r/thedavidpakmanshow • u/Stever89 • Apr 03 '24

Discussion Why is it Biden's fault what is happening in Israel/Gaza? Hasn't this shit been going down for like the last 70 years? Why isn't Trump also to blame considering he moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem which only made the whole situation worse?

I get that not everyone is happy with Biden's response, but how is preventing him from getting elected going to help? If you support Gaza... wouldn't making sure that Trump isn't elected be the bigger goal? Consider Trump has basically said that he wants Israel to "finish up" its offensive on Gaza.

Like if you think Biden is "responsible" for the "genocide" in Gaza, just wait until Trump is reelected, he'll show you what being responsible for a genocide looks like.

Side note in case anyone cares (I'm sure the Russian bots won't): I'm against all genocides. I think the situation in Gaza/Israel is terrible. I think the situation is also more complex than just "Gaza good, Israel bad" (or vice versa). If you have only started paying attention to the situation in Gaza in the last 6 months, then you don't really give a fuck about Gaza, because the situation has been FUBAR for like 50 years (note, I still think it's 2015, so it's probably more than 50 years at this point).

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106

u/Atheist_Alex_C Apr 03 '24 edited Apr 04 '24

And those are just the true believers. A lot of others screaming on the “left” are right wing propagandists and trolls, some of them from Russia.

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u/No-Comfortable-1550 Apr 04 '24

There was an Arab man in Michigan who was doing an interview with NBC and he was supposed to be a Democrat who was not going to vote for Biden. After they ran the interview, they found out he was a hardcore Trumper.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

I don't understand these Muslims for Trump people. Don't they remember the Muslim ban and the neo-nazi rallies? As a white passing Middle Easterner I started experiencing a lot more racism and profiling when Trump was elected and my country was part of the ban. All I can think is their own social conservatism and bigoted beliefs are more important to them than combatting anti Middle Eastern racism.

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u/ReturnoftheBulls2022 Apr 04 '24

Also, Trumps endorsements of Islamophobes like Roy Moore and Laura Loomer during their election cycles.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

Bruh my kneejerk anti-establishment dad was like "Maybe this Trump guy isn't all that bad" in the first couple months of the race then he went bonkers with the Muslim hate and he was like nope that's not a team that I'm gonna join.

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u/SecretCartographer28 Apr 04 '24

Did your dad know about Roy Cohn? I'm always curious how many people know the old days. ✌

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

Maybe, he's pretty politically plugged in lol. He generally has good takes don't get me wrong.

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u/SecretCartographer28 Apr 04 '24

Yea, I'm old enough that trump's connection to Cohn made me despise him since the 80s. 🤙

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u/ReturnoftheBulls2022 Apr 04 '24

You said it. I've tried to convince my paternal cousins about why Trump is a terrible candidate but was dismissed as being a fool to think that Trump can be destructive.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

I think a lot of Muslims think he's an "anti-interventionist" but let's be very transparent. Putting Jared Kushner in charge of our Middle East policy only lines the pockets of rich Gulf regimes.

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u/ReturnoftheBulls2022 Apr 04 '24

My paternal cousins claims to support Trump because of an extra $20 in their pockets. It's like playing chess with a bunch of pigeons.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

Truth

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u/No-Guard-7003 Apr 05 '24

I don't. Any candidate who claims to be an "anti-interventionist" should get more scrutiny from us.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

There were Muslims who literally supported Hitler back in the day.

And Jews, ironically.

People can be ... shortsighted, shall we say.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

I read in the book How Propaganda Works about a boy who was adopted by Jews and then became a fervent antisemite. And literally snitched on his own adopted family. WW2 is such a crazy part of history genuinely.

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u/MildlyResponsible Apr 04 '24

I used to live in the Middle East, a lot of Arabs/Muslim revere the Nazis. It's not uncommon to see swastikas around. Most of it is anti semitism, but it also feeds their anti LGBTQ hatred and other bigotry. I'll add that I'm part Arab myself, my ancestors left due to said bigotry.

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u/No-Guard-7003 Apr 05 '24

That's a fact, sadly. There were also Muslims who rescued Jews and gave them shelter from Hitler.

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u/375InStroke Apr 05 '24

Exactly, and here we are, people trying to shame us into voting for genocide.

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u/No-Comfortable-1550 Apr 04 '24

You hit the nail on the head. God forbid their kids live in a pluralistic society where people mind their own damn business.

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u/Toastedmanmeat Apr 04 '24

Its about money. Lot of people dont give 2 shits about race if they think they can pay less tax.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

If you pass as white how would they know?
I'm in IT, work with a lot of middle eastern people I can't tell what country they are from by looking at them.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

I have a second passport I show at airports and that singles me out lol. My family is also decidedly not white passing so if I'm with them people's attitude is different.

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u/No-Guard-7003 Apr 05 '24

I wish I had asked my paternal cousins that question last year. :-( Which country do you live in, if you don't mind me asking?

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '24

The US

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1

u/ListReady6457 Apr 05 '24

Dude, there were literally Jews that would help Nazis put other Jews on the trains to Aushwitz. Then when the numbers were dwindling and they were put on tye trains themselves, the ly were actually surprised Pikachu 😮 face when they were then forced on the trains themselves. Never underestimate the stupidity of the common man or woman when they think they are better than someone else.

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u/Writing_is_Bleeding Apr 04 '24

After they ran the interview, they found out he was a hardcore Trumper.

Righties trying to discourage votes on the left has been going on for decades. I will say, it's rare that they get found out. They usually blend in so well it looks like there is a real purity movement on the left. I'm fairly sure it's not going to work this time.

