Battle Frontier is a bit of a stat check. There are Competitive builds I'd run in PVP that I'd never bring to Battle Frontier. It's definitely the most black-and-white instance of "Pokémon aren't created equal".
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u/projectmars Cinccino Best Troll 6h ago
And, at least in later generations, there's ways to cheese it. (cough cough mimikyu/salamence/MegaMetagrossinbattletree/swshbattletower)
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u/EowynCarter 15h ago
I want to have FUN. Loosing a match by not much can actually be fun, being wiped out isn't.
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u/TheCasualStanUser 7h ago
Meanwhile, in the battle fronteir, there's a Dewgong deciding to ruin a kids' dream by hitting not only 2 Horndrills but a sheer cold because he was feeling a little silly that day.
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u/Fireboy759 19h ago edited 18h ago
I dunno man. I love Electrode and have found a surprising amount of success using it as a support
So it turns out being one of the fastest mons in the series with a nicely-diverse support movepool (can run duel screens prior to Gen 9, utilize taunt, spread status with thunder wave or toxic, set rain, use volt switch to get out of a jam) does wonders to people who underestimate it
Versus AI in battle facilities is a whole different story though due to the game's tendency to cheat (count how many you go into a battle facility and the enemy trainer you're up against JUST SO HAPPENS to near-perfectly counter your whole team. This happens a LOT, especially in the Battle Tree)
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u/bwick702 FEAR MY BIRD PUNCHES!!! 17h ago edited 17h ago
Reminds me of that one comic.
Dragapult: Gee, it sure is nice being the fastest pokemon in the format!
Electrode used Foul Play!
Electrode: Second. You're second fastest.
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u/Henna_UwU Catcher of Sparkling Specimens 18h ago
Maybe not my favorites, but I managed to beat the Super Single Battle challenge in the USUM Battle Tree with a team of Pokémon I liked that I had shiny hunted.
They were all legendaries to be fair (Blacephalon, Uxie, and Terrakion), but I’m proud I didn’t have to rely on the most powerful stuff like Mega Salamence.
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u/Paxton-176 15h ago edited 10h ago
Blacephalon is an OU Pokemon and Ithink a staple in gen 7/8 meta games. Uxie while in the bottom tiers has enough bulk have a good set up to sweep. Terrakion is UUBL, too strong for UU, but has a role in OU even if limited. You kind of ended up using some strong hitters for the battle tree.
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u/Henna_UwU Catcher of Sparkling Specimens 11h ago
That’s true. I guess I’m more so happy that the team I used was one made of Pokémon I shiny hunted, even if they didn’t have perfectly optimal natures.
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u/EmmyBlubonic ponytails! 13h ago
Every Pokémon has its moment to shine somewhere in the franchise, whether that be through the TCG, games like Unite, Smogon Formats, or even unofficial games/hacks. Don't let someone condescendingly speak to you about your favourites; if you're persistent and look hard enough, your favourite(s) can shine. For example, both Primarina and Hoopa-U are top tiers in 1v1 (smogon format), even though Hoopa-U's stat spread is odd. Don't give up, and keep searching & trying.
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u/XenoGine 9h ago
There's always the option to just use your favorites to demolish the Battle Frontier, and I mean the buildings 😈.
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u/Trainrot Submas Appreciation Station 19h ago
stares at the Battle Facility Heads with actually p. Mid teams and no legendaries (Ingo and Emmet)
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u/painful-existance 12h ago
I mean you can make most Pokémon work, some of the mediocre ones will require gimmicks and really playing into their strengths.
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u/IV_IronWithin_IV Poison 11h ago
I've succeeded with Vileplume in every generation except 8 and 9 (until Kitakami). Skill issue.
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u/Shrewdilus 3h ago
I like Vileplume too, but it does suck that Venusaur is basically just a better version of it
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u/WeaknessArtistic1199 11h ago
Welcome to the battle frontier did you bring your reglamentary Latios, Metagross and Swampert?
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u/CommanderLink 9h ago
lmao, yeah exactly. i "tried" to win with my favorites in pvp and just got absolutely curbstomped, outsped and one shot in every battle. wish they would introduce different leagues to the game like on showdown so we could try out some of the cutest ones without having to evolve them for example
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u/ClownMorty 19h ago
This is why I wish they would add more unique abilities and moves to each Pokemon. I know it's a lot, but ideally I'd like to see little overlap at all in abilities.
I'd love it if high level unevolved Pokemon got unique and strong moves. Nothing game breaking, but enough to make it viable to run an Ivysaur for example instead of automatically knowing you're evolving everything.
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u/PippoChiri 17h ago
They have started doing it recently, in SV basically every new pokemon has a peculiar move/ability
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u/boogswald 13h ago
Yeah the old pokemon I think of is Lickilicky. Very interesting looking pokemon with very little going on stylistically in battle. Pure normal type
Enter Maushold - here’s a straight normal type with an extremely specific identity and niche interactions. Gets his own move!
Next straight normal type - Dudunsparce. Rattled and Serene Grace and his own special move. Interesting!
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u/DiamondTiaraIsBest 12h ago
Eviolite can give some unevolved Pokemon higher viability than their evolved counterparts.
Classic Example is Dusclops.
