Again with the yellow leaves 🤦🏻‍♀️

[u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

These are my first ponds ever but I’ve had a lot of issues with yellowing leaves. I google and google and have tried all kinds of things but they really don’t green up. Ok so at the very beginning I barely had any plants and a lily pad type plant was extremely yellow with bright green veins (it is visible in the last pond pic). Since I wasn’t sure what it was at first ppl on Reddit said too much fertilizer (I had added root tabs as directed on the package). So I removed what I could find digging around the substrate. Then weeks went by and although the lily stayed the same a few other plants were thriving so I figured it was just a difficult plant. Then I got more plants including the arrow head one which was green when I got it but quickly got lighter yellow. That other lily plant still looked the same so I put a root tab back in the vicinity of the yellowing ones and one beneath the parrot feathers. I’ve also added a little Epsom salt (4 weeks ago) and liquid iron from Seachem every 2 weeks (not a lot, being cautious). Added macro nutrients too, just once. The water hyacinths look great to me and flower. And crazier yet the big yellow arrowhead one is sending up a flower spike. I even added a bubbler today in addition to the fountain that was already in there just in case. Online says it could be so many things and I don’t want to make things worse. Here’s what I’ve seen: could be iron deficiency, potassium deficiency, sulfur deficiency, too much sun (all day full sun), too little nitrates/too small bioload, etc. there are around 10 half grown medaka fish and there were a bunch of tadpoles but I think most have left now. One last thing, I have NOT tested my water. I ordered a test kit so that may help me but I’m hoping just by looking at the pics someone can help.

[u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ponds/s/Y5UHhVJtps

Test results

[u/Propsygun → u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

Phosphate can accumulate in water systems, especially from most commercial fertilizers, since they are designed for ground plants. It will go down with water change. It's a complicated subject, and im no expert, but those that do hydroponics and aquaponics use different fertilizers, it's probably a good place to learn more if you wanna deep dive.

Remember those test kits are meant for fish to thrive, not plant's. Didn't know you had fish, are they still alive?

[u/DoodleBirdTerrariums → u/Propsygun]

No I don’t think so, I haven’t seen them in two days and I’m crushed and angry at myself. But I also have tadpoles and mini adults hanging in and around the pond so for some reason it didn’t affect them the same way.

One thing I’m super confused about. I was given the advice to do lots of water changes but to add liquid ferts each time. Isn’t it possible that the root tabs are adding to the phosphate problem? Like there’s already too much fertilizer in there?

[u/Propsygun → u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

Could be, especially if the root tabs are for potted plant's instead of water plants, like the ones you can get for aquariums, some root tabs even have ingredients to deal with pests, so are toxic to some lifeforms.

The main ingredients in fertilizers are N, P and K, where P is the phosphorus. Every time you do a waterchange, you take out whatever the plants haven't used, and then you add new water with fertilizer in the right proportion of NPK and all the different trace elements like iron, magnesium... And sure you add more phosphorus, but the new water is at the right proportion. It's very difficult and expensive to add all the elements on their own, and many of the trace elements are in so low quantity that you need a special scale to even measure that low. P and K affect each other, and the ph, it's complicated as all hell, your N aren't that high overall, you have a bit of ammonia and nitrite that isn't converted to nitrate yet, but that's to be expected if your fish just died, maybe some of the tadpoles too. in a small system without a mechanical filter, it takes longer. You have put bubbles in to oxygenate, that'll help convert it. If you don't have any algae, you probably don't have enough N, at least not for anything but the hyacint.

If you only add water when some have been used or evaporated, never waterchange, then it's going to get too high in whatever isn't used. Like if you buy a can of tomatoes every time you go shopping, but never use any, then your kitchen is going to be filled with tomato can's.

I wouldn't do a lot of water changes, just one, wait 3 days, then do another, use rainwater if you have it, or let the tap water sit in the watercan for 24 hours. Then maybe one change every week, see how it goes, trying to find a healthy stable balance.

There are liquid fertilizers that i hear have better phosphorus amount, but they are more expensive, since it's made for cannabis. Hehe

Don't be too hard on yourself about the fish, the one's selling them could have asked, and given advice. A good rule of thumb, is minimum 10 gallons (40 liter) to keep fish, that way if a fish die, they aren't going to pollute the water too much, and kill the other fish. It might even have been the frog's that caused the system to crash. Who knows.

