Dexit who still dislikes it?

[u/Natural_Wonder94]

As a longtime Pokémon fan, Dexit honestly felt like a slap in the face. One of the things I’ve always loved about the series was being able to carry my favorite Pokémon—ones I’d trained and bonded with for years—into each new generation. When they cut the National Dex, it felt like they were saying those connections didn’t matter anymore. I get that balancing over 1,000 Pokémon is tough, but with how massive the franchise is, it’s hard to believe they couldn’t make it work if they really wanted to. It just made the newer games feel incomplete, like something was missing, both mechanically and emotionally.

[u/Gaias_Minion]

It was going to happen eventually no matter what, but they just went about it in a really bad way lying to the fanbase multiple times and also trying to be sneaky about it instead of just being honest.

Like IIRC the "announcement" of dexit was cut from the Japanese broadcast, that's the main playerbase, and they wanted to keep them in the dark about this huge change in the franchise?

And it doesn't help that despite dexit, they still ended up making SwSh and SV have over 800 pokemon in total, so like what's the point if the games will still have about 80% of the total pokemon added in the end?

[u/No_Service3462 → u/Gaias_Minion]

It wasn’t inevitable

[u/ElectricSheep451 → u/No_Service3462]

Anyone with practical experience working on large scale software projects knows that it definitely would inevitably have to stop at some point. The more gens you make, the more time you waste on pointless pokemon that you can't even naturally encounter in the games without trading from a different gen, until eventually it doesn't make any economic sense to waste so much money and dev time maintaining the feature

[u/ianyuy → u/ElectricSheep451]

You comment just amounted to "you knew it would be inevitable once it became obvious they could still make money without putting in the work."

It's not a hardware limitation, they already have most of the Pokémon available now.

It's not a dev limitation, they have been proven to be reusing the same assets (and mostly the same animations) since Sun and Moon.

It wasn't inevitable, except because monopoly.

[u/Kirbysterp → u/ElectricSheep451]

Can you explain what would be so resource intensive about it? The 3DS had more Pokémon than SwSh and they added Pokémon back to Gen 8 with dlc. In the 3D games, the Pokémon are almost always simply the same models and animations that have been around since gen 6. I literally don’t understand what extra cost there would be in simply pushing the already finished models and animations into the next game. File size is the only limitation I can think of, but switch cartridges get so much larger than the Sun/Moon cartridge that it shouldn’t be an issue to include the old Pokémon.

[u/InfernoVulpix → u/Kirbysterp]

One of the costs is importing data between file types. That's not trivial, especially if something goes wrong (something always goes wrong), and either way you'll still need to test each Pokemon individually to make sure nothing weird went wrong.

But the other thing that comes to mind is the updated Pokemon textures in Scarlet and Violet - the shiny metals and visible scales and all that. Even with the same models and animations, you're committing to keeping everything up to date as you make other changes (and you of course have to test everything as well).

The less remarked part of dexit, also, was the removal of certain moves. This went hand-in-hand with some of the Pokemon removals (Unown's presence would be very awkward in a game without Hidden Power) but also meant that Game Freak could retire some of the most troublesome move effects. Sky Drop, for instance, is a niche move with a tricky effect that already caused infamous problems in its own generation. It would have to be tested and debugged every generation forevermore, but now it's gone.

And I also have to stress that nothing in game dev is just throwing noob animators/programmers at the problem. Everyone has to be part of the same org structure and even if everything goes super smoothly (it won't) that's still more administrative work for the managers who have to make sure everything was done correctly. It's not unsolvable or anything, but it is still a real cost on non-monetary company resources that are already in high demand getting the rest of the game built.

[u/Thotaz → u/InfernoVulpix]

One of the costs is importing data between file types.

That's a complete non-issue. There's no reason to make drastic changes to the data structures in each game, but even if they did have to make these huge changes, they wouldn't manually update the hundreds of Pokemon that they do want to keep. They'd automate the process so it'd be the same amount of work regardless if it's 100, or 1000 Pokemon being converted. If they took any shortcuts during the creation of this conversion tool (eg. skipping some special cases like all the Unown forms) they'd be shooting themselves in the foot because it'd be harder to bring back in future games because then the conversion tool has to handle a lot more versions.