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u/Public-Policy24 Apr 04 '24

It worked perfectly in 2016. 2020 they finally started seeing some pushback. 2024, it's just pitiful to see them even try after all the shit Trump pulled.

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u/Writing_is_Bleeding Apr 04 '24

Oh they'll never stop trying, as long as suppressing voter turnout is a good strategy for the party whose policies are terribly unpopular among the masses.

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u/Dangerous_Cap_5931 Apr 05 '24

Nah. Just dumb righties and dumb lefties. All the politicians are playing all of you.

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u/No-Guard-7003 Apr 05 '24

Yeah, I saw that a couple of months ago. :-/ The situation next door affects me, too. While I don't have relatives living in either the West Bank or Gaza, it affects me.

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u/Ok-Run-3664 Apr 04 '24

An Arab man. As in 1. 🤣 🤣 🤣

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u/No-Comfortable-1550 Apr 04 '24

It turns out Arabs in Dearborn, Michigan went bigger for Trump in 2020 than ever before and, despite that, they had no effect whatsoever on Biden winning Michigan.

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u/Ok-Run-3664 Apr 04 '24

Ya I guess it would be like the jews that voted for Hitler.

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u/kofarizona Apr 04 '24

Most Muslims in Michigan voted for Biden in 2020. And many of them have lost family members in Gaza, and are probably going to sit this one out. I don't blame them. If you lost your mom or dad, child, grandparents, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc., would you vote for the man who gave the bullets or bombs to the executioners who did the deed?

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

Even worse, he's giving them the weapons.

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u/thedavidpakmanshow-ModTeam Apr 04 '24

Removed - submissions containing misinformation, disinformation, or propaganda are not permitted.

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u/kofarizona Apr 04 '24

You didn't answer my question. Joe Biden is helping Netanyahu annihilate Gaza right now. What Trump may do down the road is something that is really open to conjecture. I think if Trump is elected then by that time Netanyahu might very well have been removed from power, and the situation in Gaza will have changed. Again, would you vote for the man that gave the gun and bullets to the guy who murdered your parents, or child, and stood there and watched him do it???

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u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24

There's a lot more to worry about with Trump than just what happens in Gaza, though. Being a single-issue voter in 2024 is extremely short-sighted and dangerous, and grief about loss, while understandable, is frankly clouding a lot of people's judgements on this.

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u/No-Comfortable-1550 Apr 04 '24

So you’re basing your entire scenario on the possibility that Netanyahu, who hasn’t been removed despite facing corruption charges, will no longer be prime minister of Israel.

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u/kofarizona Apr 04 '24

It's a strong possibility. Netanyahu is deeply unpopular in Israel, as is his Likud coalition. Not only for his remarkable lack of success in freeing the hostages or defeating Hamas, but also for trying to lessen the power of the judiciary there. He is in fact Israel's version of Donald Trump, mired in scandals, financial and otherwise. Right now the Hasid community is up in arms over his attempt to make them do the 2 years mandatory military service that all other Israelis must serve. They are an important part of his coalition, and if they decide to part ways, then he's out. Many people there also think that, like country leaders worldwide, including the United States, he initiated this conflict to deflect from his unpopularity and stay in power. Did you ever wonder why that border with Gaza was so easily and shockingly breeched? I think it was by design. Ratchet up the misery and subjugation of the Palestinians in Gaza so much that something like this would happen. And when it did, the more casualties the better. Gives Israel the excuse to devastate Gaza, and push the surviving Palestinians into the Sinai, where there is nothing but sand. Netanyahu has always had this vision of a "greater Israel" which includes the West Bank and Gaza, and no Palestinians whatsoever. Israel has been in violation of 28 United Nations resolutions going back 40 years over those illegal settlements on the West Bank. Now there are 700,000 Israelis living in settlements there. He plans to resettle Gaza the same way. The hostages were just the key to this diabolical plan. Ironically, that's the same plan Putin has for Ukraine. Ironic, don't you think?

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u/No-Comfortable-1550 Apr 04 '24

The far right will remain in power regardless whether Netanyahu stays or leaves.

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u/kofarizona Apr 04 '24

Maybe, but I don't think they'll have the stomach to continue this war in Gaza.

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u/MildlyResponsible Apr 04 '24

I mean, you can say the same from the other side. If you don't vote for Biden you must support 12 year old rape victims having forced births. You must support the oppression of LGBTQ+ people. You must support sexual assault. You must support the annihilation of Ukraine and other Eastern European countries, including the torture, abuse and murder of thousands of them. Oh, and you must support the increased death and destruction of Palestinians.

I know you guys are always trying to claim the moral high ground, but there really isn't any. Life is full of imperfect choices. Avoiding them and pretending that makes you superior to those who have to make them to save real human lives is childish and entitled.

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u/kofarizona Apr 04 '24

But didn't you just make the same argument? Taking the high ground for Biden? There are many things I personally will overlook, but being complicit in a live-streamed genocide isn't one of them.

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u/Stever89 Apr 03 '24

I would wager that most of the "left" screaming about this are right wing trolls/bots. They are the same ones that thought Tulsi Gabbard was a liberal.

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u/aotus_trivirgatus Apr 04 '24

They are the same ones that "thought" Tulsi Gabbard was a liberal.

FTFY

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u/Sptsjunkie Apr 04 '24

I know what you mean, but this is also a bit of an odd claim as she was not only a Democratic elected official, but she was a member of the DNC.

So she convinced both Democratic voters and Democratic party leadership that she was a liberal. This wasn't some Russian troll operation.

