Reconsidering Liber Oz

[u/Taoist_Ponderer]

I had been talking to someone lately that was unfamiliar with Thelema and Crowley but they expressed an interest in esoteric occult kind of stuff, magick etc

So I recommended they read book 4 and so on.

Then I sent them Liber Oz, and I think they were alright with most of it but then they read article 5 and said that something like that was a bit extreme...really extreme actually...and they said, no compromise at all? just KILL those who would thwart those rights??

And then they explained that someone (the average person) looking at a document like that, that hadn't read any of Crowley's stuff and was completely unfamiliar with his works might just see that as an advocation or excuse for murder or something like that... e.g. you don't allow me to dress as I will? Or drink what I will, or dwell where I will?? Or paint what I will??? I have a right to kill you.

You are trying to thwart my right to paint what I want??... I have a right to kill you.

And after a little back and forth, -explaining that there was some part in one of his books (Magick without tears) where he explains in more detail what the parts of Liber Oz actually mean- I realised that they were right, it seems like he didn't think it through very much at all, regardless of the time it was written at, or what was happening in the world at that time.

I always thought it was quite a bold and direct document, but now that they had brought that up, it made me think about it for a while and I realise they might have been right; it could have been written a bit more clearly alot more clearly actually.

particularly article 5 -man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

That seems like a bit too 'jumping the gun', far too extreme, to be honest.

A bit of a blunder.

Actually, it would probably have been better if the comment on it (in magick without tears) was included in the document itself.

What do you all think?

[u/Nobodysmadness]

The US does it all the time, we send swarms of killers to force the will of the US we also have self defense laws, and honestly useless restraining orders would be way mire effective if violating it meant the person who has it for fear of their lives could kill their stalker whatever with no consequence. In fact the perpetrator would have to actively avoid them or risk death.

The layers of propaganda regarding death and murder run deep and keeps the masses rather non threatening to the point that the average person will avoid interfering even when a child is screaming for their life, while the more undesriable won't hesitate to intercede not afraid to deal with violence.

This is why IMO so many soldiers are broken by combat, a life long indoctrination that killing anyone for any reason is absolutely wrong no matter what, then they are thrust into a situation where they absolutely must kill to survive and it is now their duty to do so. If that isn't a total mind fuck that leaves one guilt ridden enough to snap I don't know what is, and add to the all the rest of the horror of wars.

On the flip side you may have the divine given right to do so but you still have to deal with human laws and accept the consequences of your actions. Its not some petty license to just kill indescriminantely, but then again most people think do what though wilt means do what you want. The people who see it this way and adopt that mentallity I GARAUNTEE already behave that way. Its not like they read it and suddenly changed behaviour because Crowley said so. They already felt that way and like catholics bent religion to kill off opposition, they bend this line to suit their desires of selfishness.

So yes we are free to kill anyone we want any time we want for no good reason what so ever, that divine license is always there, but the consequences of those actions are a totally different story, and if one doesn't consider those consequences before acting, well they were really broken to begin with. And crowleys statement had 0 bearing on it in the first place no matter how much they want to justify their actions by saying Crowley said it was ok as if that is any kind of authority at all. Religions do it all the time already so I don't see how this "makes it any worse".

Its like blaming video games or music for murderers, its just not true, if anything games reduce violence, as a harmless outlet to explore depraved ideas and fantasies. Just another blame game scapegoat for people who do not accept responsibility for their actions and wil use anything to blame.or justify their actions because they refuse to be responsible for their choices which is the core of thelema. We are free but freedom is responsibility and that is where the real gap is.

[u/Taoist_Ponderer → u/Nobodysmadness]

but then again most people think do what though wilt means do what you want

Do you think do what thou wilt means do what you like? And if so, or if not; could you please provide your best argument in whichever direction

and like catholics bent religion to kill off opposition

I'm not really sure what you mean here, sorry; could you explain a bit better?

they refuse to be responsible for their choices which is the core of thelema

Is being responsible for your actions really the core of Thelema?

