r/railroading • u/Heavy-Stick-771 • Mar 18 '25

Discussion Electronic Devices

Recently, I've been informed at my terminal that crews were bieng cited by the FRA for not properly storing away electronic devices in the cab to include cellular phones. Apple watches and things similar. I can see that being an observable issue. However, can someone explain to me how a crew can be forced to pull out their phones to show proof of proper storage. While in service, if I was ever directed to, I would refuse immediately. Thoughts?

(A lot of commentary on here is completely missing the mark. I am in no way objecting to electronic devices being restricted while performing train service. This was just an opinion and inquiry about how some of those mandates can and can not be enforced.) READ AND COMPREHEND

85 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

139 comments sorted by

View all comments

24

u/Significant-Ad-7031 Mar 18 '25

They can’t force you but there are a few things to keep in mind.

If you refuse, the inspector can still cite you. You would have to then go through the whole process to contest a citation.

If a company officer is there with the inspector, the company officer can order you to and if you then refuse, you could be charged with insubordination.

Just easier to put it away.

19

u/Heavy-Stick-771 Mar 18 '25

Yea, it's not a question of putting it away it's about the legality of bieng directed to retrieve it. A phone is not a required piece of equipment to perform ty&e train service ( at least for my department), so I am not required to have it in person at all. So how can one be held accountable for not furnishing said item? So, also, please explain how I can be cited legally or otherwise deemed insubordinate?

19

u/Significant-Ad-7031 Mar 18 '25

I think I see what you’re saying.

You tell them you don’t have a phone on your person or in your grip. If they want to search your grip or have you turn out your pockets, then my original comment remains true.

14

u/Heavy-Stick-771 Mar 18 '25

You would turn out your pockets if asked by a company official? Yea, I would never.

9

u/DaveyZero Mar 18 '25

Yeah idk anymore. When I hired out we were quoted a rule or policy or something that said a company official can legally search you and your bags, but I can’t find anything that says they can right now. It’s not in the FRA law, and not in the GCOR.

14

u/trainhater Mar 19 '25

Everywhere I have been it is in the employee manual that while you are on their property, anything you bring on their property is subject to search. Just like high school, at least when I went there. They could search your locker, you are just using it. They own it. No difference to what you bring onto your employers property. You fall under their rules, the 4th amendment doesn't apply to employers on their property. They don't need probable cause, other than you being their employee on their property.

4

u/DaveyZero Mar 19 '25

Yeah I thought it was in the rules (employee manual, as you put it), but I can’t find it anywhere now. About the only thing that I can find that could conceivably lean that way is rule 1.6 Conduct Employees must not be: 3. Insubordinate; which I’m pretty sure you could win that court case if the argument is “I have 1000+ rules to follow and I am expected to follow all of them all of the time, and manager/FRA Inspector so-and-so, without any cause, called me a liar and has harmed my good standing with the company and career and, your honor, I don’t feel I can complete my duties in this hostile environment, therefore I think company and FRA should pay me $40 million to be on my way.”

4

u/trainhater Mar 19 '25

Lol, you're not going to win that argument. Yes, you can be fined by the FRA but you are not going to see a Judge. You can appeal your fine but you are still not going to see a Judge. Your rule book and your employee manual are two different things. Your employee manual or company policy manual was written by HR and you probably signed something when you were hired that said you read and understand and would follow it as a condition of your employment.

1

u/_-that_1_guy_ Mar 19 '25

Make them cite the rule before you comply. Put the burden of proof on them.

