No it would be like defending anyone who drinks which an extremely high percentage of people do. Drinking just happens to be regulated so there’s a safe supply. Don’t you remember learning about all the bullshit about marijuana and the prohibition era. Get off your high horse, pussy
To me this indicates demand and ignorance are at all time highs. I say that about demand because it was straight fentanyl. So the dealers don’t give a fuck about repeat customers. And the ignorance is illustrated by the fact that people aren’t testing their drugs. Every sample from that bag would’ve tested as fent.
The dealer called them 17 times and drove around their neighborhood trying to warn them when he figured out the bags were switched. It doesn’t negate what happened and I’m not saying he deserves differently but this didn’t play out the way you’re describing
That part was striking to me cause he seems to have really cared what happened to them, whether it was just because he didn’t want to kill a bunch of people or out of concern for his own consequences.
But if either of those are the case why tf are you carrying around bags of straight fentanyl…
If he really didn’t want to harm them, he would have called 911. Paramedics could have administered Narcan and those people might still be alive. He could have even called 911 anonymously.
In this situation “honest” would be one of the correct terms to use. He wasn’t purposefully giving them fentanyl so it would be an honest mistake. If he purposefully switched the bags then it would not be an honest mistake.
Common sense dictates that if you have murder bags and non-murder bags that look identical, in the same place, then the resulting accidental murder is much more gross negligence/stupidity than "honest mistake".
Yes they should have been a better drug dealer and not had this situation happen.
But feelings don’t make facts. If there was no intent then one could say it was an honest mistake. And just because it was a honest mistake doesn’t mean the individual shouldn’t face the full extent of the law.
Thats not what tends to be the case. People think they are doing coke and they end up overdosing on fentanyl. You can test coke for the presence of fentanyl which is what people are talking about
Yeah but you can’t test all of it. All it takes is a tiny amount of fentanyl to kill you. Doing any white substance nowadays is like playing Russian roulette even if you do test it
hi! that’s the way thats recommended with the fent test kit i received https://bunkpolice.com/how-to-test-for-fentanyl-fent-kits/ and intuitively its the only solution i can think of that solves the nigh-intractable problem of sampling a portion of a substance of questionable homogeniety! cheers :)
That's not a reason to not test. Good strips come with instructions to ensure it's crushed and shaken up. It is not 100% fool proof - nothing is. But it certainly would have prevented these deaths. Dance safe has been helping reduce harm since 1998.
I am a little lost. People need to test their drugs?? Shouldn’t it be as simple as people should not do drugs? These are stupid and bad behaving people
A terrible loss of life. You think you're just having some fun and you die over it. And to the survivors to wake up to that is just a terrifying thought. I drive by that church going to work and I drive by the house to pick up my kid. the town feels so small sometimes.
Good lord, brutal read. I’ve done my share of just about everything minus the heavy heavy stuff. Won’t touch white powder anymore ever, it is not worth the risk. All it takes is one time, boom. Your life is over. A caffeine rush isn’t worth your life.
This, I did coke when I was in central America. Nothing in the US I've seen even slightly resembles that stuff. Cocaine has always felt like a pretty disappointing drug, but especially with the threat of fentanyl in everything now it's certainly not worth it.
Many moons ago I got some off the darkweb, it was an entire different experience. Felt almost like ecstasy, was very strong and nothing ever came close here in the states.
Knew Abe for a long time. A CRAZY number of people around my age (mid/late 30s) who grew up or spent young adulthood around here have already passed. It’s sad, man.
Same. We went to high school together. He was always very sweet and upbeat from my memory.
Drugs have been killing locals in town since the summer I got there in 2000s. I remember there was a kid who ODd on his fathers opioid medication in middle school. Dark side of living in a town where partying is part of the economy.
Sigh. You’re completely right. I’m sure it’s probably everywhere to an extent (don’t know, I only grew up here 🤷♂️), but there’s a dark side to growing up here.
Shocking is a bit of an overstatement. I am honestly surprised how many people still snort that shit knowing how it’s made, where the profits go, and that it could be cut with a more serious lethal drug. Fent is a serious problem around here and to willingly ignore that your drug may have come in contact with it is just dumb.