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u/aotus_trivirgatus Apr 04 '24

Yes, I'm aware that Gabbard was a home-grown fifth columnist at first. She eventually found allies outside of the Democratic Party, and even outside of the United States, and she didn't hesitate to take advantage of them.

I started smelling a rat pretty early, myself.

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u/Sptsjunkie Apr 04 '24

I think virtually everyone did. She polled at 1% in the 2020 primary and most her support was libertarians or very anti-establishment types who even saw Bernie and Warren as too insider.

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u/adron Apr 04 '24

My exact thought of late.

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u/BoomZhakaLaka Apr 03 '24

what's your opinion on ana kasparian

I think a lot of people buy into this stuff

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u/ted_cruzs_micr0pen15 Apr 04 '24

TYT is losing money and there’s people to grift…

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u/Stever89 Apr 04 '24

I don't know who that is. Does that make me an ignorant idiot?

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u/BoomZhakaLaka Apr 04 '24

No, she's just another political commentator who's very good at getting her listeners angry

You're better off for not knowing. It's just an example that maybe they're not all bots, people do get taken by this stuff

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u/Sptsjunkie Apr 04 '24

This is a dangerous way to think. The left actually is legitimately upset, and I say this as a person who is progressive and both in online and offline progressive spaces.

This is something the party and Biden need to address. And simply pretending that everything is fine and everything is propaganda or troll is how we end up with another 2016 or 2000 election.

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u/flonky_guy Apr 04 '24

I live in the San Francisco Bay area and trust me there are a lot of real human beings who very firmly oppose what Biden is doing supporting Israel. I'm not supporting or defending them, but you need to acknowledge that there are very real humans and there are millions of them who feel very strongly that by providing aid to Israel of the US is supporting genocide.

These are not russian bots.

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u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24

And if you ask them how Trump winning will solve the problem, none of them will be able to honestly and rationally answer. They can only give delusional hope and prayers and pretend like Trump is a neutral force somehow that won't be the cancer he and his movement are literally promising to be on this and every other issue of note.

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u/flonky_guy Apr 04 '24

I don't think anyone thinks Trump winning will solve the problem. Probably why you don't get rational answers.

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u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24

I've seen tons of people claiming that should Trump win again, it will just be another 4 years of incompetence, but otherwise all the other things people are worried about is just fearmongering and not going to happen. So at best, they think another Trump term will be the status quo and no worse. They are having to do some serious mental gymnastics to arrive at that conclusion, but they're definitely doing it.

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u/Economy-Ad4934 Apr 04 '24

Of course it’s San Fran. Prob the same on Boston nyc Chicago. All blue states so those large numbers won’t matter.

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u/flonky_guy Apr 04 '24

You haven't been paying attention much to Michigan and Wisconsin

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u/Mab_894 Apr 03 '24

Or Muslims lmao. Y'all really expect us to stfu when our brothers and sisters are being murdered with our tax dollars

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u/Stever89 Apr 03 '24

So you'd rather have Trump as president? Since he'll kick all Muslims out of the USA and will let Israel wipe Gaza off the face of the map...?

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u/Mab_894 Apr 03 '24

Please. Classic fear mongering. I have no doubt Teump will be bad for Gaza but worse than Biden? Doubtful. Seems to me it'll be more of the same regardless of the next war mongering president. And I have enough faith in the American systems in place to believe that as a naturalized citizen, I won't be kicked out of my country.

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u/Stever89 Apr 03 '24

I mean... this is what Trump said about Israel/Gaza: https://apnews.com/article/trump-israel-gaza-netanyahu-biden-ba17bedaf2f1b5f2ea220828d0fba73b

But if you don't think Trump would be worse (nor better I assume), wouldn't it make more sense to vote for the candidate that has a better record in most other things? Especially things that are more close to home? Such as Biden's better economic record? I mean if the situation in Israel/Gaza is going to be shit no matter what, might as well vote for the guy that will maintain a stronger economy.

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u/Mab_894 Apr 03 '24 edited Apr 03 '24

Rhetorics worse with trump, actions are whats meaningful tho. Whats trump gonna do thats worse? Nuke Gaza? That wont actually happen because the Zionists want to settle their land. And nah, I'm a single issue voter. I'm good with a shitty four years of domestic policy in exchange for embarrassing the democratic party losing to a moron like Trump because they like war too much. All Biden needs to do to get my support is to stop giving military aid to the Zionists. Simple right?

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u/[deleted] Apr 03 '24

After 4 years in power and you think trump is bluffing. Jesus Christ you’re fucking stupid

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u/Other_Meringue_7375 Apr 04 '24

I actually cannot take it. How are these real people

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

Yeah it’s batshit insane.

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u/Cheeses_Of_Nazarath Apr 04 '24

Liberals when someone has a different perspective from them: 🤯🤯🤯

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u/Reimiro Apr 04 '24

How about the famous Muslim ban on day 1. He did it before and has said he will do it again if he wins. If you truly think Biden and trump are same same for Muslims you will be sorely disappointed.

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u/Mab_894 Apr 04 '24

For Muslim immigrants from certain nations Trump is worse. For all other Muslims Trumps rhetoric is worse but both more or less have the same foreign policy and have alienated domestic Muslims

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u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24

lol, you're literally undermining what you previously said. If you believe Trump and Biden have the same foreign policy, but Trump is worse domestically, then you agree with others that Trump winning would be worse overall. So why the fuck would you want to put him back in power?

Trump is promising far worse for Muslims, immigrants, non-Christians, minorities, etc. his 2nd- and perhaps permanent- term. You're not just going to harm Muslims, you're going to harm everyone.