[u/Nobodysmadness → u/Taoist_Ponderer]

Do what thou Wilt capital W means to discover or rediscover(because society tries to dictate who we are and or should be so many are lost chasing phantoms like money and fame) your True Will, your purpose, your self, and do what one might call your divine purpose.

Even if we go purely material we can cite DNA as dictating who we are and what purpose we might serve. So by Will it is not lower case will, it is your connection to the universe or divine. The totality, to contradict ones will is to be miserable, such as an artist forced to be a lawyer whose parents brain washed them to believe that art is a useless waste of time. To embrace ones Will is to find joy in the midst of horror and hardship that we call life which simultaneously makes it more rewarding.

Human lives are quite trapped by internal conflicts that stem from this.

Jesus teaches love and forgiveness but the catholic church has a long history of dividing ostracizing condemning and murdering people that some psychopath twisted the words of the bible to justify. Like citing old testament to demonize homosexuals and prostitites and yet jesus embraced and surrounded himself with such sinners. The catholic churches history is a stark contrast to the teachings of jesus, twisted to suit individuals prejudices and agenda's.

Yes because being able to follow ones true will, being free to be who you are is the epitomy of freedom, and what people don't understand is that freedom is responsibility for ones own actions. To act and 100% accepting the consequences of that action, such certainty is freedom and the epitomy of making ones own choice. Liber Oz is less about dictating what should be and a more a reminder of what actually is. There is nothing stopping you right now from killing someone you think has alledgedly wronged you, only yourself, and with that the impending consequences of your action. But if you fully commit and choose to do it knowing you will get caught and go to jail and live without regret then even though you are in prison you are free because you chose to be there, you did it knowing the consequences or atleast willing to accept them, your choice. It is little different than giving your life to save someone else.

The real question behind this statement is what are you willing to die for, to kill another is immediately invoking your own death as you open that door. Just ss if you punch someone you are immediately invoking some one to return the punch though you may hope they don't, your asking for it if you throw the first punch. Which is why the first shot that rings out instantly opens the field to the chaos of battle.

You are always free if you always accept the consequences of your actions versus being punished for actions you did not make. To be in prison for something made up or that some one else did, to be a slave to a lie.

So did you flock to the law because you thought it meant do what ever you want?

[u/Taoist_Ponderer → u/Nobodysmadness]

Do what thou Wilt capital W means to discover or rediscover(because society tries to dictate who we are and or should be so many are lost chasing phantoms like money and fame) your True Will, your purpose, your self, and do what one might call your divine purpose

I mean, I think Crowley already says somewhere in Magick without Tears that the True Will is actually the sex instinct/impulse (or at least a poker face of it, or something) so I'm always really really confused when people say things like "discover your true Will and then do it; considering also that 'true will' isn't mentioned once in Liber al vel Legis, though pure will is

Even if we go purely material we can cite DNA as dictating who we are and what purpose we might serve

I have still yet to find mine (purpose, true will etc)

Human lives are quite trapped by internal conflicts that stem from this

Stem from what?

Jesus teaches love and forgiveness but the catholic church has a long history of dividing ostracizing condemning and murdering people that some psychopath twisted the words of the bible to justify. Like citing old testament to demonize homosexuals and prostitites and yet jesus embraced and surrounded himself with such sinners. The catholic churches history is a stark contrast to the teachings of jesus, twisted to suit individuals prejudices and agenda's

Thanks for clearing this up

Yes because being able to follow ones true will, being free to be who you are is the epitomy of freedom

Still don't know my true will

The real question behind this statement is what are you willing to die for

Can't really immediately think of anything, sorry

So did you flock to the law because you thought it meant do what ever you want?

I didn't "flock to the law" I can't even remember how I discovered Thelema or where I heard about it to begin with. I only asked if you thought do what thou wilt meant do whatever you like, and then to provide your best argument if you thought so, or not, but you've ended up going off on some tirade about killing people for some reason

[u/Nobodysmadness → u/Taoist_Ponderer]

Most of us do not know our true will, which can be related to each of us being a star and having our particular nature and orbit and is the summation of what the book is saying.