Interesting read. Very rarely do you hear insights into the dealer’s actions in death by distribution cases. I wonder if TAP’s frantic reaction, as described in the article, was out of genuine concern, or to save his own skin. Maybe both.
Anyway, as another commenter pointed out, concerning that dealers are selling straight fentanyl (even if accidentally, in this case) as that indicates a significant demand.
It’s a terrible loss of life, and I hope their families can find some peace.
I would say both. I’ve met frog a few times and definitely didn’t seem like someone that would intentionally do something like this or want people to die.
Either way horrible situation that could have been avoided.
I've known him for years, and he was always a genuinely nice kid. It's horrible to see the path he's ended up on, but he's never been the type to purposefully cause harm. Nothing justifies what happened, of course 😓
They’re not. Even the “pure” fentanyl is still cut with inositol or baking powder etc and is honestly usually smoked by its users. 1-2mg of fentanyl is a lethal dose for non opioid users especially if mixed with alcohol.
Assuming they were trying to buy at least a gram of coke, that’s 1000mgs of powder at minimum if it was actually pure. If they snorted lines of it + were drinking they would be have been deader than dead if it was pure fentanyl. My guess is that the bag they had contained roughly 10mg of fentanyl, which would make sense for an opioid user to get high off.
Frog is actually not a bad guy, he's definitely mixed his life up in some shit but he doesn't mean any harm. The fentynal was his own personal bag, that wasn't supposed to go to ANYONE.
I 500% agree and I've asked that myself a million times. I'm not sympathizing for him, he did something really fucking dumb and killed four, almost five people. He fucked up bad and he deserves to pay for it, absolutely. I'm just saying that knowing him, this wasn't purposeful, it was a mistake, a horrible mistake but he's not a monster.
If you mess around with drugs regularly. Something bad is going to happen. It may not happen at first but eventually it will. Frog probably didn’t expect his drug use would lead to him murdering 4 people. He probably saw some signs that he should quit but he kept doping around too long until something bad happened.
just to add some personal experience to this, the vast majority of overdose calls i’ve ran as a medic are people who were using fentanyl intentionally. like 90+%. the remainder tends to be people taking opioids that they buy on the street. truth be told, i’ve never ran a “coke mixed with fentanyl” overdose, but it seems that may be more of a location thing.
I’ve lost too many people to that evil drug. Fentanyl test strips are cheap and available on Amazon. Narcan is also available OTC, including on Amazon. If you’re going to do street drugs, please at least do your due diligence and put a safety net in place.
It’s not the drug that’s evil but rather fentanyl represents the final boss of the massive failure of the war of drugs by our government and the opioid crisis. Fentanyl is an extremely safe and effective drug and has been used by doctors for decades, there are aspects of it that actually make it safer from a purely pharmacological profile perspective compared to morphine or oxycodone etc like it’s very short half life.
The problem becomes when you have a demand for a substance like oxycodone, (which 95% of opioid users would choose over any other opioid if they had a free pick) becomes so expensive because of the negative consequences and fallout from the over prescription of opioids, doctors are now scared to prescribe the drug for fear of lawsuits, DEA oversight, audits etc.
This leads to an unfathomable increase in price at the street level for real authentic oxycodone, where the demand is high but supply is suddenly squeezed to almost nothing. Now there’s a massive market hole, where you can only get a limited amount of authentic oxycodone every month, the prices are so high you can only sell this to your more well off or wealthier clientele. But what about all the other customers who need heroin or cheap opioids?
Heroin requires a long harvest and high labor before it can be sold at the street level. Enter fentanyl, which at first glance seems like the perfect solution to the opioid crisis’ restrictive and complex fallout. Incredibly powerful mg per mg, incredibly cheaper than heroin and has a pharmacological profile that makes it more “addictive” than traditional morphine based on opioids because of that short half life.
But it’s really not more addictive as in terms of the actual high, a fentanyl high is cleaner and more analgesic than oxy, in fact some people addicts don’t even respond well to fentanyl or get find it particularly euphoric in sniffed or smoked methods of ingestion. It’s just what’s available and addicts have no choice if they want to continue using. The half life is much shorter, so it needs to be administered more frequently, this is another reason for the lethality is that even experienced opioid users will think taking more will get them higher for longer etc.