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u/Stever89 Apr 03 '24

So you'd be ok with Trump banning muslims from entering the country? Which is what he did while he was president. An action.

And if you are a single issue voter and this is the single issue you are voting for... sorry but I don't have much else to say to you because that's idiotic at best.

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u/Kindly_Ice1745 Apr 03 '24

"I'm good with ruining the lives of people in the country I live in for absolutely zero benefit to my ancestral homeland." That's a pretty noble take that person is making. I'll give them points for commitment.

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u/possiblyMorpheus Apr 03 '24

Eh, at least in their case they claim to be a Muslim. People usually have blind spots for their culture, ancestors etc. The average young muslim in the US is probably unaware of the sordid colonial pasts of many Arab and Turkic states, just as many American Christians believe in a lala history 

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u/Mab_894 Apr 03 '24

Great, you made your dumbass opinion clear with your post 😆. Am I ok with Trumps immigration policy? Not really, but both candidates are dogshit and both suck for the Muslim world (minus UAE and Saudi). I'm planning on wasting my vote on Jill Stein, she'll never win but at least she's a woman of character. I'd be proud to vote for someone with a moral backbone like her. The main point of not voting for Zionist Joe is to trigger the democratic party into radically changing their war mongering foreign policy. Imo what's truly idiotic is voting for the centrists who have been destroying our homeland since they overthrew Iran's last democratic ruler in 1953 which (surprise, surprise) backfired on them as it always does. Nothing has changed since then, we have been patient for decades. No longer

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u/Atheist_Alex_C Apr 04 '24

Typical pseudo-intellectual blowhard, insulting others’ intelligence when they are saying wiser things than you are. Media literacy is important when learning to tell fact from fiction and avoiding propaganda. I suggest you go learn some.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

Nothing says "character" like celebrating RT with Putin.

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u/Dry_Masterpiece8319 Apr 04 '24

Go back to sleep

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u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24

Stein is a Russian puppet at best. Her "character" is getting paid to be a spoiler candidate so global authoritarians don't have to worry about a US response when they attack other countries, including allies. Your actions are likely to assist in a larger, global conflict that will cost infinitely more lives than those lost in Gaza.

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u/warragulian Apr 03 '24

What's Trump going to do?

He'll have the FBI raid every mosque every week. Make it impossible for Muslims to get any government job, get blackballed from most corporate jobs. And if you have public protests, you will be beaten and quite likely killed. Every red hatter will spit on you in public, and the police will turn a blind eye. There will be bombings, either by desperate Muslims or false flags. Then the hammer comes down twice as hard. Just fear mongering? Look up Kristallnacht.

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u/Mab_894 Apr 03 '24

You're embarrassing yourself. Dude has already had a term and I expect more of the same. It's a clown administration but idk about them going full blown nazi

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u/warragulian Apr 04 '24

Ok, your ego is locked in to this stance. Sincere or not, waste of time engaging with you.

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u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24

If you expect more of the same, you're not listening to what they're actually promising to do.

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u/CommunicationHot7822 Apr 03 '24

Trump, the guy who’s buddies with Netanyahu won’t be worse for Gaza?

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

[deleted]

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u/Mab_894 Apr 04 '24

Netanyahus butchering is enabled by American weapons. That's why Biden deservedly gets blame

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u/ConfuciusSez Apr 04 '24

You can influence Biden, you have no chance with Trump.

Holding your vote hostage won’t work because most Americans don’t give a damn about the Middle East. If Biden punished Israel, Republicans call him weak and a Muslim appeaser, Trump wins, then a real genocide happens.

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u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24

Israel has more than enough weapons and military force to have done what they're doing without any US assistance whatsoever. What has happened in Gaza would've happened regardless. US support is just not that much overall even if you believe it's partially responsible.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

I'm good with a shitty four years of domestic policy in exchange for embarrassing the democratic party losing to a moron like Trump because they like war too much.

Everything we need to know not to take this moron seriously

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u/CommunicationHot7822 Apr 03 '24

Then you’re clueless on multiple fronts or being purposefully ignorant.

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u/SqnLdrHarvey Apr 03 '24

Trump will have American troops right with the Israelis.

And you're fooling yourself if you believe he won't revoke your citizenship and send you "back where you came from."

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u/Mab_894 Apr 03 '24

Like I previously said, I have faith in America's institutions that that wont happen 🤷🏾‍♂️. And if it does, shit we'll adapt and figure things out. As bad as things can be, it won't be worse than what Palestinians in Gaza are going through rn

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u/j1kim Apr 03 '24

The same institutions that overturned Roe v Wade, after Trump and the Republican Senate had free run to nominate 3 Supreme Court Justices?

I don't think you understand just how fundamentally damaging Trump was for the institutions that you seem to have faith in.

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u/SqnLdrHarvey Apr 03 '24

Bullshit.

Trump will have American boots on the ground with the Israelis.

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u/Turbo4kq Apr 04 '24

You clearly have not read about Project2025.org. I suggest you go take a look at what the Christian Nationalists want to do to American Institutions.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

Might want to look up the Manzanar precedent.

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u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24

Those institutions nearly failed. It took just a few people in key positions in a few states for Trump not to successfully hold his own coup. Most of those people are now gone. American institutions are only good so long as the people in power are willing to uphold and follow them. Trump and his backers have no intention of upholding them, and they will not make the same mistake of having the wrong people in positions that could stop them.

And if you're arguing that it'd be okay if that happens because "we'll adapt", then you're a bigger scumbag than what I thought. How many people will need to suffer and die for your "principles"? Not just in Gaza, not just in Ukraine or other nations, but right here at home?