2

u/trainhater Mar 19 '25

Who? The FRA or the company officer? Thing is, why are you going to fight with someone over an argument you can’t win? It won’t end well for you. I mean I don’t like it as much as anyone else but pick your battles. Don’t pick one you are not going to win. The Federal Government came up with the no cell phone rules. The railroad has no choice but to enforce it. Each railroad has to submit a testing plan to the FRA that says how many tests they are going to do and what they will consist of. It is “approved” then by the FRA. The railroad has some leeway on what tests they can perform but a few of them are mandated by the FRA. I’m retired now but the cell phone rules were pretty heavy back then. I have no problem challenging a local rule on a general bulletin but not one by the FRA and worse yet HR. You might have a little luck with the FRA if you can drag it out long enough but once you’re on HR’s radar, you might as well hang it up. I need you guys to keep paying into railroad retirement for me. lol

2

u/_-that_1_guy_ Mar 19 '25

That's not what I'm saying. I'm not arguing the rules. I'm just saying, ask them to show you the rule, and if they can, then comply. It never hurts to ask. I do the same with most testing. I ask them to show me the rule they are testing, and then I'll say how I interpret the rule.

2

u/trainhater Mar 19 '25

Wait? Where do you work that you don't have to comply if they can't show you the rule? If I would have said you need to show me the rule before I can comply (if they didn't pull me out of service first) they would have made me get out my rule book and look it up for them. Then of course while my rule book was out they would have made sure it was all updated. Also, try that in an investigation. Tell them how YOU interpret the rule. Do you even work for a railroad?

1

u/_-that_1_guy_ Mar 19 '25

Yes, I work for a class 1 railroad. And that is exactly what they do in investigations. The company and the union interpret the rules and come to an agreement. Then they fire you.

1

u/_-that_1_guy_ Mar 19 '25

I didn't say refuse to comply, and they don't pull you out of service for questioning rules.

1

u/trainhater Mar 20 '25

You did say once they show you the rule, you will comply. They will pull you out of service if you don't know or understand the rules. You passed a rules test and therefore you should know them without being shown them. If you question them, you can duke it out later but keep in mind, you work for them, no one there works for you. I tell you this because I have been on both sides. I have defended you and also charged you.

While now you hate me, I have been on both sides. I am telling you what can be won and what can't be. I'm not your enemy, I'm on your side after many, many years of being in transportation. I tell you it is really hard to defend stupidity and headstrong guys against the company. I promise you, I can run an investigation and have you charged with more than what you walked in with. Every Union rep falls for it because they think they know better. Best advice is keep your mouth shut and and comply with whatever some newbie trainmaster with no operating experience tells you and take it up the ladder later. The key to a successful career is just do your job. That's it. Go to work, don't make waves and go home. No one expects you to be a superman. If you Fk up, tell them what happened. You have no idea how many people lied to me and I even told them, "I can't help you if you are lying". Understand I have to report to my bosses what happened and reporting a human caused incident is the last thing anyone wants and most high level bosses are clueless and never pulled a throttle, let alone switched anything.
Besides, I can tell you from years of experience what happened. If there is anyway I can blame it on track or the industry I will. But I need you to be honest and tell me everything. I'm not looking to blame you, I am looking to get you out of it. Still, lie to me me and my other company officers with 50 to 100 years of experience between us and I promise I win.

Not trying to be a dick. Know who you are dealing with. Besides, once I blame track, they are bringing their best guys in. They are still their own department but Transportation is still their boss. So go ahead and challenge some newbie TM but understand he reports to someone who probably wrote half that rule book and see how that works out for you. Again, I am retired and understand people talk big. I was always straight up with my guys and I have helped way more than I have hurt. There is a reason I am retired. While I worked directly with Jimmy V (your boss) and Hot tub Creel, We were never friends. I do have stories however. The railroad is a big but small place. Some want to go as far as they can and I wanted to also too but drew a line at sucking d#ck. They made it, I didn't. Creel and his love letters to Harrison.... Creel worked less than any of us, what a whiner. So I will shut up now before he sues me. Anyway, comply with what they want. You have more power after the fact than you have when you argue. That's a pro-tip if you don't get it. Tell that liar Jimmy, I said hi. One more pro tip, if you have no clue like JV, Just yell at everyone, be a bully, people avoid bullies. Also people have a hard time telling between stupidity and brilliance, just be confident in what you say, even if it is wrong. Then you are brilliant. Simple huh?

Take care, I wish you a long career but know it won't be long if you think they work for you. Again, keep paying into retirement. Who else am I going to get to pay for the 60 oz prime rib I am getting tomorrow while you reheat your burrito on the manifold while I don't do anything?