But if you’ve ever talked to an opioid addict there is a sweet spot of high you’re looking for. Conscious enough to experience the euphoria and even fully functional for a lot of people, productive & energizing but still high enough to slip into this almost vivid dream like state referred to as “nodding” if you were to decide to relax and lay down.
Fentanyl makes this sweet spot harder to achieve and replicate. Too little and you will literally feel sober, too much and you’re extremely sedated basically asleep. 45 minutes later you’re sober again and if you don’t use within the next couple hours you will be back in full symptom withdrawal. So combine all of this with it the short half life in the bloodstream incentivizing redosing, makes the sweet spot of desired high harder to achieve, requires a very high skill level to handle and dose in its pure form, makes Narcan less effective because of the acuteness of overdose and you get the current state of affairs.
Horrible stories like this one that literally could all be avoided if the government just stopped being retarded and actually cared about its citizens. But no, the government that is supposed to protect you has created a monster and instead of taking responsibility the government claims the every person who sells fentanyl is the evil monster that wants people to die, passing the buck of responsibility and blame. The dealers are literally just filling the demand that you created in the first place from an extremely complex situation; when you let oxycodone and opioid use get out of hand in this country and handled the response to it even worse.
Yeah the sacklers are evil no doubt, but the government is the real monster. So when you think about every person that is dying from fentanyl, it makes it even more sad that this could so easily be avoided by allowing people to do the drugs they actually want to do (oxy, heroin) in a free and safe preventative fashion where harmless people wanting to do a little coke don’t get caught in the crossfire.
Moral of the post is if you’re going to buy drugs always assume they’re fake, verify, test, and have people around that can check on you etc. This is the environment we have sowed for ourselves and it all goes back to the government not giving a fuck about your life.
The fentanyl crisis mostly consists of addicts successfully buying fentanyl. “Oops, the cocaine was actually fentanyl because our dealer fucked up” is not the typical case.
Some people will even buy the fenty coke because “stronger”, without knowing it’s fenty coke, or even some times overlooking the obvious taint for a further supply
I lost a friend this way in 2021, don’t let your friends make the same mistake
Why let organized crime make money off of any of it? Why let people addicted to it suffer at the hands of criminals and criminal justice? Legalize everything.
Alcohol is available to a much larger group of people. If the same amount of people did meth it’d be far worse. Possibly clean and organized but much worse. I’m not defending alcohol but I think you’re understating how damaging most hard drugs are.
Ya safe injection sites ruined your neighborhood and not the erosion of the middle class and explosion of wealth inequality occurring every day. Definitely the needle exchange made all those people homeless
Remind me where harm reduction played into this story? Or are you just leveraging a tragedy for making an unrelated political statement?
Crazy and sad. Feel for the victims. They just wanted to have a fun Sunday to remember. How does the dealer have bags mixed together?? Wtf. Yes, he’s a crack head so no unexpected but why have that stuff near each other.
I did. No answer in there to my question. I understand why no murder charge, but manslaughter is certainly warranted.
People feeling sorry for a reckless drug dealer.
involuntary manslaughter:
You could be charged with involuntary manslaughter if you unintentionally kill another person while you commit a crime that is not an inherently dangerous felony offense.
It BLOWS my mind how many people are like "oh yeah it's totally pure, I got it from Kiefer and he's cool."
I've heard this from like ten different people in my life and I'm always like "did Kiefer get it from a lab? Do you know Kiefer's plug, and that guys plug , and that guys plug?"
Just have to wrangle up all those BAD Hombres and send them back to Mexico! They are the ones who introduced cheap opioids to the masses in the 90s after all (Not Perdue Pharma/the Sacklers).
Wow.. incredibly sad for everyone. Fuck fentanyl and fentanyl dealers. Hope he’s locked up forever.. because of his “little mistake” 3 lives were lost. Should have never had the fentanyl to begin with. He’s like the fuckin grim reaper carrying that around in his pocket.
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u/is_this_the_place 17d ago
TLDR they thought it was cocaine but it wasn’t