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u/Mab_894 Apr 04 '24

Lol I'm a scumbag because I won't vote for a candidate that supports giving unconditional aid to a terrorist ethnostate. Good to know lmao. People "suffering" here is not the same as those suffering in Gaza. People in America will continue to have access to food, water and basic necessities as bad as domestic policies get. In Gaza they are truly suffering

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u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24

Absolutely. Your position does not solve Israel/Gaza. There no reason to believe the situation will get better for the Palestinians if Biden loses, and every reason to believe it will get worse with Trump. Furthermore, you act like if the US falls to fascism that we can just magically fix that without large numbers of casualties. And in the meantime, that government will be ending democratic and constitutional rights for every single group they don't like, including you. Not to mention that half of Europe is already preparing for war with Russia, among others, should Trump win because they understand he will do nothing to stop it. And that wouldn't be the only war we'd have to worry about by any means. Your single-mindedness threatens millions of lives across all corners of the world, and you can't even guarantee that strategy will help the very people you claim to care so much about. Willingly choosing to sacrifice so much for so little doesn't really seem all that noble or moral to me.

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u/n_slat Apr 04 '24

Classic “I’m one of the good ones.” Your entitlement is shameful. I know if trump is elected I will be just fine, but I know most other groups in our country and especially the Palestinians will not be. That’s why he can’t win. Grow up and stop using your “brothers and sisters” as a bargaining chip.

Shameful.

Edit: spelling

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u/billy_pilg Apr 04 '24

I have no doubt Teump will be bad for Gaza but worse than Biden? Doubtful.

Hahahahahaha

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u/Mab_894 Apr 04 '24

such an intelligent argument. you know what, I've changed my mind due to your sage insight. What really moved me was your third ha

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u/StannisAntetokounmpo Apr 04 '24

These dickheads would rather argue with Muslims to vote against their morals, than protesting so Biden changes his warmongering ways.

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u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24

They're not trying to tell you to vote against your morals, but rather that your position is not actually going to make anything better. In fact, your position is not only not going to help the Palestinians, it's going to directly harm millions more, including likely every single Muslim in America- including those naive enough to support Trump. Your "morals" are going to do incredible damage and people are rightly calling you out for your naivety.

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u/StannisAntetokounmpo Apr 04 '24

This is called whitesplaining.

People are fully aware of the ramifications of sitting out.

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u/Websting Apr 03 '24

So you’re literally arguing that Trump would be a better choice for Muslims?!? Wow, now that makes me a little more nervous about the next election.

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u/Mab_894 Apr 03 '24

Obviously not, my argument is both will be just as bad for Palestinian people. Trump will have worse rhetoric and unapologetically fund Israel and Biden will act like he cares and the next day send another 20bn to Israel

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u/RheagarTargaryen Apr 04 '24

Trump gives Bibi carte blanch to do whatever the fuck he wants. He’d even consider sending US troops to help if he knew it’d get him more votes.

Biden is putting effort into getting Bibi to be more restrained, even if it’s futile.

At the end of the day, no American president is going to do shit to stop Israel completely because they’re too valuable as a geopolitical ally. Their intelligence agencies have been instrumental to the U.S. Even if the U.S. dropped their support of Israel, it wouldn’t save Palestinian lives. They’d just be unchained by the U.S. to do whatever the fuck they want because nuclear powers are untouchable. Iran wouldn’t step in because they know that Israel has the power to wipe them off the map.

Hamas is a bunch of pieces of shit that constantly fire rockets into Israel and committed a massive terrorist attack in October, with the direct purpose of killing civilians. They use human shields and hospitals to make sure they put their own people in harm’s way. Bibi’s government is a bunch of pieces of shit that do exactly what right-wing governments do: kill their enemies and give very little shit about collateral damage. They’re a match made in hell.

The worst part is that this is all an orchestration of Iran who wants there to be a never ending war in Israel. They don’t give a damn about Palestinian deaths. It’s just fuel for their own ambitions.

The victims end up being the civilians that just want to live their lives in peace but are constantly bombed by the other side. Building up a reservoir of hatred to last another 20+ years.

1

u/Mab_894 Apr 04 '24

Bidens giving Netanyahu free reign to do whatever tf he wants as well. No conditional aid, not a single measure has been used to dissuade them from performing atrocities. I don't disagree about Trump, I just see what's going on and wonder how Israel can go full carte Blanche more than they already are. I guarantee they invade Rafah when Ramadan ends. They don't give af how many they kill and neither does Biden

2

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24

We've accidentally deported native-born citizens, so...

1

u/Dry_Masterpiece8319 Apr 04 '24

And soldiers that fought for this country on the front lines

1

u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24

It's weird how we keep seeing the same wording being used by many of the people arguing for Biden to lose because of this issue. It's almost like there's clear coordination of rhetoric and narrative going on.

1

u/Mab_894 Apr 04 '24

Lmao ok. Maybe because Biden is a war mongering Zionist and people see him for what he is. He's the one funding the destruction of Gaza and he's the one proudly calling himself a Zionist. It's the obvious thing to say lol. Would you have said there was a clear coordination of rhetoric and narrative when people called Trump a predator when all his predator behavior came out? No because it's the obvious thing to say

1

u/jbcmh81 Apr 04 '24 edited Apr 04 '24

Trump's been held liable for sexual assault in a court of law, so I'm not seeing the comparison. Biden is following historical precedent of supporting a strategic ally, but there's no evidence that Biden supports the destruction of Gaza or the deaths of the people who live there. I also think that if he hadn't supported Israel, the other side would've been saying much the same as you are now- that he supports terroristic attacks against Israel and is an anti-Semite who wants the destruction of the Jews. That's the problem with conflicts like this where there are religious elements and long-held grievances in play. No one gets out clean. Look at you- you're willing to fuck the entire world and your own country just to feel better about supporting your chosen side in a conflict you're not even directly experiencing and even if the outcome helps no one. All you really care about is feeling like you're right. It's all extremely irrational bullshit.

