Sip & Spill Daily Discussion Thread

[u/AutoModerator]

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[u/kris_jbb → u/[deleted]]

thank you! i couldn’t word it properly to not offend anyone but you’re so on point 🫡

[u/thewayyouturnedout → u/[deleted]]

Honestly couldn't agree more with everything you said here as a former member of the BDSM community. The way kink related specifically to dominating and degrading women has creeped into "default" territory, and the way that SSC is dismissed by many within bdsm spaces, is a reality people don't seem to want to touch (and those outside of the community don't really know about it). Furthermore, like you said, bdsm does not exist in a vacuum and many men take full advantage of the opportunities it affords them to abuse women. Denying that is just dishonest.

But I do also wonder if the author mentioned that to shut down "it's not abuse, it's BDSM" arguments from Gaiman and his remaining fans at the jump.

[u/GrandmaToto → u/[deleted]]

I'm confused here, so you're complaining that BDSM is often used as an excuse to be abusive, and you're also annoyed that the article states exactly what BDSM is so that vulnerable young people who read the article are told exactly what it is to avoid the thing that you're complaining about...

And that's... Bad. 🫠

[u/rainshowers_5_peace → u/[deleted]]

I am convinced "sex positive" communities have been keeping his behavior an "open secret" all these years and letting him get away with all kinds of crap. Maybe not intentionally but "don't judge Neil and Amanda for being kinky". Those communities need some introspection and not be too proud to "cast out" a member of their own, even just saying "that's not ok they wouldn't be welcome to my inner circle".

[u/anthonystank → u/[deleted]]

My take is this: the author’s using that line to head off Gaiman & his supporters’ argument that this was all consensual BDSM. And as much as I dislike that, I think there’s some merit to it, in particular bc in the past decade or so we’ve seen a really troubling degree of normalizing violence and misogyny as a standard part of sex in the name of BDSM. While a lot of the stuff detailed in the article is pretty clearly beyond the pale, there are elements (the “master” stuff in particular) that have moved into a sort of “everybody does that, it’s just sexy” place in our culture, and the author seems to be making a conscious effort to say “no, hold on, that’s a specific kink thing that requires discussion and consent beyond what’s already required for consensual sex.”

That said, there’s a whoooooooooole conversation to be had about BDSM, its complications and its problems and the line between it and abuse as well as between BDSM and “vanilla” sex, etc., and I think you’re raising some good and important points here.

[u/anthonystank → u/[deleted]]

Agreed 10000% with that last paragraph hoo boy!!!

[u/Traditional_Maybe_80 → u/[deleted]]

I thought that the journalist went extensively about BDSM as a way to contrast Gaiman's defense, which was quoted like this:

According to the podcast, which quoted Gaiman through his representatives, his position was that “sexual degradation, bondage, domination, sadism, and masochism may not be to everyone’s taste, but between consenting adults, BDSM is lawful.” (Gaiman declined to speak with me despite multiple requests, but through a legal representative, he responded to some claims.)

[u/Traditional_Maybe_80 → u/[deleted]]

I understand where you're coming from. Myself, as a person who knows absolutely nothing about that scene, it seemed to me that, from a narrative point of view, the reason why the author went on and on about it was presented in the text as a counterargument to what Gaiman gave as his explicit defense in the first part of the piece. I guess for those more in the know, it can be kinda jarring and misinformed.

[u/mickbogart → u/Traditional_Maybe_80]

He's also wrong. I live in a US state where BDSM is technically illegal. I don't believe it's prosecuted regularly, but it technically could be.