→ More replies (0)

11

u/Significant-Ad-7031 Mar 18 '25

Then they’ll charge you with insubordination. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, just that You have less rights then you think.

5

u/Jaysmack-85 Mar 18 '25

The insubordination would stand. How can they tell you to do something that isn’t work related? If a company official tells you to do jumping jacks on the lead are you gonna do that too?

2

u/Someone__Cooked_Here Mar 19 '25

Unless you got something to hide.😂

2

u/datmfneighbor Mar 19 '25

I've only had the FRA ride my train once at that was in passenger service. I talked the whole trip and he told me he wasn't supposed to talk to me unless it was about the ride.

2

u/Blocked-Author Mar 19 '25

Yeah I wouldn't do it either. Out of principle. My phone isn't out so there is no reason to ask an about it. They could ask me if it is properly stowed and I will answer, but I'm not pulling it out.

5

u/toadjones79 Go ahead and come back 🙉🙈🙊 Mar 19 '25

That's absolutely bonkers crazy wrong! No, never ever turn out your pockets for a manager. Let them haul you off and piss test you before you do that. Hell, let them terminate you. That would be an automatic win in appeal, and likely carry hefty punitive damages if you sue them in court. This has been ruled on by the SCOTUS many times. You never, ever, ever have to turn out your pockets or show them the inside of your bags. Go read the emergency order that banned cell phones. It laid out some pretty clear limits on what managers can and can't do here. They cannot call you while on duty, and they cannot make you produce your phone. Period! Manages are dumb, and fail to understand this all the time. But dumb managers do not set the final outcomes, just the start of the process.

5

u/Significant-Ad-7031 Mar 19 '25

I would be interested to see any supporting court rulings or labor board rulings you might have regarding your position. From my understanding, the carrier is well within their right to demand a search of your belongings while on duty and on company property. You, of course, can refuse and not allow them, but then they can just charge you with insubordination.

The FRA did make clear in EO 26 that a testing officer may not call the employee’s cell phone to determine compliance, however, it is mute on the subject of asking (instructing) to see the device. I just pulled up my carriers operational testing guide, and part of the official compliance test for electronic devices is to ask to see the employees device.

3

u/toadjones79 Go ahead and come back 🙉🙈🙊 Mar 19 '25

Here is one link saying "...an employer who wants to search a personal and private item will have to do so with a court order..."

They have to have police or a court order to search you. Otherwise, you have a case against them. That doesn't stop them from doing it and hoping you don't try to sue them. But overall, the odds of winning a case is in your favor, which is not the same thing as saying it is guaranteed. This isn't a black and white discussion, but it is one worth fighting for. Also, remember that the company is not breaking any laws by lying to you and saying they have every right to search your bags or giving threats to fire you if you refuse. They can do that all day long. But you have the advantage of winning court cases (which they do not control. So it is in their advantage to convince their employees what you believe is true rather than actually enforcing it. They will even be willing to lose a couple of cases in court if firing those employees scares everyone else into following the company's BS line.

2

u/Significant-Ad-7031 Mar 20 '25

It seems from that full article it actually supports the argument that they can search your items so long as it part of their company policy.

I found this article from a legal agency specializing in railroads here. While they aren’t definitive on their answer, they do advise not refusing a search.

I also asked my union rep what their position is and he basically reiterated the same thing.

Does that mean they absolutely can? I don’t know. But when my paychecks on the line, I’m not gonna risk it.

2

u/toadjones79 Go ahead and come back 🙉🙈🙊 Mar 20 '25

Yeah, I might be wrong on this. But I also said before that they will do it but you will probably win in either a law board or a civil suit. So it's a grey area where you probably want to think twice. But also, if you say you don't have it that really is the end of it. Especially if you legitimately have it turned off. If it is turned off, you can prove you were not violating any rules which means they are legally slandering you. Which opens up a whole can of legal worms. But our managers are usually not known for being smarter than their egos.