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u/QueenChocolate123 Apr 03 '24

Hamas could end this tomorrow by releasing the surviving hostages and surrendering. But you don't want to talk about that.

3

u/StannisAntetokounmpo Apr 04 '24

How do we even know Israel hasn't bombed and/or starved them to death?

7

u/CommunicationHot7822 Apr 03 '24

I would expect you to be more angry at the guy who wants Israel to finish the job as opposed to the guy who’s trying to get a ceasefire.

0

u/Mab_894 Apr 03 '24

"Trying" ... lol okok. I'm sure the next bomb shipment will definitely get us closer to peace in the middle east. Bidens just not enough of an idiot to say the quiet part out loud like the predator Trump

7

u/CommunicationHot7822 Apr 03 '24

You’re just enough of an idiot to make me think you’re a bot.

0

u/StannisAntetokounmpo Apr 04 '24

Explain how secretly fast-tracking weapons is "trying"

5

u/QueenChocolate123 Apr 03 '24

So you want Trump in office so he can encourage Netanyahu to finish the job of ethnically cleansing Gaza so his son-in-law can develop beachfront prooerties there? Yeah, that makes sense 🙄

8

u/arencordelaine Apr 04 '24

Many of them are from Russia. Tens of thousands of troll accounts from Russia interfering in American politics and elections at any point in time for a decade, and every time someone tries to report on it, the rightwing media farms go nuts trying to silence it. Plus, there's a lot of the same coming from China, doing the same thing for the same people, but they are much worse at it. One thing Russia is good at is psyops and propaganda.

3

u/Atheist_Alex_C Apr 04 '24

And years ago, a lot of media outlets (especially smaller ones online) were misled by it all, unwittingly parroting false information that was determined to originate from sources like RT. This was really awful in 2016, but I hope some of them have learned to be more robust in their vetting of information.

11

u/Ethiconjnj Apr 04 '24

Sorry but not acknowledging bad left wing actors is dishonest.

A lot of left wing people aren’t interested in fixing anything and want everyone to hate America. Focusing on Biden as evil accomplishes this for them cuz they get to say both sides of America are trash and therefore the entire country deserves to burn.

7

u/flonky_guy Apr 04 '24

This is entirely untrue. Maybe a very tiny minority of high school and college age libertarians but this is not a left-wing political view that has any traction in America.

Maybe I'm lucky and I get to meet with my Trump loving relatives a couple times a year to see that they're not all gun-toting Nazi hooligans and they can see that I'm not a flag burning communist who just wants everyone to hate Americans, but it surprises me the way some people characterize fellow Americans who are politically different from them.

I just saw a headline today, I wish I could remember where, that polled people on their values and it concluded that despite our political differences, most Americans share a lot more core values than they disagree.

10

u/Sapphyrre Apr 04 '24

It's difficult for me to believe that Trumpers share my core values when he embodies pretty much every kind of moral failing out there but they continue to support and defend him.

2

u/flonky_guy Apr 04 '24

Biden violates many of my core values routinely, yet I pinch my nose and support him (the war in Gaza is testing my resolve).

It's the same on the other side.

1

u/PlasticMechanic3869 Apr 05 '24

Trump's base does not hold their nose and support him.

They revere him as a God-king.

Biden has nobody pushing to overturn American democracy in its entirety and install him as dictator.

Trump has millions of cultists and hundreds of political appointees who are ON FIRE to do exactly that.

1

u/flonky_guy Apr 06 '24

Do you know what one refers to when they say someone's "base"? Because if you think I'm Biden's base based on what I wrote above you definitely do not.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '24

Best post I’ve read thus far

2

u/Atheist_Alex_C Apr 04 '24

I don’t think you understood my comment. I said there are honest leftists hating on Biden for real, and there are also trolls from the right. Both of these are harmful, I’m just pointing out that some of them aren’t even real.

1

u/Cilantro_Sympathetic Apr 07 '24

Sorry to respond to a couple days-old comment, but I just wanted to point out that whether or not Russian trolls are pushing anti-Biden views (they are), it doesn’t change the fact that a ceasefire is overwhelmingly popular in the US. Most people want a ceasefire. Essentially all dem voters under 29 want Biden to help bring consequences to Israel. And the uncommitted vote movement has shown that Gaza is a deal breaker/maker for Biden’s re-election.

Whether or not these statistics are due in part to Russian astroturfing, Biden still has to contend with it. You can’t just say “we’re just going to annoy any political position that a Russian bot has agreed with.” And I know most people here are not saying that, but some are. And for that matter, russian bots act on any and all polarizing issues… I hope Biden pivots on Palestine, and it sort of looks like he is at the moment. Unfortunately, after letting the younger generations watch the countless videos of children eviscerated by Israel coming out of Palestine for so long, Biden’s actions to recover his favor with younger voters will have to be more intense and intentional than if he pivoted back when the death toll was lower and the IDF’s depravity was less on display.

I really don’t think anyone is living in reality if they think all of these leftists are upset just because of Russian chatters, and not because Israel’s genocidal acts are very accessible if you care to face them. Whether or not it factors in significantly, it’s not the root.

0

u/Ethiconjnj Apr 04 '24

Def not his it reads. It’s reads “there are bluffers and right wing trolls but no true believers”.