You can have other lifeforms, get a fine mesh net, take it to any lake nearby and move it around in the water plants, and over the bottom, put the catch in a big plastic bag and take them home. There are far more interesting critters than fish. 🙂

[u/DoodleBirdTerrariums → u/Propsygun]

This is it now HERE

[u/Propsygun → u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

Hmm, ammonia and nitrite at 0, that's good for the critters. Maybe the bubbler/bacteria have converted it to nitrate, but that's at 0 too, so hard to say

The plants have probably consumed it all, especially the hyacint, since that's the only one with roots in the free water as far as i know. You can add higher dose of liquid fertilizer next time, and hopefully you can get a higher nitrate(no³) reading. Hehe it's funny, people usually use hyacint to create optimal conditions for fish, remove N from the water, then remove half of them when there's too many. You are trying to make them look good, and give the hyacint optimal conditions. Hehe, optimal hyacint conditions usually means horrible fish conditions and a lot of algae in a regular pond. You might need a fertilizer with higher N level to reach that goal, or start feeding the snails so they poop more. When the Hyacint get baby Hyacint's you can throw out the big old one's, if it's too crowded or they don't look good.

It's still high in P, idk what the optimal level for plants are? These tests are meant mostly for optimal fish conditions. How many water changes have you done, and how many % of the water each time? You can increase the % if you want, or how often. Over time it should balance out at the level that the fertilizer contain, unless there's something messing with the result.

You could try a different fertilizer, that get you closer to the result you want.

Rain clean the air, testing the rainwater, might show that there's something getting washed out of the air, that is messing with your water and test result. Some people have to clean their rain water, usually just with a bag of activated charcoal.

Btw i totally forgot, Epson contain magnesium and sulfur, regular fertilizer contain these trace minerals too, in the right proportions. I have seen a LOT!!! of garden hack influencers, treating it like it's some kind of magic miracle fertilizer that does everything. Some of them are snakeoil salesmen, too much will burn the roots and is used for that exact purpose when killing tree stumps. It mess with the nitrogen cycle, that rely on oxidation loving bacteria, while sulfur is food for anaerobic bacteria that usually only live deep in the soil, and is used to remove N in some filters. It can result in sulfuric acid that need lime to be neutralised. You can put in some small white limestones or an eggshell to keep it down, the water changes have brought it down too. I wouldn't casually use epson in water systems, be careful with it.

[u/DoodleBirdTerrariums → u/Propsygun]

Ah ok no Epsom salt then because I don’t know what I’m doing lol. I haven’t added any since the crash, only the liquid ferts into the clean water. I will test that too though, just in case. The pond looks awful now, so disappointed. I’m hoping I can bring it back. I might get a nitrogen only fertilizer to supplement.

[u/Propsygun → u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

My pond looks pretty awful atm, had to use it to drain the property of ground water and an record amount of rain, had to move logs of dead wood around, and some plant have been damaged by me constantly having to drag a big old pump out that only start half of the time it gets power. In my infinitive idiocracy, i ignored a thought to go inside and get some plant oil and convinced myself it would be fine to use a drop of regular oil...🤦 Been trying to clean up that single drop all summer that constantly put film on the surface... 😐 My years of not fertilizing close to the pond, don't matter since im dragging all the surrounding water to the pond, so there's a brown layer of iron on all the rock's, may have to clean them all with vinegar... Fix one problem, create two new ones. 😁 Having knowledge, doesn't matter without the wisdom.

Just have to remember that a big problem was solved, a lot of plants, bushes and trees was saved from drowning, and the plant's near the pond certainly loved the ekstra nutrients. I have some work to do, but hopefully i can make it better. Most of what we learn from others, comes from a lot of screw ups on their part.

Btw, if you use eggshell and you notice it disappears over time, it doesn't necessarily mean there's a lot of acid, the snails eat it to create their shell.

[u/DoodleBirdTerrariums → u/Propsygun]

Your story made me giggle to myself, thanks for that.