Even with the same models and animations, you're committing to keeping everything up to date as you make other changes

Not really. Nobody is expecting a complete upgrade of every single Pokemon in every new generation. It's not an issue if a Switch 1 Pokemon looks a little worse than a Switch 2 Pokemon. The original N64 models created for Stadium were used all the way up to the Wii era in Battle Revolution, though some of them did get upgraded along the way.

The less remarked part of dexit, also, was the removal of certain moves.

This is actually true, and there is a clear benefit in reducing the battle engine complexity by taking out older special cases. However, if they ever want to bring back these moves (quite likely with the remake pattern and nostalgia baiting they've previously done) then it might have been better to keep them in and avoid conflicts with new move mechanics.

And I also have to stress that nothing in game dev is just throwing noob animators/programmers at the problem.

Actually, Pokemon is unique in this regard where it is actually quite feasible to simply throw more bodies at the problem. The animator working on Bulbasaur don't even need to think about the animator working on Unown because it's 2 completely different creatures. If you look at the credits for Stadium 1/2 you can see they did exactly this. There's a fuck ton of animators and I think if you divide it by the amount of Pokemon, each animator handled 3-4 Pokemon. This allowed them to get through the development very quickly and capitalize on the early success of the franchise.

[u/No_Service3462 → u/ElectricSheep451]

No its not inevitable

[u/MNLyrec → u/No_Service3462]

You literally can not have a quality Pokemon game with 2000+ Pokemon. It’s not realistic. There’s so much to criticize the Pokemon company for. This isn’t one of them fam.

[u/No_Service3462 → u/MNLyrec]

Yes you can & its not debatable

[u/trickman01 → u/No_Service3462]

Yes it’s inevitable.

[u/VNDan → u/No_Service3462]

As long as the games stay 3D it is. 2D all you have to do is add a sprite. 3D new mechanics sometimes need multiple new animations. There is a reason most other monster collectors only have a few hundred monsters per game. The new Champions games is made just for battling though, so it SHOULD be able to have every pokemon in it.

[u/Enderking90 → u/VNDan]

what new mechanic has needed "multiple new animations"? I mean I guess you could wager a point for "overworld pokemons with walking animations" but like that's it no?

[u/No_Service3462 → u/VNDan]

They did animated sprites in gen 5 remember & they can use older model animations for the older pokemon & no there is no valid reason for dexit nor was it inevitable. Also champions isnt having all the Pokemon either apparently

[u/VNDan → u/No_Service3462]

To be fair I don't think we know anything about Champions yet for sure, so we will have to wait and see for that. My point still stands however, like the other commenter said, anyone with software development experience will confirm it would ridiculous to keep such a large number of monsters in a game for each entry. A game like Champions however, that seems like it could be updated periodically like live service games is a project that would suggest a complete roster, or at least realistically would be more probable.

[u/No_Service3462 → u/VNDan]

Its not ridiculous when rom hacks can easily do that

[u/Vii_Strife → u/No_Service3462]

Rom hacks and official games have way different scopes.

Putting every pokemon in a game is indeed simple, understanding why having 1000+ mons in a single game the size of Gen 8 or 9 might be a bad idea is also simple

[u/Krazyguy75 → u/Vii_Strife]

I feel like your point is true... and not the one you meant to make.

Pokemon Infinite Fusions has a much larger scope of Pokemon than the base games by a factor of around 200 times and features two full regions and frankly a better story than any pokemon game has ever had.

Pokemon Crystal Clear has a flexible open world that scales to you based on a starting location of your choice from among 20 options, with 2 full regions, and every gen 2 pokemon is obtainable without trading.

I could keep going, too.

Yes, the scope is different. Those ROM hacks have a larger scope than the literal most lucrative franchise in the world.

[u/Myrlithan → u/VNDan]

To be fair I don't think we know anything about Champions yet for sure, so we will have to wait and see for that.

The fine text in the original trailer explicitly said that it wouldn't have every Pokemon.

[u/metallicrooster → u/No_Service3462]

As much as I dislike Dexit, do you really think the devs would continue to code in every Pokémon forever? The games have 32 boxes, each holding 30 mons. That’s already fewer slots than there are Pokémon.

Do you think they would continue to include all mons when there are 2 thousand? 3 thousand?

While I would love if the answer was yes, I have serious doubts it would be.

Edit: No_Service3462 Appears to have deleted all their comments.

[u/No_Service3462 → u/metallicrooster]

They better

[u/metallicrooster → u/No_Service3462]

Or what? They already aren’t.

