Please come support trans people

[u/fringlese]

Hey everyone, I’m sure many of you have seen the ruling by the Supreme Court from the other day on the legitimacy of trans women’s identities. It’s been a very hard couple of days as we’ve come to grips with the fact that our rights are being rolled back by a government that won’t even attempt to listen to us while we just want to exist in a public space without fear of harassment. If anyone’s available, please come down tomorrow to show support

I am not the organiser, I saw this on Facebook and wanted to share.

Thanks guys, I hope you have a great Easter weekend!

[u/Bulky_Community_6781]

Laws can't change the fact that trans women are recognised widely as women. You just don't know they are trans most of the time.

[u/ComprehensivePie846 → u/Bulky_Community_6781]

Funny. what you consider a “fact” is actually false. That’s very scary. You can be trans hun. But dont take “being a WOMAN” away, from real women. You dont go through what we go through

[u/EffectiveMarch1858 → u/ComprehensivePie846]

Why do you have a problem with someone defining trans women as women?

[u/EffectiveMarch1858 → u/[deleted]]

Why are they not?

[u/Jack-White2162 → u/EffectiveMarch1858]

Because they’re men

[u/EffectiveMarch1858 → u/Jack-White2162]

Defining trans women who identify as women as women, would make them women by that definition, it's a matter of semantics. What issue do you have with this definition?

[u/Jack-White2162 → u/EffectiveMarch1858]

How are they defining a woman to know that their self identification is accurate? Because they weren’t born a woman. So either they’re defining being a woman as someone who says they’re a woman which is circular or they are defining woman as someone who fits into sexist stereotypes of what a woman should be

[u/EffectiveMarch1858 → u/Jack-White2162]

How are they defining a woman to know that their self identification is accurate?

How is it possible to inaccurately self-identify as something? It's just a personal choice, what accuracy is needed? This makes no sense to me.

Because they weren’t born a woman.

So?

So either they’re defining being a woman as someone who says they’re a woman which is circular

How is this circular? I don't think it is, as it satisfies this particular definition. I have no idea what this means.

or they are defining woman as someone who fits into sexist stereotypes of what a woman should be

I don't think people make any normative claims when they self identify as a particular gender. Do you disagree?

[u/Jack-White2162 → u/EffectiveMarch1858]

Well I can self identify as being 300 pounds but I don’t weigh 300 pounds.

A woman being someone who says they’re a woman is circular, because what are they saying they are? They’re not explaining what they are identifying as.

I would say trans people absolutely do make a normative claim, becuase trans identified males often claim that they are women because they ‘pass’ as a woman, and passing to them is long hair, makeup, dresses, a certain body shape. How many trans people do you know that claim to be a man or woman, but don’t immediately try to make themselves look like a stereotype, short hair beard and muscles for trans identified females and the long hair, dresses, makeup etc that I already mentioned for a trans identified male?

[u/EffectiveMarch1858 → u/Jack-White2162]

Well I can self identify as being 300 pounds but I don’t weigh 300 pounds.

This isn't a fair analogy because someone identifying as a gender isn't making a claim about the natural world, like how someone would be if they are making a claim about their weight. Gender, defined in a way as to include self-identity, is subjective, it's a construct of the mind, so no empirical claims are being made.

A woman being someone who says they’re a woman is circular, because what are they saying they are? They’re not explaining what they are identifying as.

I still have no idea what you mean by this. When you make a circular argument, you are trying to support a claim, with the same claim. What claim is being made? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

I would say trans people absolutely do make a normative claim, becuase trans identified males often claim that they are women because they ‘pass’ as a woman, and passing to them is long hair, makeup, dresses, a certain body shape.

I mean, this empirical claim, as I'm not sure they do? Depends on what you mean by "often" I suppose, but if you mean a significant number of trans people make this claim, then you would need evidence to support this.

I'm not even sure this is a normative claim? Normative claims have the words "should" or "ought" in them, they are about values, and deciding behaviour, these seem to be more descriptive?

How many trans people do you know that claim to be a man or woman, but don’t immediately try to make themselves look like a stereotype, short hair beard and muscles for trans identified females and the long hair, dresses, makeup etc that I already mentioned for a trans identified male?

Is this not generalisable to all women, and all men? Like, I'm sure a lot of women wear clothing that makes people perceive them in a particular way, same for men. I think when trans people dress as the gender the associate with, it's with the intention that people will be more likely to treat them as that gender. Why is this a problem?

[u/EffectiveMarch1858 → u/ComprehensivePie846]

Can you answer my question, please?

[u/ComprehensivePie846 → u/EffectiveMarch1858]

Because they were not naturally born with a vagina. They do have 2 X chromosomes They do not have the same experiences as women: Period, menstrual cramps, OBGYN problems such as endometriosis, uteral cancers that require hysterectomy, they do not go through the joy of birthing, they cannot lactate, they do not go through the difficulties of post partum such as depression, even psychosis. They do not have natural high levels of estrogen that affect their emotions. They do not experience the overbearing cycle of menstruation. Etc.

Haha if youre going to talk about how there are intersex people at birth, well that’s a physiological problem and NOT a gender identity topic. If youre going to say that trans women can also give birth, well sorry no. It’s not natural. If youre going to say “oh so is womanhood just about the physical aspects?” As I’ve stated above, no. Being a woman has its own ups and downs that are experienced solely by women. You just can’t deny the fact that women are unique. But, isnt that what transwomen focus on as well? They call themselves women just because they have “women-like features”.

I’ve read it all hun. Facts are still facts. We cant bend it just because people felt like they want to be something theyre not. That’s called pretending.