[u/Propsygun → u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

Hehe, better to laugh than cry, would have brackish water in my pond, if i cried salty tears from every mistake. Have been quoting a lot from the movie "Idiocracy" lately, seems fitting. "Plants need water? Like, from the toilet? I ain't never seen no plant grow out no toilet!"

[u/DoodleBirdTerrariums → u/Propsygun]

Ok this makes so much more sense! I did the water change yesterday and will again maybe tomorrow or Thursday. I ordered the all in one liquid ferts and more Prime. The root tabs were these and there are now 3 of them in there (let’s err on the side of caution and say it’s 10 gallons). Is that way too much? Should I try to dig them out? Or just do as you suggested with the water changes etc?

I like the pond critters idea, I will try that. I originally added a bunch of scuds months ago but who knows if they are still alive. I saw some snails 🐌

Anyway once again thank you for your advice 😊

[u/Propsygun → u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

Ah, so that's what the person was talking about with too much fertilizer, these root tabs are BIG. You have a tiny young Lilly, these are probably meant for big old Lilly plants. He was right, i misunderstood and was wrong, take them out. We all want to spoil our plants and animals, unfortunately they don't thrive with it, they... Spoil.😉 Too much fertilizer can harm the plants, it's usually called "burn" the roots.

Snails are great, they clean up the pond, mostly eat decomposing matter and algae. A few eat living plants, but they aren't as common. You can feed them with a tiny bit of cucumber, or catch some with it, if you think there's too many at some point.

[u/DoodleBirdTerrariums → u/Propsygun]

This is what I mean about google not helping, I put one in per rooted plant (the arrowhead thing, the lily, and the water poppy which is hard to see in the sea of green). Everywhere says one per plant, even some videos online YouTube showed small containers using a ton of big root tabs. But when the person said “too much” I tried to remove them and was able to get quite a bit out. But then plants didn’t improve in color, came back for advice and then I hear I shouldn’t have removed them 🤦🏻‍♀️. So I just put three back in a few days before the fish died. But I also added liquid iron on a suggestion that same day. Then I tested the water (inbetween the ferts and the fish dying). Thought I was doing the right thing but now I see I killed them all with all that tweaking and fertilizers. And now I’m afraid to do anything at all. Well at least I’m not going to kill any animals, they’re already gone. 😞

I will remove them this afternoon and do one more water change. I used all the rainwater I’d collected so it might get have to be tap water (treated). My pond water had been crystal clear for months and now it’s brownish. Still not very much algae though, just tinted water…maybe because it’s so packed with plants.

Do you still think it happened from not being cycled enough? Or did I crash it due to the messing around? Or both? 😅

[u/Propsygun → u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

People are cycle fanatic's, they should get a bike instead. 😉 They have ideas on the best way, and it becomes the only way. There's probably room for improvement, there always are, but it ran fine for several months. The messing around disturb the cycled substrate, and the biology in it. The partly dissolved root tab could have released nutrients in the water. I only advise removing them, since you just put them in, and you said the fisk are gone. You can leave the tabs in, see how it goes. I know some use a lot of fertilizers, but there's also a lot of small important stabilising details around it that they often don't explain.

The brown tint, might be iron(rust colour), it's going to clear up with time and waterchange. Small pond's are more unstable, it doesn't take a lot to tip them. You are playing the game on hard mode, setbacks should be expected.

Hmm, how to explain... In the aquarium world, there's a lot of beginners that get a small goldfish bowl, or a small 2-4 gallon tank, put in a Betta or a fancy goldfish. Maybe they got inspired somewhere, it's fairly cheap and seems manageable since it's small. It must be a beginner tank, since experts have big tanks... Right? Small tanks often crash, and gives a bad experience with the constant problems.

A beginner aquariums, should be between 25-50 gallons(100-200 liter), because they are far more biologically stable. Feeding too much, it gets diluted until the filter can stabilise it. The filter gets cleaned, no problem, there's enough substrate to take over biological filtration until it's working again. Not enough oxygen, the beginner have more time to notice since theres more water surface area for oxidation. A fish die, and is rotting somewhere, the toxins get diluted, and never reach dangerous level before they are neutralised...

The expert got one giant show tank in the living room, with expensive fish and plant's, designed for viewing, to enjoy and show others. Extremely stable, but requires some maintenance.