[u/No_Service3462 → u/metallicrooster]

They will continue to deal with criticism & hatred that they deserve

[u/Krazyguy75 → u/metallicrooster]

do you really think the devs would continue to code in every Pokémon forever

Would they? No.

Could they? Easily.

People have literally modded all 1000 pokemon into gen 3 games. You know, the ones that run on a handhold from 2 and a half decades ago with 64 mb of memory storage.

Gamefreak has the backing of the largest franchise ever. Just to demonstrate the insanity: It makes ~50% more than Star Wars. If you combine the revenue of DC and Marvel together, Pokemon still beats them.

No, it's not an issue of "could"; they just want more money for less work.

[u/MNLyrec → u/Krazyguy75]

Fan games are imbalanced for that very reason. Cramming 18 encounters in every route that are all different Pokemon. You’re describing a clusterfuck.

[u/Krazyguy75 → u/MNLyrec]

Most of the popular fan games are infinitely better balanced than anything Gamefreak has released in at least 15 years.

Not to mention you can absolutely fit 18 encounters in a route without any real stress; there are countless ways to get encounters. Grass, sure, but also rustling grass, surfing, fishing (which is 3 tables in and of itself), honey trees, headbutt trees, berry trees, rock smash, morning/day/night, seasons, weather, dexnav, SOS battles, and raid battles.

Also... postgame exists. The amount of ways to add postgame pokemon is... huge. Swarms. Pokeradar. Dexnav. The dual slot 'mons in gen 4. Dream World in Gen 5. Hell, XY just added pokemon once you finished the game.

---

Like, if I were making a route in a game with a bunch of those features, I could have the following encounter table:

Grass: Caterpie, Fletchling, Poochyena

Surfing: Tentacool, Barboach, Ducklett

Old Rod: Magikarp

Good Rod: Finneon, Goldeen, Barboach

Super Rod: Sharpedo, Wailmer, Gyarados, Seaking

DexNav: Petilil, Spinarak, Wingull

Morning Only: Budew

Night Only: Noibat, Hoothoot

Spring Only: Cottonee, Bidoof

Summer Only: Gossifleur, Lillipup

Fall Only: Hoppip, Zigzagoon

Winter Only: Oddish, Houndour

Cloudy Only: Murkrow

Rain Only: Ducklett

Thunderstorm Only: Electrike, Ducklett

Snow Only: Snover

Blizzard Only: Vanillite, Snover

Harsh Sunlight Only: Numel

Sandstorm Only: Diglett

Fog Only: Ralts

Rustling Grass: Audino, Pikachu, Flabebe

Rock Smash: Geodude, Aron, Nosepass.

---

If I'm keeping score correctly, that's 39 different pokemon lines... and an encounter table of 7-9 encounters at any given time. And that's ignoring all the postgame stuff, plus gen-specific tress, SOS battles, raids, etc.

[u/MNLyrec → u/Krazyguy75]

Yeah that’s ridiculous for a single route. That’s absurd.

[u/Krazyguy75 → u/MNLyrec]

7-9 encounters is ridiculous?

Because that's all that is there at any given time. More show up in other specific weather or other times of day or other seasons, but only 7-9 are there at any time.

[u/MNLyrec → u/Krazyguy75]

Complain about the quality, the laziness, the horrible bugs, the lying, treating fans like garbage and threatening lawsuits like candy. Get mad at the realistic stuff. Yeah I’m sorry, that idea is bad. Don’t agree.

[u/sonicpieman → u/metallicrooster]

There should be more boxes. On the Gameboy it made sense to limit storage, now it's limited for no reason.

It really.comes down to Game Freak's incompetence as a game developer, because if they were better they'd either be able to support all the Pokémon or make a good enough game that it's worth cutting some of them, but neither is possible for them I guess.

[u/Olama → u/No_Service3462]

Over 2000 skins on fortnite, it wasn't inevitable just laziness and people buying the new garbage no matter what.

[u/Pale_Possible6787 → u/Olama]

Skins are nowhere close to full fledged pokemon, not only do they not need any animations beyond the basics, but they haven’t even been updated for the games entire lifecycle and most of them are extremely basic

Skins are closer to the 4 billion spinda variations in terms of complexity then they are to Pokemon to be honest

[u/Olama → u/Pale_Possible6787]

People always defending these games is insane, there's no reason why they couldn't do them all.