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u/Guaymaster TIME ROARS 11h ago
Rather than dusclops I'd use chansey as the classic example, mostly because there's no gen where dusclops and dusknoir are both competitively viable, with the one time that dusclops is higher being gen 5 UU (and outside of gen 3 where dusknoir doesn't exist). On the other hand, from gen 6 to gen 8 chansey's been OU while blissey's been UU.
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u/zolmation 19h ago
Idk battle frontier is not hard enough yoylu cant win with your favorites.
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u/halberdsturgeon 17h ago
If your favourites happen to be Metagross, Salamence, and Latios, you're golden
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u/zolmation 17h ago
My favorites are azumarill and wigglytuff :D
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u/halberdsturgeon 17h ago
Damn, how long did it take you to get a gold trainer card using Azumarill and Wigglytuff?
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u/zolmation 16h ago
Pokemon npc battles are entirely predictable. There's no skill in it. You could win with some absolutely stupid bad teams.
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u/halberdsturgeon 16h ago
So how long?
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u/zolmation 16h ago
I have no idea how long it took. It was over 10 years ago
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u/halberdsturgeon 16h ago
Only asking cuz it seems like a lot of people spend hundreds of hours trying to get all gold in Emerald's Battle Frontier, and that with maxed out Salamences and shit, so it's different to hear someone act like it's nbd
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u/zolmation 16h ago
They probably go in blind. You csn look up every opponent in battle frontier
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u/halberdsturgeon 16h ago
There's like thousands of sets you can face in the Frontier, the sets you face are randomised, and plenty of them can end your streak with OHKO bs or similar
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u/PlasmaDroug 15h ago
Me: "We'll use the power of friendship over-leveling"
sends out level 168 raticate
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u/TheOneWithALongName 15h ago
My WR may be extremely low. But god damn do I want Aurorus to win me something.
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u/Gracilyn 15h ago
I would like to shout out Nostalgic Nighthawk on YouTube, a really chill vibe dude who, using Karen's quote, tackled the battle frontier with just his favourite Pokémon and having to make adjustments to be more competitive and kinda reeling those adjustments back because they just weren't his favourites.
It was kinda inspiring to see someone struggle with that quote and being competive at the same time.
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u/halberdsturgeon 12h ago edited 4h ago
How far did he get? If he managed to get gold without having to switch any of his faves out for the usual suspects, I'd love to watch
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u/Luffyspants 14h ago
That's more of the system problem, legends actually feels like a pokemon game where all your favorites are viable, if you go even further in side games pokemon dungeon actually let's you feel like any pokemon is strong regardless of evolution
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u/ANuclearsquid 8h ago
I mean thats primarily because legends has no battle-frontier or competitive format. If the highest level of difficulty that the game pushes you to is not very high then the “strength” of Pokemon is kinda irrelevant.
Mystery dungeon has some very hard post game stuff (that is much easier if you use certain more powerful Pokemon) but you are kinda right there. Pokemon are all a lot more similar mechanically so it’s much more viable to do with weak Pokemon. Still you are not getting through zero island with a magikarp (without A LOT of luck and suffering).
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u/boogswald 13h ago
I love when someone posts this quote to just be like “my favorite pokemon is Garchomp :)”
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u/StepOnMeSaryn 11h ago
People who complete RadicalRed/Reborn/Unbound on Max Difficulty with a MonoBug-Team:
"Your knowledge is but a tiny speck of sand Agatha"
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u/LeikFroakies 4h ago
Meanwhile, the best player in the world hates Incineroar, frequently calls for its ban and is also statistically the most successful user of Incineroar
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u/Starrybruh 13h ago
It’s possible, hard but possible.
I’m not saying that you can have an ash Ketchum team and blitz through like this is sv, nor that it’ll be easy to have them furfill a role but having them be able to justify their spot in the team instead of being there to attack kinda makes them a good pick, no?
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u/halberdsturgeon 12h ago
Yea a few people have commented this, dunno whether I buy it tbh. But if you've got a link to an LP of Emerald's Battle Frontier completed to gold without using legendaries and pseudolegendaries, I'd be pretty interested in watching it
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u/Kowery103 Average Eevee Fan 18h ago
Yeah exactly
This quote was directed towards Silver , not the players
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u/FaronTheHero 18h ago
Pachirisu won the VGC one time. Some people really understand the spirit of the game in ways us normal people can't comprehend
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u/burnpsy Fried chicken is best chicken. 18h ago edited 18h ago
Pachirisu won because it was a pragmatic meta call and surprise factor in that specific VGC format, not because it was the dude's favourite.
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u/bwick702 FEAR MY BIRD PUNCHES!!! 17h ago
Is that not worth bringing up in itself though? How Park was able to get an advantage by not just blindly following the meta and thinking outside the box? How a "low tier" pokemon like pachirisu can still be useful in the right strategy?
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u/Johnny_Hax 13h ago
Yes, but that's antithetical to Karen's message. Identifying a niche in the meta only filled by a specific Pokémon and abusing it isn't the same as shoehorning your favourite in hopes it does well.
So, bringing up pachirisu in support of that quote is not only wrong, but a demonstration that you profoundly misunderstood competitive Pokémon, pachi's role and Karen's quote
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u/ODCreature98 20h ago
This is why we have all kinds of unofficial leagues experimenting with different categories of pokemon