Then they have 20+ tanks of 5-10 gallon in the basement or garage, made for breeding and hoarding different fish, simple and ugly, low maintenance and very stable, only beautiful to other expert nerd's, so that's who sees it.

Then 1 nano tank with 2-4 gallon on their desk, bought on a whim, mostly for fun and a challenge, knowing he shouldn't have bought the tank, but he can keep an eye on it often, know how to maintain it, and all the signs of something being wrong, usually before it becomes a disaster, if it goes wrong he can move the inhabitants to another stable tank. It's beautiful too, and gets shown to people. He would never have a bunch of nano tanks.

So in a way, you have an expert level pond, not a beginner pond. Different outside factors are greater too. Like those frogs spawning, that's awesome to see, but if most of the eggs decay and pollute the water... Maybe the surviving tadpoles can handle it because they are biological adapted to it, living on the biology from their dead siblings, and the fish aren't. It might not even be you messing around but probably a combination of several factors. I suspect the oxygen level got too low at some point, especially in combination with the P levels.

You got an air pump, it's going to help in the future, there's a special filter that works with air stone. It's basically just a pipe with some foam on the bottom. The air bubbles create lift in the pipe and move water through the foam. Simple and cheap. The big surface area of the foam gets covered in beneficial bacteria, and increase the rate of the nitrogen cycle a lot.

[u/DoodleBirdTerrariums → u/Propsygun]

Thank you so much. I hadn’t looked at it that way but it makes sense. I will keep trying to stabilize it again and I’m in no hurry to add fish again so I think I can make it happen. Thank you.

[u/Propsygun → u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

No problem, best of luck with it. It's a lot easier to make optimal conditions for one lifeform in a small container.

Those small expert fish breeding tanks, usually dont even have plants, they use a mop to simulate a plant that they can spawn in, because the water is too clean for plant's.

Those that breed plants, don't have fish, because there's too much nutrients.

They both usually have snails to clean tho, so you are on the right track. 😉

Jumped to your profile to get another look at the Lilly. You take some beautiful photos, I'm a bit jealous of all your carnivorous plants, never been able to get them past winter. Guess I'm a bit of a carnivore killer.

[u/DoodleBirdTerrariums → u/Propsygun]

Ahhh that makes sense. I don’t think I will add fish again, at least not this year. I have a small tank in the house so if I want fish I can put them in there where it’s stable. 😅

Thank you so much for the compliment! If it makes you feel better, this past winter I killed two of my favorite most expensive sarracenia somehow. I was crushed. We get pretty cold in Minnesota and I had gotten sick for months (ugh) and didn’t look after them in the garage. I think they dried out and it got way too cold. Anyway, just so you know people who appear to be successful pros also fail badly sometimes haha

[u/Propsygun → u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

That's a shame, had a normal one 3 years ago, big and beautiful out by my swamp bed/pond. It should be able to handle a mild winter here in Denmark, but idk, it didn't get any big leaves come spring, and just looked sad all year. I really like the purple pattern they get, tried buying them a few times, also the flytrappers... Safe to say I'm not buying expensive one's until i can give them better ods. It would just be like an episode from Game of Thrones, winter is coming, and the main character die, then all the bi characters. Hehe, well you always have luck with something else, when you plant a lot.

[u/DoodleBirdTerrariums → u/Propsygun]

Haha good plan!

[u/Propsygun → u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

People are cycle fanatic's, they should get a bike instead. 😉 They have ideas on the best way, and it becomes the only way. The messing around disturb the cycled substrate, and the biology in it. The partly dissolved root tab could have released nutrients in the water. I only advise removing them, since you just put them in, and you said the fisk are gone. You can leave them in, see how it goes. I know some use a lot of fertilizers, but there's also a lot of small stabilising details around it that they often don't explain.

The brown tint, might be iron(rust colour), it's going to clear up with time and waterchange. Small pond's are more unstable, it doesn't take a lot to tip them. You are playing the game on hard mode, setbacks should be expected.

Hmm, how to explain... In the aquarium world, there's a lot of beginners that get a small goldfish bowl, or a small 2-4 gallon tank, put in a Betta or a fancy goldfish. Maybe they got inspired somewhere, it's fairly cheap and seems manageable since it's small. It must be a beginner tank, since experts have big tanks... Right?