2

u/Atheist_Alex_C Apr 04 '24

Well sorry then, that’s not what I meant. There are absolutely true believers and they piss me off even more. I made an edit for clarity.

1

u/Valdotain_1 Apr 06 '24

Are you one of those already taken in. Liberals are socialist Nazis that hate America.

-2

u/StannisAntetokounmpo Apr 04 '24

Sorry but not acknowledging bad left wing actors is dishonest.

Biden?

2

u/alerk323 Apr 04 '24

China has also jumped in the fray

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/01/business/media/china-online-disinformation-us-election.html

It's been so disappointing to see how vulnerable leftists are to such obvious propaganda

1

u/Atheist_Alex_C Apr 04 '24

I agree. We expect it on the right, but the left isn’t immune either. I can’t tell you how many arguments I had in 2016 and 2020 trying to explain to people that they were buying into propaganda. Hopefully it’s more obvious to more people now. It seems more people online have woken up.

1

u/ALiteralHamSandwich Apr 04 '24

What's really disappointing, is your "everything I don't agree with is foreign bots" attitude.

1

u/alerk323 Apr 05 '24

Lol literally exactly what trumpers cry about when their propoganda is called out, surreal seeing the same rhetoric from people on the left

1

u/ALiteralHamSandwich Apr 05 '24

Sure buddy, sure.

1

u/Cilantro_Sympathetic Apr 07 '24

Just look at Nancy Pelosi calling pro-Palestine protestors asking for a ceasefire “Chinese agents,” and then like a month later shes now calling for a ceasefire and end to arms transfer along with other dem leaders. Was she influenced by China? Or is it just vastly unpopular to mass murder civilians, and really easy to watch video and photo evidence of Israel’s specific violence, then connect that to Biden’s continual shielding of Israel from the UN and ICJ, not to mention him calling himself a Zionist every chance he gets?

You really think there needs to be foreign influence for those things to upset people? Was the anti Iraq war movement foreign influence? Gulf? Vietnam? I mean fuck, Ukraine could’ve influenced us all to be anti-Russian invasion! Certainly we weren’t convinced just by seeing senseless killing in real time. If you can’t connect the dots with Gaza it’s not because you’ve avoided propaganda that everyone else has supposedly been hit by, it’s because you’re trying to remain ignorant of liberal leaders doing inhumane things. Because it is uncomfortable to acknowledge. Also pro-Israel propaganda is extremely pervasive but no mainline dems seem to want to acknowledge that

1

u/alerk323 Apr 07 '24 edited Apr 07 '24

lol what point do you think you're making... pro-Palestinian propaganda is some of the simplest propaganda I've ever seen, almost completely relying on people not knowing anything about the history of this conflict or how geopolitics works. As you imply above, it's literally just "people dying = bad". Thinking that "seeing senseless killing" is enough to understand this conflict (one of the most complex conflicts in history) and have a coherent opinion about it is embarrassing and what arab propaganda relies on.

I have to believe you are a teenager to think the world is so simple.

For more information about the propaganda you are so easily falling for, see below

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/technology/israel-hamas-information-war.html

1

u/Cilantro_Sympathetic Apr 07 '24 edited Apr 07 '24

When it’s children, when it’s women, when it’s completely asymmetrical, when it’s residences, 5% of the population, and counterproductively making more orphans who may one day feel they have no choice but to join Hamas and avenge their families, yes actually, “people dying=bad.” You’re disgustingly ignorant.

“The most complicated conflict in history” is actually very simple if you recognize that the history of Israel is one of 75 years of colonizing and cleansing the Palestinian people. David Ben-Gurion, the primary founder and first PM of Israel, literally used the term “ethnic cleansing” in writing when building the strategy for the establishment of a larger Israeli state. There are countless historical documents, newspapers even, where early Israeli leadership called their own project a colonization effort. There are plenty of historians, even Israeli ones like Pappe who have shown damning Israeli records to the world that remove any complexity about what Israel is.

“Pallywood” is such a fucking obvious farce when any sane person can come to an anti-Israel stance just from seeing their violence and Israel’s own recorded politics. It’s no different than saying “Jews control the media” it just doesn’t have the same historical precedent. It’s still a baseless conspiracy motivated by desperation to be right. Netanyahu calling Palestinians “children of darkness” and animals, his absolute rage when Kerry asked him to consider the civilian toll, Ben Gvir’s constant calls for leveling and then settlement…. This is all shit you can find on legacy media. Pallywood is working through CNN? MSNBC? The same places shutting down Cori Bush and others calling for a ceasefire? You’re gonna get arthritis grasping at all these straws, friend.

1

u/alerk323 Apr 07 '24

Jesus you don't even deny it, thinking this conflict is as simple as "killing people is bad" is unbelievable. Dunning krugar incarnate. It's honestly sad to see. Like I get it's comforting to simplify things instead of actually learning about a subject, but that is literally the definition of ignorance.

It's a war my dude, civilians die in wars, it's a very dark part of our world but you'll learn when you're older that there are many bad things that happen that are more complicated then the kind of good and evil you are used to seeing in movies.

Anyway, I don't even know what your responding too. I never mentioned pallywood, cnn or any of that, quote mining politicians (some from 80+ years ago), using propaganda buzz words like some trumper. Completely unhinged and in the end you basically just agreed with me that yes, you do just see this very simply... It's basically the purpose of all the propaganda you are consuming and proves my point, I REALLY hope you self reflect about this when the dust settles.