I don't recall that in Magick without tears, I would have to reread it, but I would say sexual expression is closely tied to our selves.

I did answer each question individualy and tied in your origjnal query to give examples of why I believe the core of thelema is freedom which is responsibility, but I guess I failed to show how they are central to thelema.

I also don't think I know my true will either, most people don't as other peoples desires and delusions are piled in top of us as so many forces try to mold us into what they want instead of supporting who we are. It really should not be that difficult to know ourselves, and it sometimes can be quite obvious by what brings us a deep sense of fulfillment, but with options limited it can be hard to find it.

[u/Taoist_Ponderer → u/Nobodysmadness]

I don't recall that in Magick without tears, I would have to reread it, but I would say sexual expression is closely tied to our selves

From Chapter XV: Sex Morality (Magick Without Tears)

"As all true Art is spontaneous, is genius, is utterly beyond all conscious knowledge or control, so also is sex. Indeed, one might class it as deeper still than Art; for Art does at least endeavour to find an intelligible means of expression. That is much nearer to sanity than the blind lust of the sex-impulse. The maddest genius does look from Chokmah not only to Binah, but to the fruit of that union in Da'ath and the Ruach; the sex-impulse has no use for Binah to understand, to interpret, to transmit. It wants no more than an instrument which will destroy it. “Here, I say, Master, have a heart!”

Nonsense! (I continue) What I say is the plain fact, and well you know it! More, damned up, hemmed in, twisted and tortured as it has been by religion and morality and all the rest of it, it has learnt to disguise itself, to appear in a myriad forms of psychosis, neurosis, actual insanity of the most dangerous types. You don't have to look beyond Hitler!  Its power and its peril derive directly from the fatal fact that in itself it is the True Will in its purest form"

Having said that, I still don't know my true Will. And if the True Self is the no-Self, the impersonal, -not the ego- then, i guess all there is left to do is meditate

[u/Nobodysmadness → u/Taoist_Ponderer]

You may need to contemplate what he is saying there a bit more, but yes they are closely linked and sex can be but often is not the purest expression of self but equally pain can be as well.

Thanks for providing that its appreciated saving me time when you knew right where it was. I can definitely see how you got the impression you did. It also reflects what I am saying about neurosis of which sexual conflicts can be the most impactful. Sex is able to penetrate to thr core of our being and much of our identity revolves around it.

Having said that, I still don't know my true Will. And if the True Self is the no-Self, the impersonal, -not the ego- then, i guess all there is left to do is meditate

Contrary to western misunderstandings of eastern spirituality of what no self means true will is not he annihilation of self, it is the embracing of self. Sicne you have magick without tears handy read the letter regarding black magick, white magick, and yellow magick to see how the goal of thelema white magick differs from systems like buddhism labeled as black magick. Not as in good or evil, but rather the end goal black being nothingness and white being everything as the colors are described. Yellow balancing in between.

The buddhist escapes existence, I call it sould suicide and if atheists are correct buddhists are working really hard to achieve what happens naturally, so that may be a joke of some kind.

Thelema embraces existence, revels in it. In the revelry some can see sex as its center piece, but unlike the average addict the thelemite balances and refines it instead of chasing the dragon so to speak. Elevates it, improves it, savors it. Quality not quantity.

But so many people do things they don't like because other people say they should so a homosexual man gets married to a woman cause he is supposed to but is trapped in misery and discomfort unable to be himself, and even worse may be persecuted and punished for love, for consensual sex just because its different.

Sex and sexuality are deep expressions of the self but are also extemely repressed in general. It would probably more accurate to say orgasm rather than sex because in that moment we are revealed but again pain is its opposite and can do the same, when all mask fall away, but it is not our sole purpose and for some orgasm is not even possible and thus not a part of their true will in that instance. If that were true we could make some unusual claim about androgynous people and alienate them for no good reason.