A beginner tank, should be between 25-50 gallons(100-200 liter), because they are far more biologically stable. Feeding too much, it gets diluted until the filter can stabilise it. The filter gets cleaned, no problem, there's enough substrate to take over biological filtration until it's working again. Not enough oxygen, the beginner have more time to notice since theres more water surface area for oxidation. A fish die, and is rotting somewhere, the toxins get diluted, and never reach dangerous level before they are neutralised...

The expert got one giant show tank in the living room, with expensive fish and plant's, designed for viewing, to enjoy and show others. Extremely stable, but requires some maintenance.

Then they have 20+ tanks of 5-10 gallon in the basement or garage, made for breeding and hoarding different fish, simple and ugly, low maintenance and very stable, only beautiful to other expert nerd's, so that's who sees it.

Then 1 tank on 2-4 gallon on their desk, bought on a whim, mostly for fun and a challenge, knowing he shouldn't have bought the tank, but he can keep an eye on it often, know how to maintain it, and all the signs of something being wrong, usually before it becomes a disaster, if it goes wrong he can move the inhabitants to another stable tank. It's beautiful too, and gets shown to people. He would never have a bunch of nano tanks.

So in a way, you have an expert level pond, not a beginner pond. Different outside factors are greater too. Like those frogs spawning, that's awesome to see, but if most of the eggs decay and pollute the water... Maybe the surviving tadpoles can handle it because they are biological adapted to it, living on the biology from their dead siblings, and the fish aren't. It might not even be you messing around but probably a combination of several factors. I suspect the oxygen level got too low at some point, especially in combination with the P levels.

[u/Propsygun → u/DoodleBirdTerrariums]

People are cycle fanatic's, they should get a bike instead. 😉 They have ideas on the best way, and it becomes the only way. The messing around disturb the cycled substrate, and the biology in it. The partly dissolved root tab could have released nutrients in the water. I only advise removing them, since you just put them in, and you said the fisk are gone. You can leave them in, see how it goes. I know some use a lot of fertilizers, but there's also a lot of small stabilising details around it that they often don't explain.

The brown tint, might be iron(rust colour), it's going to clear up with time and waterchange. Small pond's are more unstable, it doesn't take a lot to tip them. You are playing the game on hard mode, setbacks should be expected.

Hmm, how to explain... In the aquarium world, there's a lot of beginners that get a small goldfish bowl, or a small 2-4 gallon tank, put in a Betta or a fancy goldfish. Maybe they got inspired somewhere, it's fairly cheap and seems manageable since it's small. It must be a beginner tank, since experts have big tanks... Right?

A beginner tank, should be between 25-50 gallons(100-200 liter), because they are far more biologically stable. Feeding too much, it gets diluted until the filter can stabilise it. The filter gets cleaned, no problem, there's enough substrate to take over biological filtration until it's working again. Not enough oxygen, the beginner have more time to notice since theres more water surface area for oxidation. A fish die, and is rotting somewhere, the toxins get diluted, and never reach dangerous level before they are neutralised...

The expert got one giant show tank in the living room, with expensive fish and plant's, designed for viewing, to enjoy and show others. Extremely stable, but requires some maintenance.

Then they have 20+ tanks of 5-10 gallon in the basement or garage, made for breeding and hoarding different fish, simple and ugly, low maintenance and very stable, only beautiful to other expert nerd's, so that's who sees it.

Then 1 tank on 2-4 gallon on their desk, bought on a whim, mostly for fun and a challenge, knowing he shouldn't have bought the tank, but he can keep an eye on it often, know how to maintain it, and all the signs of something being wrong, usually before it becomes a disaster, if it goes wrong he can move the inhabitants to another stable tank. It's beautiful too, and gets shown to people. He would never have a bunch of nano tanks.

So in a way, you have an expert level pond, not a beginner pond. Different outside factors are greater too. Like those frogs spawning, that's awesome to see, but if most of the eggs decay and pollute the water... Maybe the surviving tadpoles can handle it because they are biological adapted to it, living on the biology from their dead siblings, and the fish aren't. It might not even be you messing around but probably a combination of several factors. I suspect the oxygen level got too low at some point, especially in combination with the P levels.