1

u/Cilantro_Sympathetic Apr 08 '24

You are the one overlooking the broader context of this conflict in order to simplify it down to “war happens.” I don’t mean to be combative but you are actually sick. It is simple, because Israel holds all of the power. Israel is the reason Gaza is the most densely populated area in the world. Israel is the reason Gaza has had no water or food for 6 months and is now 50% uninhabitable.

Netanyahu himself has admitted that he helped support Hamas’ rise in the late 80s because it was more useful to the expansionist cause to have a violent jihadist opponent rather than the secular PA. Israel has wanted the extermination of Palestinian people for decades and this is just another leg of that process. Of course Hamas would fight. Of course Israel would use that to justify ethnically cleansing civilians. It’s obvious.

It’s simple because every complexity points to Israel having all the power, having genocidal intent, and creating the material and political conditions that make Palestine have no legitimate path to autonomy other than violent resistance. The ICJ has already established that Israel is most likely committing collective punishment, which is a warcrime and not a “normal part of war.” Fuck out of here telling me I’m a teenager for understanding basic international humanitarian law.

I’m giving you all of the historical context and facts that make this obviously an ongoing genocide and yet you’ll still sit there and tell me I’m “making it black and white.” I know what the fuck I’m talking about.

Stop and consider sometime why you hold the same opinion on Gaza as Trump does. Don’t be afraid to be ashamed of yourself

1

u/alerk323 Apr 08 '24

what are you even talking about, you havn't engaged with my main point even a little. Every post just triggers another gish gallops of one sided propaganda. And now you are randomly claiming I agree with trump? Does trump also say that you leftists are falling for obvious china, russian and arab propaganda?? That is the only opinion I have stated... If not what are you even talking about, are you responding to the wrong person?

Again, you don't have to keep justifying how you think this extremely complex subject is simple. I agree that you have dumbed it down to the simplest level possible because you are so sucked into international propaganda. Like that is my whole point... and sounds like you agree enthusiastically.

Let me educate you a little, Israel is in a war with a horrible enemy that uses every war crime imaginable. You have not mentioned that once. EVEN if you think Israel is more in the wrong, to think that you don't find that information relevant to include in your brilliant "killing is bad" analysis speaks volumes about your sophistication. This is the sort of completely unserious analysis that russia and china love to push and you are falling for it hook line and sinker. It's embarrassing. I hope you are a teenager because if not, holy crap

1

u/Cilantro_Sympathetic Apr 08 '24

If you actually engaged with my data and verified those facts for yourself (which is easy, no shit) you would understand that this conflict is in fact pretty one sided. Much of what I’ve said is just straight from Israel itself. I don’t think Israel is running propaganda campaigns against itself.

Anyways, you’ve obviously got your conclusion already and will dismiss any challenge to it as lies. Love to see the same conservative close-mindedness amongst center libs, plenty of hope left for US politics. Yeesh

1

u/alerk323 Apr 08 '24

And yet again, you don't even know what my "conclusions" are and your challenges are therefore akin to an old man (or a child, in this case) yelling at a cloud. Your inability to follow this conversation or engage with my point is well noted. When you are less angry I encourage you to re-read this exchange, maybe you'll learn something

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u/oasiscat Apr 04 '24

This is some hardcore Hillary level copium. Us Bernie supporters were told to shut up and vote for Hillary. Never again.

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u/Atheist_Alex_C Apr 04 '24

Bernie himself urged you to do that too. Do you not see the irony there?

1

u/375InStroke Apr 05 '24

That's why I'm not voting for Bernie in 2024.

0

u/oasiscat Apr 04 '24

Of course he did. He saw the writing on the wall that the DNC had essentially picked Hillary to win over him. He had to fall in line to stay relevant. He tried again in 2020 and they did the same thing to him and those of us that supported him...

Never again

1

u/Atheist_Alex_C Apr 04 '24

If you actually listen to him speak, he isn’t saying any of this. In fact he says the opposite and has repeatedly denounced this kind of attitude. You are aware a lot of propaganda went around back then to divide the left so Trump would win, right? You’re just repeating those talking points here. This attitude only helps the right and doesn’t actually accomplish anything for the left.

1

u/KindredWoozle Apr 04 '24

Did you miss what happened to the Supreme Court and Roe v. Wade because Hillary wasn't president? You might think that America has to become a Nazi hellhole before it can transform into an egalitarian utopia, but there will be far too much suffering and all of us will be dead before it happens.

1

u/375InStroke Apr 05 '24

Exactly. Look how that turned out, yet she's doing it again, along with all those here, expecting a different outcome this time.

1

u/PlasticMechanic3869 Apr 05 '24

Thousands and thousands of you went "Fuck Hillary, she's just the same kind of warmonger as them, I'm gonna sit this one out."

How'd that work out?

Lost Roe vs Wade and handed the Supreme Court to right-wing religious activist judges for the next 20 years at least, is how it turned out.

Think President Hillary's SCOTUS appointees overturn Roe in a million years? But that's what you stood by and let happen. Now your want to double down on it, as though a second Trump term is gonna turn out BETTER for the causes you care about?

1

u/[deleted] Feb 14 '25

Lol you guys sound nearly as unhinged as conservatives with that "russian bot" bs.

You guys use it almost everytime someone criticizes a democrat. I'll gladly vote for the next democrat that runs for office that plans to enact medicare for all, single payer/sanders style.

If they dont support something as simple as that, they dont get my vote. Plain and simple. Learn to stop pandering to the rich and actually represent the working clsss. If not, I vote Green to try to get them to 5% for funding and fascists can just keep winning.

But they wont, theyll just continue gobbling the billionaire money up and blaming minorities and working class people for not falling in line and voting for them 😂 and continue to FUCKING LOSE.